POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

[Ragdoll]

"The floodgates are nothing more than an ancient expression about the clouds releasing rain."-ragdoll

On what basis do you make this claim? And when the windows of the firmament close and restrain the rain, what is that? Just because you don't like what scripture says, doesn't mean you can just mark it off as an "ancient expression". It is not just a metaphorical "expression", it's an ancient near-east description of the cosmos.

It's a radially leftist attempt to twist Scripture. There is no evidence to support a single claim that ANE makes. There are no ancient scholars or reputable modern scholars who support ANE. That is because ANE is a heresy.

"See, the reality is that many, if not all ancient cultures believed in a solid dome, so to turn and say "oh, the windows opening and closing is just a figure of speech", this requires some kind of justification.

The Bible is not the word of culture. It's the word of God. ANE tries to turn the Bible into the word of culture. There are many expressions in Hebrew that mean something different than what some English readers think they mean. There is a whole list of Hebrew expressions ANE gets wrong.

God also placed the stars in the firmament. The stars aren't in the sky, nor are they in Earth's atmosphere as you've depicted space shuttles. And so you see, scripture actually describes ANE cosmology.

ANE claims God placed the stars in the earthly sky. This is a heresy. The space shuttle picture was not connected to Genesis 1. You simply aren't paying any attention to anything I write so I'm going to move on from here. I don't like talking to myself. I'm writing replies and you aren't reading them. Very rude.

Also, regarding harmony in Genesis, I think there is perfect harmony in the view of a raqia being solid. Personally, I think that we do Genesis a disservice by assuming non literal or metaphorical meanings to things like these windows

No harmony at all.

 

[Job 33:6]

It's a radially leftist attempt to twist Scripture. There is no evidence to support a single claim that ANE makes. There are no ancient scholars or reputable modern scholars who support ANE. That is because ANE is a heresy.



The Bible is not the word of culture. It's the word of God. ANE tries to turn the Bible into the word of culture. There are many expressions in Hebrew that mean something different than what some English readers think they mean. There is a whole list of Hebrew expressions ANE gets wrong.



ANE claims God placed the stars in the earthly sky. This is a heresy. The space shuttle picture was not connected to Genesis 1. You simply aren't paying any attention to anything I write so I'm going to move on from here. I don't like talking to myself. I'm writing replies and you aren't reading them. Very rude.



No harmony at all.

So, when scripture says that windows or floodgates opened, letting water through, and then at the end of the flood, they close and restrain the waters.

I say that scripture meant what it said, in that there is a firmament, described throughout the old testament like ice, like brilliant crystal, like pavement, like molten metal, like sapphire, all physical adjectives, therefore something of a physical nature was holding back or restraining the heavenly waters, just as scripture says and means when it suggests that the windows restrained the water when the windows closed. And much further, cultures around the world had similar beliefs of a firmament of a solid nature. Thereby further justifying the plausibility of this interpretation. This is letting scripture speak into scripture in the purest sense by observing a dozen verses with adjectives and words all describing a solid nature of the firmament.

You say oh, it's just some sort of metaphorical figure of speech used by the ancients and scripture doesn't actually mean what it says but rather means something else about clouds, which are made of gas, opening and closing and releasing and restraining rain. Without providing any justification at all for this metaphorical interpretation.

And somehow I'm the one twisting scripture?

Then you go further by suggesting that a dozen Bible translations were actually written by liberal atheists, however each of those translations were authored by Christian authorities. So you're just calling all these Christian scholars atheists just because they don't accept the interpretive and subjective metaphorical language that you do.

Just because you don't like what scripture says, doesn't mean you get to just go around calling everyone atheists and suggesting that it's verses are metaphorical and don't actually mean what they say.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yes they did.

You edited out what you said that I replied to. In your added parts, you tell what "translations" say, but the original does not, nor did the Author of all Scripture intend to say it.
You cannot put words in that men say, in spite of what God says.
Paradise is on the Holy Mount of God in the stretched out heavens. In fact, Scripture says it is in the third heaven.
The firmament is named by the Creator on day two, "Two Waters", Hebrew "Sha-Mayim", because one HALF of the primal waters of creation are stretched out above the heavens.

Those waters are still above the heavens, and out of them an atmospheric river flows to water Paradise, in Eden above, and then divides to be four heads of four rivers on earth below.
Atmospheric rivers can carry more water than the Amazon.

 

[Ragdoll]

So, when scripture says that windows or floodgates opened, letting water through, and then at the end of the flood, they close and restrain the waters.

I say that scripture meant what it said, in that there is a firmament, described throughout the old testament like ice, like brilliant crystal, like pavement, like molten metal, like sapphire, all physical adjectives, therefore something of a physical nature was holding back or restraining the heavenly waters, just as scripture says and means when it suggests that the windows restrained the water when the windows closed. And much further, cultures around the world had similar beliefs of a firmament of a solid nature. Thereby further justifying the plausibility of this interpretation. This is letting scripture speak into scripture in the purest sense by observing a dozen verses with adjectives and words all describing a solid nature of the firmament.

You say oh, it's just some sort of metaphorical figure of speech used by the ancients and scripture doesn't actually mean what it says but rather means something else about clouds, which are made of gas, opening and closing and releasing and restraining rain. Without providing any justification at all for this metaphorical interpretation.

And somehow I'm the one twisting scripture?

Then you go further by suggesting that a dozen Bible translations were actually written by liberal atheists, however each of those translations were authored by Christian authorities. So you're just calling all these Christian scholars atheists just because they don't accept the interpretive and subjective metaphorical language that you do.

Just because you don't like what scripture says, doesn't mean you get to just go around calling everyone atheists and suggesting that it's verses are metaphorical and don't actually mean what they say.

Again, the word is "expanse." There is no firmament mentioned in Hebrew nor does the Hebrew allude to it. I gave you lexicon definition from the best lexicon out there and you ignored it. Many of us know the difference between liberal/woke Christianity and real Christianity. There are many expressions in Hebrew that do not mean what you think they mean. The floodgates are merely expressing the clouds releasing rain. But you want to take it in a literal 21st century English speaking manner that contradicts the meaning of raqiya.

ANE is not teaching creationism. ANE badly twist the Bible for the purpose of sneakily teaching evolution in a subtle manner (Gen.3:1) as to cause mass apostasy in the Christian faith. All Christians know this. Why don't you know this? Why can't you accept correction? Why can't you accept sound doctrine?

There are over 68 globe earth verses in the Bible. ANE teaches flat earth. Why do you trust liberalism?

 

[Job 33:6]

Again, the word is "expanse." There is no firmament mentioned in Hebrew nor does the Hebrew allude to it. I gave you lexicon definition from the best lexicon out there and you ignored it. Many of us know the difference between liberal/woke Christianity and real Christianity. There are many expressions in Hebrew that do not mean what you think they mean. The floodgates are merely expressing the clouds releasing rain. But you want to take it in a literal 21st century English speaking manner that contradicts the meaning of raqiya.

ANE is not teaching creationism. ANE badly twist the Bible for the purpose of sneakily teaching evolution in a subtle manner (Gen.3:1) as to cause mass apostasy in the Christian faith. All Christians know this. Why don't you know this? Why can't you accept correction? Why can't you accept sound doctrine?

There are over 68 globe earth verses in the Bible. ANE teaches flat earth. Why do you trust liberalism?

Let's look again at some verses on the firmament.

 

[Ragdoll]

Let's look again at some verses on the firmament.

Lets not. You are not polite to converse with.

 

[Job 33:6]

Let's look again at some verses on the firmament.

And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.”
Genesis 1:6 LEB
A physical barrier holding back waters above.

So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
Genesis 1:7 LEB
(Waters held above the dome, restrained by windows suggesting a solid nature to this dome).

And God called the vaulted dome “heaven.” And there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:8 LEB


And God said, “Let there be lights in the vaulted dome of heaven to separate day from night, and let them be as signs and for appointed times, and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14 LEB
(The stars are placed in the dome, equidistantly just as ANE suggests in a snow-globe cosmology.)

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the waters prevailed overwhelmingly upon the earth, and they covered all the high mountains which were under the entire heaven.
Genesis 7:11‭, ‬19 LEB
(Again, the physical solid windows opened to release the restrained water, again suggesting a physical nature to this dome).


And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained. And the waters receded from the earth gradually, and the waters abated at the end of one hundred and fifty days.
Genesis 8:2‭-‬3 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)

What Does the Bible Say About Firmament?

with him can you spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)


Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens.
Psalms 148:4 LEB
(Remember, the stars were placed in the heavens, so this means waters above the stars, which aligns with ANE cosmology. Water restrained by windows etc. Again suggesting a solid dome or a dome of solid nature.)

He is the one who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; the one who stretches out the heavens like a veil and spreads them out like a tent to live in,
Isaiah 40:22 LEB
(Like a tent, like a veil, above a circle of the earth. All descriptive words indicating a snow-globe cosmology)
who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and lays the foundation of his vault on the earth, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them on the surface of the earth—Yahweh is his name.
Amos 9:6 LEB
(Chambers in accordance with ANE which release water to cause the flood of Genesis)

Thick clouds are a covering for him, so that he does not see; and he walks about on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14 LEB
Similar to the following verse suggesting physical attributes of a solid dome. People observed God walking in human form atop the dome as also described in Ezekiel.

And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)


Now the likeness above the heads of the living creatures was an expanse like the outward appearance of awesome ice spread out above their heads upward
Ezekiel 1:22 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)

And there was a sound from above the expanse that was above their heads, and when they stood they lowered their wing
Ezekiel 1:25 LEB
(Again, sound from above the expanse suggesting that it wasn't millions of light-years away in accordance with ANE)

“The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke
Job 26:11 LE
(Pillars of heaven, in agreement with ANE in which pillars hold up the heavens)

And from above the expanse that was above their heads there was the likeness of a throne, looking like a sapphire, and above the likeness of the throne was a likeness similar to the appearance of a human on it, but above
Ezekiel 1:26 LEB
(Above the expanse, meaning that it isn't in deep space some far off distance away)


Literally every single verse that gives any sort of description or detail about the firmament suggests that it is indeed firm and has some kind of solid property or quality to it.

 

[Job 33:6]

And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.”
Genesis 1:6 LEB
A physical barrier holding back waters above.

So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
Genesis 1:7 LEB
(Waters held above the dome, restrained by windows suggesting a solid nature to this dome).

And God called the vaulted dome “heaven.” And there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:8 LEB


And God said, “Let there be lights in the vaulted dome of heaven to separate day from night, and let them be as signs and for appointed times, and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14 LEB
(The stars are placed in the dome, equidistantly just as ANE suggests in a snow-globe cosmology.)

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the waters prevailed overwhelmingly upon the earth, and they covered all the high mountains which were under the entire heaven.
Genesis 7:11‭, ‬19 LEB
(Again, the physical solid windows opened to release the restrained water, again suggesting a physical nature to this dome).


And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained. And the waters receded from the earth gradually, and the waters abated at the end of one hundred and fifty days.
Genesis 8:2‭-‬3 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)

What Does the Bible Say About Firmament?

with him can you spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)


Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens.
Psalms 148:4 LEB
(Remember, the stars were placed in the heavens, so this means waters above the stars, which aligns with ANE cosmology. Water restrained by windows etc. Again suggesting a solid dome or a dome of solid nature.)

He is the one who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; the one who stretches out the heavens like a veil and spreads them out like a tent to live in,
Isaiah 40:22 LEB
(Like a tent, like a veil, above a circle of the earth. All descriptive words indicating a snow-globe cosmology)
who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and lays the foundation of his vault on the earth, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them on the surface of the earth—Yahweh is his name.
Amos 9:6 LEB
(Chambers in accordance with ANE which release water to cause the flood of Genesis)

Thick clouds are a covering for him, so that he does not see; and he walks about on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14 LEB
Similar to the following verse suggesting physical attributes of a solid dome. People observed God walking in human form atop the dome as also described in Ezekiel.

And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)


Now the likeness above the heads of the living creatures was an expanse like the outward appearance of awesome ice spread out above their heads upward
Ezekiel 1:22 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)

And there was a sound from above the expanse that was above their heads, and when they stood they lowered their wing
Ezekiel 1:25 LEB
(Again, sound from above the expanse suggesting that it wasn't millions of light-years away in accordance with ANE)

“The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke
Job 26:11 LE
(Pillars of heaven, in agreement with ANE in which pillars hold up the heavens)

And from above the expanse that was above their heads there was the likeness of a throne, looking like a sapphire, and above the likeness of the throne was a likeness similar to the appearance of a human on it, but above
Ezekiel 1:26 LEB
(Above the expanse, meaning that it isn't in deep space some far off distance away)


Literally every single verse that gives any sort of description or detail about the firmament suggests that it is indeed firm and has some kind of solid property or quality to it.

And not only that but ancient cultures around the world held the very same or similar view of this dome.

Not only the scripture suggested with its very own words, but this interpretation is also supported externally by sources as well.

And the only real alternative position is to say that scripture doesn't mean what it says and that it's all just some giant metaphor. And I just can't accept making scripture, God's word, out to be one giant subjective allegory.

I take scripture at it's word. It's unequivocally demonstrated by the overwhelming number of verses that support a solid nature to the dome. And hand waving all of this evidence away and calling countless Bible translators and scholars all a bunch of liberal atheists, just isn't a valid response. And saying that it's the sky doesn't apply because the stars are placed in it, and saying that it's deep space also doesn't make sense because people could hear and see God in human form above it. And the flood waters were also above it.

The only logical explanation for these verses, is a dome of some kind of solid nature, just like what was believed in dozens of other cultures worldwide at the time in which Genesis was written. Remember, mankind was inspired to write scripture, but that doesn't mean that mankind instantly became 21st century astrophysicists who were in actuality describing the earth's electromagnetic field lol. They still retained some historical influence.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...
I take scripture at it's word...
.

No. You do not.
Read my post, please, which you obviously did not.
The half of the cut in two waters that the Creator commanded the firmament -which firmament was then named TWO WATERS-English "heavens", are still above the stretched out - in stories- heavens. The Scriptures state that Paradise, the Garden of Mount Eden above, is in the 3rd stretched out layer/story of the heavens.
The river out of Eden above is from the waters above the heavens, and is an atmospheric river that makes the headwaters of 4 rivers below, on earth.
Look up atmospheric rivers, to understand the river that watered the Garden in Paradise.
Look up Paradise in the third heaven.
Paul went there.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The face of the stretched out heavens is where the birds fly. Genesis 1.
The third story in the stretched out heavens is where Paradise on the heavenly Mount Eden (Zion above), is.
Above the stories of the stretched out heavens
Is half the primal waters of creation in which waters, Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam, said the stars/constellations run their courses.

 

[Ragdoll]

And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters, and let it cause a separation between the waters.”
Genesis 1:6 LEB
A physical barrier holding back waters above.

So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
Genesis 1:7 LEB
(Waters held above the dome, restrained by windows suggesting a solid nature to this dome).

And God called the vaulted dome “heaven.” And there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:8 LEB


And God said, “Let there be lights in the vaulted dome of heaven to separate day from night, and let them be as signs and for appointed times, and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14 LEB
(The stars are placed in the dome, equidistantly just as ANE suggests in a snow-globe cosmology.)

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the waters prevailed overwhelmingly upon the earth, and they covered all the high mountains which were under the entire heaven.
Genesis 7:11‭, ‬19 LEB
(Again, the physical solid windows opened to release the restrained water, again suggesting a physical nature to this dome).


And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained. And the waters receded from the earth gradually, and the waters abated at the end of one hundred and fifty days.
Genesis 8:2‭-‬3 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)

What Does the Bible Say About Firmament?

with him can you spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)


Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens.
Psalms 148:4 LEB
(Remember, the stars were placed in the heavens, so this means waters above the stars, which aligns with ANE cosmology. Water restrained by windows etc. Again suggesting a solid dome or a dome of solid nature.)

He is the one who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; the one who stretches out the heavens like a veil and spreads them out like a tent to live in,
Isaiah 40:22 LEB
(Like a tent, like a veil, above a circle of the earth. All descriptive words indicating a snow-globe cosmology)
who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and lays the foundation of his vault on the earth, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them on the surface of the earth—Yahweh is his name.
Amos 9:6 LEB
(Chambers in accordance with ANE which release water to cause the flood of Genesis)

Thick clouds are a covering for him, so that he does not see; and he walks about on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14 LEB
Similar to the following verse suggesting physical attributes of a solid dome. People observed God walking in human form atop the dome as also described in Ezekiel.

And they saw the God of Israel, and what was under his feet was like sapphire tile work and like the very heavens for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)


Now the likeness above the heads of the living creatures was an expanse like the outward appearance of awesome ice spread out above their heads upward
Ezekiel 1:22 LEB
(A physical adjective suggesting a solid structure)

And there was a sound from above the expanse that was above their heads, and when they stood they lowered their wing
Ezekiel 1:25 LEB
(Again, sound from above the expanse suggesting that it wasn't millions of light-years away in accordance with ANE)

“The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke
Job 26:11 LE
(Pillars of heaven, in agreement with ANE in which pillars hold up the heavens)

And from above the expanse that was above their heads there was the likeness of a throne, looking like a sapphire, and above the likeness of the throne was a likeness similar to the appearance of a human on it, but above
Ezekiel 1:26 LEB
(Above the expanse, meaning that it isn't in deep space some far off distance away)


Literally every single verse that gives any sort of description or detail about the firmament suggests that it is indeed firm and has some kind of solid property or quality to it.

Here again you refuse to use good translations and insist on using liberal translations which are very poorly translated.

The pillars of heaven have a few different meanings. It can mean angels or saints depending on the context. Job 26:7 actually does address the earth's position in space and that clearly says there is nothing holding up the earth. This is also how the ancient Jews and Christians understood it. So ANE is without excuse. You do not strike me as the type of person to accept sound doctrine.

And by the way, there is a verse that mentions the pillars of the earth pertaining to saints that uses the word tebel in that verse. I can't think of it at the top of my head but can dig it out if need. ANE teaches flat earth. But there is no flat earth with tebel. So ANE drops the ball, once again, by contradicting Scripture.

 

[Ragdoll]

Here we go, I found it.


1 Samuel 2:8 -- English

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the dust, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hyll: to sett them amonge princes, and to enherett them with the seate of glorye. For the pillers of the erth are the lordes, and he hath sett the rounde worlde vpon them" (1539 Great Bible).

"Raising up the weak from the dust, he will raise up the needy from the dung-hill to sit with the noble, and he will cause them to inherit a throne of glory, for to Jehovah the castings of the earth, and he will put the habitable globe upon them" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

These pillars are the saints for God raises them up out of the dong hill and makes them pillars of faith, the pillars of the earth. That's what the expression means. In the New Testament, the Apostles are referred to as pillars. It's an expression and not to be taken in the literal 21st century English scientific sense. It's Hebrew....not English.

The phrase "round world" is translated from tebel.

Hebrew Masoretic Text:

מקים מעפר דל מאשׁפת ירים אביון להושׁיב עם נדיבים וכסא כבוד ינחלם כי ליהוה מצקי ארץ וישׁת עליהם תבל

Word: תבל - H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

"world, earth, globe"
תבל - Translation into English - examples Hebrew | Reverso Context

Old Testament Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible.

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].
The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: the habibitable globe
H8398 - tēḇēl - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).
OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).
Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141) ; --> 'eres (earth, land, #824) ; --> têbêl (world, #9315) ."

Breakdown of Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe, οἰκουμένη"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"

AND

"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

 

[Ragdoll]

I can't believe I'm posting information already found on this forum and on this topic! Nobody should have to do that. There is a lot of information posted on this topic already, long before I joined. Why is it that you argue against sound doctrine?


2 Timothy 4:3-4

3 For the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine, but they will gather to themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, having itching ears, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn to myths.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 MEV - For the time will come when people will - Bible Gateway

Prophecy captures all modern attitudes - including those who deliberately want to deviate from sound doctrine.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I can't believe I'm posting information already found on this forum and on this topic! Nobody should have to do that. There is a lot of information posted on this topic already, long before I joined. Why is it that you argue against sound doctrine?


2 Timothy 4:3-4

3 For the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine, but they will gather to themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, having itching ears, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn to myths.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 MEV - For the time will come when people will - Bible Gateway

Prophecy captures all modern attitudes - including those who deliberately want to deviate from sound doctrine.

They do not believe, but in a forum like this, they are shown to not believe the Word of God. Good job!
Now one thing that I have about your posts though, is that though the world is a globe, it is stationary, fixed in place, and the sun, moon, and stars themselves have fixed, ordained courses (paths) that they run in the heavens. The sun runs it course around the globe daily ( a day is 18 parts in God's calendar, though, not 24 hours, and Enoch shows the exact path of the sun and moon around the earth, with 360 numbered calendar days counted with their parts, and 4 stop (sabbath) days not counted in the year's days with their parts, but added as to the number of days in a year at the end of the year, making a perfect 364 days in a year.
The two equinox's and two solstices are not numbered in the calendar, and at each of the seasons, the sun appears to stop traversing it's path because at the head of each season, it runs the same course for two straight days before changing the course/path.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here again you refuse to use good translations and insist on using liberal translations which are very poorly translated.

The pillars of heaven have a few different meanings. It can mean angels or saints depending on the context. Job 26:7 actually does address the earth's position in space and that clearly says there is nothing holding up the earth. This is also how the ancient Jews and Christians understood it. So ANE is without excuse. You do not strike me as the type of person to accept sound doctrine.
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And by the way, there is a verse that mentions the pillars of the earth pertaining to saints that uses the word tebel in that verse. I can't think of it at the top of my head but can dig it out if need. ANE teaches flat earth. But there is no flat earth with tebel. So ANE drops the ball, once again, by contradicting Scripture.

Circles are round and compasses make round circles.

These verses aren't talking about a sphere at all. They're talking about a round disk, hence why scripture says that God sits upon the disk of the earth.
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:22 NASB2020
Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to live in. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Also, flat earths can float in space or can be suspended over nothing just as spherical Earth's can.

None of this addresses the dozen verses all suggesting a solid "firm"ament

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Circles are round and compasses make round circles.

These verses aren't talking about a sphere at all. They're talking about a round disk, hence why scripture says that God sits upon the disk of the earth.
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:22 NASB2020
Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to live in. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Also, flat earths can float in space or can be suspended over nothing just as spherical Earth's can.

None of this addresses the dozen verses all suggesting a solid "firm"ament

The circle of the earth is the heavens. Earth is the center of creation.
God's temple prepared in the heavens revolves around the globe once each "Day" and the inhabitants of earth are as grasshoppers to Him from in His temple, in heaven.
The created temple set in the "circle=revolving heavens" is set in the created "menorah" which was set in the stretched out heavens from the earth on day 4 of creation week.
That is Bible doctrine.
He has set His temple in the sun, says the Psalmist,
Psalm 18: translated from Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, to English states:
"6 He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he, as a bridegroom coming out of his bride chamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way:

7 His going out is from the end of heaven, And his CIRCUIT even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.

 

[Job 33:6]

The circle of the earth is the heavens. Earth is the center of creation.
God's temple prepared in the heavens revolves around the globe once each "Day" and the inhabitants of earth are as grasshoppers to Him from in His temple, in heaven.
The created temple set in the "circle=revolving heavens" is set in the created "menorah" which was set in the stretched out heavens from the earth on day 4 of creation week.
That is Bible doctrine.
He has set His temple in the sun, says the Psalmist,
Psalm 18: translated from Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, to English states:
"6 He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he, as a bridegroom coming out of his bride chamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way:

7 His going out is from the end of heaven, And his CIRCUIT even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.

if the heavens are a circle, then what does that make the earth below the heavens?

And just because they had day and night, that doesn't say anything about what they believe the shape of the earth was.

There are all these verses throughout all of the old testament with adjectives describing the solid nature of the firmament, and vaults of the heavens and floodgates and windows, and seeing God walking on the firmament like pavement like brilliant ice, and on and on, molten metal, sapphire etc etc

And the only response I see is people quoting verses saying that the earth is round, even though circles are round too. And I see people quoting verses about compasses not realizing that a compass is something that artists use to draw circles.

And then I see responses saying that something like a dozen translations of the Bible must have just been written by atheists. And that all these verses are just metaphorical and they're just figurative language.

No guys, scripture says what it says. Just because you guys feel uncomfortable with what it says, doesn't mean that you can just mark it all off as a big metaphor. Just because you don't like translations doesn't mean you can just say that they were written by atheists.

No, the ancient Hebrews were not describing an electromagnetic field around planet Earth, I'm sorry. When they talked about windows restraining water, they aren't talking about clouds, they're talking about the firmament. They're talking about vaults and storehouses of the firmament, it's not some metaphor for some concept in advanced 21st century physics. The authors lived over 3,000 years ago, and they viewed the universe differently than modern astrophysicists do today.

Scripture is God inspired, but that doesn't mean that the people inspired gained advanced futuristic astrophysics awareness.

When you read scripture, you have to understand that It was written by people long ago, and God spoke to those people at that time and at that place, and God told them ideas in ways that they could understand where they were at in their point in history. God was not bestowing ubergalactic futuristic science knowledge on them. That's not what it means to inspire people.

You have to put yourself in their shoes, when we look at the sky, it looks like a dome. It really does, anyone who goes outside and looks at the sky can see that it looks like a dome. Anyone without a telescope would also see that the stars appear to be equidistant in this potential dome. And then during the daytime, the sky is blue, what else is blue? Water. Well why would water stay up in the sky? If you don't know what gravity is, well presumably because the dome is keeping it up. Like brilliant ice, like frozen water, like sapphire (a blue mineral).

It's all just too obvious that this is a pre scientific ancient near east cosmology. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just how God inspired people viewed creation at that time in history. And that's ok.

Alright, we clearly aren't going to agree, so I'll just move on and let you both have the last word. I'll say a prayer and wish you both the best in your spiritual journey.

God Bless.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Globe.
Heavens circle the globe in one evening/Night morning/Day from Genesis 1,
sunset to sunset from Earth's "belly button" -AKA "navel" (as God names Israel's land) equals one DAY, from the beginning.
The stars/constellations, AKA God's "angels" - whom He calls by their names, have their own peculiar paths/courses/ ordinances to follow in the circle called the heavens.

 

[Ragdoll]

Circles are round and compasses make round circles.

These verses aren't talking about a sphere at all. They're talking about a round disk, hence why scripture says that God sits upon the disk of the earth.
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:22 NASB2020
Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to live in. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

I saw a post on this very topic that answered all this very well. So since that member already answered this with real scholarship, I'll just quote from his post.

Post #128, Fezzilla writes:

"Why would God tell a lie? The earth is a sphere which is clearly taught in Scripture. Why would Proverbs 8:27 say the earth is flat while Proverbs 8:31 says its a globe?

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

The word is Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl which means "the habitable globe."

✅Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

Fezzilla also wrote:

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

So why would chuwg mean flat earth in Proverbs 8:27 but globe in Isaiah 40:22?

The word chuwg means "Circle, Compass, Circuit." The Greek word used in the Greek Septuagint is gyros and that means "Round, Circumference, Rotation, Horizon."

What chuwg describes is the Great Circle of a sphere. You can see it in the definition.

As mentioned before, Proverbs chapter 8 uses tebel twice and chuwg once.

Proverbs 8:26 - têbêl
Proverbs 8:27 - chûwg
Proverbs 8:31 - têbêl

Three globe earth verses in one chapter. But you interpret this chapter as:

Proverbs 8:26 - globe
Proverbs 8:27 - flat
Proverbs 8:31 - globe

Solomon would not have been that dumb to make this kind of logical contradiction! No way. The word chûwg gives you the geometrical description of a sphere, understood as a Great Circle. The word têbêl means the whole earth as a globe along with the inhabitants therein.

Circle = Round
Compass = Circumference
Circuit = Rotation.

So Isaiah 40:22 tells that the earth moves.

Also, flat earths can float in space or can be suspended over nothing just as spherical Earth's can.

But ANE don't teach that. They teach that the earth is held up by a visible. physical object. Also, a flat earth would probably not be able to sustain an orbit or its shape. Gravity would distort it. Planets are spherical for a reason. You don't see any flat planets in space. The earth is not flat or a snow cone shaped dome.

 

[Ragdoll]

Here's a good one. Gyroscope is a compound word that derived from gyros used in Isaiah 40:22, LXX