WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

Im going by what you said,

No your not dear friend. If you were you would not be trying to claim things I do not believe after I have told you directly what I believe in post # 1484 linked

you dont believe in eternal security,

Agreed dear friend. I do not believe in the false teachings of once saved always saved. If that was true Gods' Word would not warn us against departing the faith *see Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 also more scripture is provided that you will not discuss with me from earlier posts showing that OSAS is a false teaching (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked) that you are unwilling to discuss with me.

so you believe in salvation by what man does.

No dear friend. I believe what Gods' Word says already shown to you in post # 1484 linked
which is the opposite of what you a pretending I believe here.

Only man can loose their salvation. What God doeth, no one can take from it or add to it Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Exactly, that is my point. We can choose to depart the faith and lose our salvation as shown in the scriptures already in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 also more scripture is provided that you will not discuss with me from earlier posts showing that OSAS is a false teaching (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked)

Take Care dear friend.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Gods word says the saints are preserved forever.

Indeed, but who are his saints?

Revelation 14:12 [12], Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

God's Saints, believe and follow what Gods' Word says. They do not believe and disobey and have the dead faith of devils that James 2:16-26 talks about.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

no man can lose his salvation based on any act of disobedience.

Then we have Gods' Word that disagree with your words that says...

Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Take Care now.

 

[Doug Brents]

A Person is saved based on what Christ has done for them, not by their lifestyle.

That doesn’t answer my question.

 

[Brightfame52]

No your not dear friend. If you were you would not be trying to claim things I do not believe after I have told you directly what I believe in post # 1484 linked

Agreed dear friend. I do not believe in the false teachings of once saved always saved. If that was true Gods' Word would not warn us against departing the faith *see Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 also more scripture is provided that you will not discuss with me from earlier posts showing that OSAS is a false teaching (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked) that you are unwilling to discuss with me.

No dear friend. I believe and what Gods' Word says in already shown to you in post # 1484 linked
which is the opposite of what you a pretending I believe here.

Exactly, that is my point. We can choose to depart the faith and lose our salvation as shown in the scriptures already in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 also more scripture is provided that you will not discuss with me from earlier posts showing that OSAS is a false teaching (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked)

Take Care dear friend.

Did you not say, you dont believe in eternal security of the saints ? Yes or No

 

[Brightfame52]

Indeed, but who are his saints?

Revelation 14:12 [12], Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

God's Saints, believe and follow what Gods' Word says. They do not believe and disobey and have the dead faith of devils that James 2:16-26 talks about.

The saints are the saints, believers in Christ, New Creatures.

 

[Brightfame52]

Then we have Gods' Word that disagree with your words that says...

Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Take Care now.

If you believe a person who is saved can loose salvation by his sin, then you believe in salvation by mans works, by mans obedience.

 

[Brightfame52]

That doesn’t answer my question.

Then I have nothing else for you. Salvation is by the doing and dying of Christ. Sorry thats not an adequate answer for you.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Doug Brents said, [post #1497],

"Let me ask you a few questions.
You believe that a person is saved, absolutely saved, when they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh who died for our sins and was resurrected. Correct?
You believe that that salvation cannot be lost for any reason. Correct?

Now, what of the person who believes, lives a Godly life for a while, and then goes back to living a life of unrepentant sin?

There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe), or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

My Reply :

Although BrightFame52 and myself agree that not even one genuine believer will ever lose or forfeit their salvation, our perspectives differ on some of the points that are involved in arriving at that conclusion. So with that said, here's how I would answer your questions [breaking them down point by point] :

(1) "You believe that a person is saved, absolutely saved, when they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh who died for our sins and was resurrected. Correct?"

I believe a person is "absolutely" [i.e - forevermore"] saved when they have been justified before God at the moment of their regeneration.

(2) "You believe that that salvation cannot be lost for any reason. Correct?"

I believe that no genuine believer [will ever] actually forfeit their salvation ["for any reason"] ... as I have demonstrated in the Molinist "can/won't model of preseverance". This model is one that some have never considered [due to lack of exposure to it], while others have failed to either embrace or comprehend the philosophy [i.e.- logic] behind it [primarily due to their personal pre-conceived, ingrained beliefs ... which they assume must be true].

Just because it is asserted that an event [could] transpire [i.e. - the forfeiture of salvation], that assertion, in no way, shape or form, necessitates that that event [will] actually ever take place.

The main objection to the above Molinist "can/won't model of a believer's perseverance" truth claim is that it makes the various warning passages scattered throughout scripture something less than "real."...and therefore, they end up becoming meaningless as far as consequences go. I fully address this objection in post #133 - page 7 :

Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

(3) "Now, what of the person who believes, lives a Godly life for a while, and then goes back to living a life of unrepentant sin?"

Then their "belief" or "faith" was not the quality of faith that was necessary in order to avoid such a scenario. In other words, it was not a "saving" faith, a faith that actually resulted in the regeneration of that person's soul. It appears to me that 1 John 3:9 makes this abundantly clear. All those who have been born of God, that is, regenerated and indwelt by the life principle of God [God's seed] cannot, that is, will not revert back to living lives of unrepentant sin.[as demonstrated in post #61 - page 4:]

Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

(4) "There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe), or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

Concerning your statement, ""There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe)"

There is no contradiction [problem] here, only one that is falsely perceived... that is, one that was built upon faulty premises. I have stated compelling evidence that those who fall back into lifestyles of unrepentant sin are exclusively those who have never been regenerated. [and they were not saved due to the fact that they never possesed saving faith].

You said, "or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

Well, I would never imply that repentance isn't a necessary component of saving faith. However, the very fact that a genuine believer will not revert back to living a life characterized by habitual sin [1 John 3:9] surely implies that an acceptable "measure" of repentance will be present in their lives ... all the way until that time when they receive their Heavenly inheritance.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Did you not say, you dont believe in eternal security of the saints ? Yes or No

Agreed dear friend. I do not believe in the false teachings of once saved always saved. If that was true Gods' Word would not warn us against departing the faith and returning to a life of known unrepentant sin *see Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 also more scripture is provided that you will not discuss with me from earlier posts showing that OSAS is a false teaching (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked) that you are unwilling to discuss with me. However, anyone that is believing and obeying Gods' Word to the end do indeed have eternal security. These are those who Jesus talks about in John 10:26-28. They remain in the faith and faithful to the end and receive everlasting life.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The saints are the saints, believers in Christ, New Creatures.

Then we have the bibles definition of who God's Saints are here...

Revelation 14:12 [12], Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

God's Saints, believe and follow what Gods' Word says. They do not believe and disobey what God's Word says and have the dead faith of devils that James 2:16-26 talks about.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If you believe a person who is saved can loose salvation by his sin

Then we have Gods Word that say... Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,[27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

then you believe in salvation by mans works, by mans obedience.

No dear friend. I believe what Gods' Word says already shown to you in post # 1484 linked which is the opposite of what you a pretending I believe here. We should take care not to bare false witness and to believe what the bible teaches and the bible does not teach what you are teaching.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Doug Brents said, [post #1497],

"Let me ask you a few questions.
You believe that a person is saved, absolutely saved, when they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh who died for our sins and was resurrected. Correct?
You believe that that salvation cannot be lost for any reason. Correct?

Now, what of the person who believes, lives a Godly life for a while, and then goes back to living a life of unrepentant sin?

There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe), or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

My Reply :

Although BrightFame52 and myself agree that not even one genuine believer will ever lose or forfeit their salvation, our perspectives differ on some of the points that are involved in arriving at that conclusion. So with that said, here's how I would answer your questions [breaking them down point by point] :

(1) "You believe that a person is saved, absolutely saved, when they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh who died for our sins and was resurrected. Correct?"

I believe a person is "absolutely" [i.e - forevermore"] saved when they have been justified before God at the moment of their regeneration.

(2) "You believe that that salvation cannot be lost for any reason. Correct?"

I believe that no genuine believer [will ever] actually forfeit their salvation ["for any reason"] ... as I have demonstrated in the Molinist "can/won't model of preseverance". This model is one that some have never considered [due to lack of exposure to it], while others have failed to either embrace or comprehend the philosophy [i.e.- logic] behind it [primarily due to their personal pre-conceived, ingrained beliefs ... which they assume must be true].

Just because it is asserted that an event [could] transpire [i.e. - the forfeiture of salvation], that assertion, in no way, shape or form, necessitates that that event [will] actually ever take place.

The main objection to the above Molinist "can/won't model of a believer's perseverance" truth claim is that it makes the various warning passages scattered throughout scripture something less than "real."...and therefore, they end up becoming meaningless as far as consequences go. I fully address this objection in post #133 - page 7 :

Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

(3) "Now, what of the person who believes, lives a Godly life for a while, and then goes back to living a life of unrepentant sin?"

Then their "belief" or "faith" was not the quality of faith that was necessary in order to avoid such a scenario. In other words, it was not a "saving" faith, a faith that actually resulted in the regeneration of that person's soul. It appears to me that 1 John 3:9 makes this abundantly clear. All those who have been born of God, that is, regenerated and indwelt by the life principle of God [God's seed] cannot, that is, will not revert back to living lives of unrepentant sin.[as demonstrated in post #61 - page 4:]

Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

(4) "There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe), or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

Concerning your statement, ""There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe)"

There is no contradiction [problem] here, only one that is falsely perceived... that is, one that was built upon faulty premises. I have stated compelling evidence that those who fall back into lifestyles of unrepentant sin are exclusively those who have never been regenerated. [and they were not saved due to the fact that they never possesed saving faith].

You said, "or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

Well, I would never imply that repentance isn't a necessary component of saving faith. However, the very fact that a genuine believer will not revert back to living a life characterized by habitual sin [1 John 1:9] surely implies that an acceptable "measure" of repentance will be present in their lives ... all the way until that time when they receive their Heavenly inheritance.

There is a lot of false teachings from your post above. Most of it is not biblical. If it was true genuine believers would not be warned against departing the faith and there would not be examples from scripture of genuine believers departing the faith. What your linked post assumes is that mankind does not have free will and what it does not consider is that Gods' salvation is "conditional" on believing and obeying what God's Word says. Most of the claims being made in this post have already been addressed in detail throughout this thread with detailed scriptures responses already but according to the scriptures we can choose to depart the faith and lose our salvation as shown in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39. More scripture has already been provided throughout this thread demonstrating this (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked). Happy to discuss it further in detail if your interested.

Take Care.

 

[Brightfame52]

Agreed dear friend. I do not believe in the false teachings of once saved always saved. If that was true Gods' Word would not warn us against departing the faith and returning to a life of known unrepentant sin *see Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 also more scripture is provided that you will not discuss with me from earlier posts showing that OSAS is a false teaching (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked) that you are unwilling to discuss with me. However, anyone that is believing and obeying Gods' Word to the end do indeed have eternal security. These are those who Jesus talks about in John 10:26-28. They remain in the faith and faithful to the end and receive everlasting life.

Well then, its settled, you believe in Salvation by your works !

 

[Brightfame52]

Then we have the bibles definition of who God's Saints are here...

Revelation 14:12 [12], Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

God's Saints, believe and follow what Gods' Word says. They do not believe and disobey what God's Word says and have the dead faith of devils that James 2:16-26 talks about.

You believe a Saint can become unsaint, so you believe in Salvation by the works of the saint !

 

[Brightfame52]

Then we have Gods Word that say... Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,[27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

No dear friend. I believe what Gods' Word says already shown to you in post # 1484 linked which is the opposite of what you a pretending I believe here. We should take care not to bare false witness and to believe what the bible teaches and the bible does not teach what you are teaching.

Take Care.

Again, if you believe a person can be saved, then lost, by default, you believe in Salvation by works. See nothing and no one can undo what God in Christ has done to save His Elect. They are kept in Faith by the power of God 1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

As quoted before:

Ecc 3:14
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

You believe the opposite, you believe something can undo, take away from the work of God in Salvation !

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well then, its settled, you believe in Salvation by your works !

No dear friend (see post # 1484 linked). As posted earlier, from the scriptures, we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith. According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is not how we are saved it is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit according to the scriptures, it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27 because we do not have genuine faith. We should be careful to believe what God says and not the false teaching of OSAS.

You take Care now

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You believe a Saint can become unsaint

According to the scriptures, the bible defines who a Saint is according to the scriptures as someone who has patience and obeys the commandments of God through faith in Jesus. *Revelation 14:12. Therefore anyone who does not believe and follows what God's Word says is not one of God's Saints.

you believe in Salvation by the works of the saint !

No dear friend. Your bearing false witness again sadly. I have already told you exactly what I believe in post # 1484 linked. You keep ignoring it. (see the previous post above as to what I believe).

Take Care Dear friend.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Again, if you believe a person can be saved,

Yes dear friend everyone who chooses to believe and follow what God's Word says can be saved according to the scriptures *see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21-23; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4

lost, by default, you believe in Salvation by works.

No dear friend, No one is lost by default and no one believes in salvation by works (see post # 1484 linked). We are lost when we reject God's Word in unbelief and return to a life of unrepentant sin after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word according to the scriptures in, Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,[27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

See nothing and no one can undo what God in Christ has done to save His Elect.

Indeed dear friend but the elect are those who are believing and following what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures not those who have departed the faith into unbelief and known unrepentant sin (see Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27).

They are kept in Faith by the power of God 1 Pet 1:5 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. As quoted before: Ecc 3:1 14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Indeed dear friend but once again, according to the scriptures, those who are kept the power of God are those who have faith in Gods' Word. That is they believe and follow what Gods Word says. They are not those who say they believe and do not obey Gods' Word. James calls this the dead faith of devils in James 2:13-26.

You believe the opposite, you believe something can undo, take away from the work of God in Salvation !

No dear friend as shown above and all through the scriptures shared with you the scriptures define God's people (His Saints) as all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Every scripture you have provided here agree with what I have been sharing with you and are in disagreement with you because God's people are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says. They are not those who once believed yesterday and choose to depart the faith today to live a life of known unrepentant sin. Gods' Word says these people are in danger of the judgement (Hebrews 10:26-39). This is what you do not seem to be understanding in our discussion.

You take Care now.

 

[Freth]

You believe a Saint can become unsaint, so you believe in Salvation by the works of the saint !

Romans 6 explains in detail why obedience is necessary.

The opening statement makes it clear, we should not live in sin.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

The old way of life, and the new way of life.

Romans 6:3-7 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.​

Romans 6:8-11 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Sin and the Christian.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.​

Sin and grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

Romans 6:19-22 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
​

The wages of sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Conclusion: Obedience unto righteousness is necessary for the Christian.