How is one to understand this passage?

[ArmyMatt]

Joy meaning that we can trust what God is willing or allowing is for our salvation no matter what it is?

yep.

 

[SingularityOne]

yep.

Thank you father!

 

[Mark Quayle]

deleted

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you father!

no problem!

 

[ArmyMatt]

How is predestination an extreme? Do you mean predestination to the exclusion of free will, or to the exclusion of choice? Do you subscribe to the rule of chance?

it’s more the Calvinist understanding of predestination.

 

[Mark Quayle]

deleted

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm sorry. I don't follow what you're saying. WHAT is more the Calvinist understanding of predestination?

we affirm predestination, just not how Calvin saw it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

deleted

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok.

okeydoke

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My answer will likely be something of a rehash of others here, but after reading the OP image of the book passage, it just reminded me of what my understandings were of Orthodoxy early on in my time as a catechumen with Father.....

You read about the passage where God "hardened the heart" of the Pharaoh against Moses, etc. We see that passage and, without the Fathers or the Church, in our own interpretation it appears to say that God is playing chess with everyone and He has mapped everything out so we have no choice in the "game." It almost sounds like the way Neil Peart mischaracterizes God in the Rush song "Freewill"....

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned or the Gods are malign, blame is better to give than receive....

However, from what I was taught, that isn't the case. God KNOWS us. In other words, God knew the Pharaoh would react to the liberation of the Hebrews in an obstinate, stubborn, scornful manner, so God used what He already knew (as he is omniscient and all-powerful) about the Pharaoh from the future to PERMIT the Hebrews to run into his brick wall of stubbornness. Knowing the Pharaoh would be hardened, God could use that brick wall to demonstrate His Glory and His Might and His Love to Israel right there by circumventing Pharaoh. It wasn't that God preloaded Pharaoh to be stubborn. Stubborn hardness was his choice. God made us of what He knew. This is a "type" of predestination, but it is more God's use of our traits than a forceful design of our traits to trap and ruin or railroad others.

God uses our struggles to teach us things. I think the operate word is "allows." God allows us to go through certain trials, BUT he keeps us from other things, guarded, so there is much we don't know about the Lord's works in our lives. For every time we ask, "Why would God put me through X?" we don't realize the 25 times he KEPT us from "going through Y" which was not only worse, but possibly lethal to our body or soul.

In all of these trials, we have choice, freedom, and hope or despair as choices.

I'm probably redundant after all the great posts, but this is my own understanding after speaking to priests and reading a bit on the topic over the year. It interested me also.

 

[SingularityOne]

My answer will likely be something of a rehash of others here, but after reading the OP image of the book passage, it just reminded me of what my understandings were of Orthodoxy early on in my time as a catechumen with Father.....

You read about the passage where God "hardened the heart" of the Pharaoh against Moses, etc. We see that passage and, without the Fathers or the Church, in our own interpretation it appears to say that God is playing chess with everyone and He has mapped everything out so we have no choice in the "game." It almost sounds like the way Neil Peart mischaracterizes God in the Rush song "Freewill"....

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned or the Gods are malign, blame is better to give than receive....

However, from what I was taught, that isn't the case. God KNOWS us. In other words, God knew the Pharaoh would react to the liberation of the Hebrews in an obstinate, stubborn, scornful manner, so God used what He already knew (as he is omniscient and all-powerful) about the Pharaoh from the future to PERMIT the Hebrews to run into his brick wall of stubbornness. Knowing the Pharaoh would be hardened, God could use that brick wall to demonstrate His Glory and His Might and His Love to Israel right there by circumventing Pharaoh. It wasn't that God preloaded Pharaoh to be stubborn. Stubborn hardness was his choice. God made us of what He knew. This is a "type" of predestination, but it is more God's use of our traits than a forceful design of our traits to trap and ruin or railroad others.

God uses our struggles to teach us things. I think the operate word is "allows." God allows us to go through certain trials, BUT he keeps us from other things, guarded, so there is much we don't know about the Lord's works in our lives. For every time we ask, "Why would God put me through X?" we don't realize the 25 times he KEPT us from "going through Y" which was not only worse, but possibly lethal to our body or soul.

In all of these trials, we have choice, freedom, and hope or despair as choices.

I'm probably redundant after all the great posts, but this is my own understanding after speaking to priests and reading a bit on the topic over the year. It interested me also.

Thanks for this. It seems that…

the “God's use of our traits”

and

“God uses our struggles to teach us things. I think the operate word is "allows." God allows us to go through certain trials, BUT he keeps us from other things, guarded, so there is much we don't know about the Lord's works in our lives. For every time we ask, "Why would God put me through X?" we don't realize the 25 times he KEPT us from "going through Y" which was not only worse, but possibly lethal to our body or soul…”

…and how that apples to each and every person is where my mind tries to peer into, but it’s a mystery and I just need to trust that God hears, sees, knows, and arranges everything outside of all of our free-will’s to work out for our individual as well as everyone, as a whole’s, benefit and we will only see how this happened in the eschaton. We can trust that God is teaching us the best thing for our souls to learn at each and every moment and that he cares for us in that process and only allows what is best for each and every one of us AND also brings the right people into our lives, at the right time, as well to help us towards salvation too. What are your thoughts on that?

also, what do you mean by “God made us of what He knew?”

 

[Mark Quayle]

deleted

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My auto-correct was on overtime yesterday. What I meant in this, and my apologies for the confusion, was that God makes out of us the best possibilities from what He knows we're capable of. He knows we have great potential, but great darkness as well. He amplifies the opportunities for us to shine, and sometimes we shine out of the trials, so even when things just plain stink and our day seems miserable or hopeless, banal, or mundane, dark, etc. He provides a way to make from us what He knows is beautiful. But we have to choose to cooperate.

also, what do you mean by “God made us of what He knew?”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This sounds like Reformed theology, which is not Orthodox nor does it belong here, with all due respect, Mark.

God does not treat us as automatons. It isn't a worker bee colony with all of us preloaded as drones to live out the Queen's pre-fabricated pheromones. We have free will. The Blessed Theotokos said YES to God. She could've said NO. She said YES. Did God already know she would? Absolutely. This is why the Lord saw fit to choose the Blessed Virgin, more honorable than the cherubim, more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim. God nurtured saints Joachim and Anna and watched over their holiness providing a path for the Virgin's family generations before she was born, protecting their sanctity and nudging along opportunity to grow in faith and love and prayer. No one in human history was FIT to bear the Son of Man until the Theotokos came into this world. That's why it took the people of Israel sooooo long to get a Savior.

God makes use of what he knows of us. And through this knowledge of His, the choices He knows we will make, for good or for bad, He guides us toward His Divine Plan in His Divine Economy. If I know there is a traffic jam ahead, I can go take an alternate route. God knows every one of life's traffic jams, where all the road work is, and when the boulders will fall and block the mountain passes, so He navigates us around them through our free will.

It's not the same as forcefully compelling us mindlessly and preloading us to fall or thrive.

But the whole concept is framed wrong! God made this world; he is first cause, and the upholder of existence —indeed of fact itself. Therefore, everything that happens is for the purpose of completing his plan. It isn't as if what happens is something God can wisely steer us around. He does to us whatever he always planned to do to us, for us and in us. You can rightly say he kept us from 'Y', but that kind of assumes that 'Y' almost happened to us. It did not almost happen to us, no matter how close a thing it appears to us to be. There is no such thing as chance.

 

[SingularityOne]

My auto-correct was on overtime yesterday. What I meant in this, and my apologies for the confusion, was that God makes out of us the best possibilities from what He knows we're capable of. He knows we have great potential, but great darkness as well. He amplifies the opportunities for us to shine, and sometimes we shine out of the trials, so even when things just plain stink and our day seems miserable or hopeless, banal, or mundane, dark, etc. He provides a way to make from us what He knows is beautiful. But we have to choose to cooperate.

That’s very balanced! Thanks for the help. I make autocorrect fails all the time, so I relate, haha! I do wonder how God works in the subconscious mind of all of us mysteriously because the conscious mind seems to me to be where we choose from. I only say this because I’m a counselor and this interests me, haha.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This sounds like Reformed theology, which is not Orthodox nor does it belong here, with all due respect, Mark.

God does not treat us as automatons. It isn't a worker bee colony with all of us preloaded as drones to live out the Queen's pre-fabricated pheromones. We have free will. The Blessed Theotokos said YES to God. She could've said NO. She said YES. Did God already know she would? Absolutely. This is why the Lord saw fit to choose the Blessed Virgin, more honorable than the cherubim, more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim. God nurtured saints Joachim and Anna and watched over their holiness providing a path for the Virgin's family generations before she was born, protecting their sanctity and nudging along opportunity to grow in faith and love and prayer. No one in human history was FIT to bear the Son of Man until the Theotokos came into this world. That's why it took the people of Israel sooooo long to get a Savior.

God makes use of what he knows of us. And through this knowledge of His, the choices He knows we will make, for good or for bad, He guides us toward His Divine Plan in His Divine Economy. If I know there is a traffic jam ahead, I can go take an alternate route. God knows every one of life's traffic jams, where all the road work is, and when the boulders will fall and block the mountain passes, so He navigates us around them through our free will.

It's not the same as forcefully compelling us mindlessly and preloading us to fall or thrive.

My apologies. I failed, once again, to notice this was not a debate forum. I will try to go through and weed out my posts.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My apologies. I failed, once again, to notice this was not a debate forum. I will try to go through and weed out my posts.

remember too, you can post here in fellowship or to ask us questions.

 

[Mark Quayle]

remember too, you can post here in fellowship or to ask us questions.

Thank you.

 

[SingularityOne]

This sounds like Reformed theology, which is not Orthodox nor does it belong here, with all due respect, Mark.

God does not treat us as automatons. It isn't a worker bee colony with all of us preloaded as drones to live out the Queen's pre-fabricated pheromones. We have free will. The Blessed Theotokos said YES to God. She could've said NO. She said YES. Did God already know she would? Absolutely. This is why the Lord saw fit to choose the Blessed Virgin, more honorable than the cherubim, more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim. God nurtured saints Joachim and Anna and watched over their holiness providing a path for the Virgin's family generations before she was born, protecting their sanctity and nudging along opportunity to grow in faith and love and prayer. No one in human history was FIT to bear the Son of Man until the Theotokos came into this world. That's why it took the people of Israel sooooo long to get a Savior.

God makes use of what he knows of us. And through this knowledge of His, the choices He knows we will make, for good or for bad, He guides us toward His Divine Plan in His Divine Economy. If I know there is a traffic jam ahead, I can go take an alternate route. God knows every one of life's traffic jams, where all the road work is, and when the boulders will fall and block the mountain passes, so He navigates us around them through our free will.

It's not the same as forcefully compelling us mindlessly and preloading us to fall or thrive.

I read this a few days ago and it seems to align with what you are saying here regarding “dead ends.”

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you.

no problem. thems be the rules too.