Scripture is the authority, not the traditions of men.

[Bob corrigan]

As all are aware, there is much false teaching in the world today. It is not found only in the "Left-field, whacky" world of false teachers most are aware of, it is also found in what is considered conservative, bible-believing churches. While some deliberately spout out false teaching, there is also false teaching that is not deliberate, meaning that the preacher is not aware that he is teaching false doctrine. These preachers are simply following the denominational slant or following the herd. But a preacher who doesn't learn the truth of Scripture is just as guilty as any known false teacher. A preacher's number one priority, duty, and responsibility are to study Scripture, learn what Scripture means, learn what Scripture teaches, and pass on that information to those he teaches. By this, those who trust him to teach Scripture truth can know what to believe, obey God and how to live their lives in a righteous way.
In order to study and learn Scripture, one must spend many hours a day reading, researching, and looking up as much information as one can. It is a full-time job, which can take up to 10+ hours a day, a true labor of love. A sign that a preacher doesn't study is when they resort to what is known as the "proof text" method of teaching. For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method.
Verses that teach and collaborate a doctrine are scattered throughout Scripture. It is a preacher's job to study and locate any or many verses that firmly establish a doctrine. Putting a lesson together to teach others is like making a patchwork quilt. You get a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit over there and you put them together to make a whole quilt.
One of the most popular and common teachings is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, believers or not. The proof text used to teach this is John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." You've all heard these taught numerous times. (I am going to do a study on misused words in Scripture. One of these is the word "world." There are different places in Scripture where the word "world" specifically means believers only, not all people.) But this is not the only verse that deals with who Jesus died for. You probably are familiar with some of the other verses I am about to show, but they are not pointed out as having a different meaning than John 1:29, or when read, nothing is pointed out. (You are going to have to look up the verses for yourself.) '
Isa 53:12. This verse states that "he bare the sins of many. "Many" does not mean all people.
Mat 1:21 This verse states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. All people are not Jesus's people.
Mat 26:28 "Shed for many for the remission of sins" Many does not include all people.
John 10:14-15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." We all know that all people are not included with those Jesus called "my sheep."
1Cor 15:3 When Paul uses the word "our" he is specifically referring to believers only, not all people.
Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. All people are not a part of the church.
Titus 2:14 When the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it only includes believers, not all people.
Heb 9:28 Christ was offered to bear the sins of many, not all people.
1Pet 2:24-25 "Bear our sins," meaning believers only.
1John 3:5
1John 3:16 "he laid down his life for us."
1John 4:10 "to be the propitiation, (reconciliation) for our sins."

Some will point to 1John 2:2 as teaching otherwise. But let me ask you a question, does Scripture contradict Scripture? Of course not. So what did John teach in this verse? In order to understand Scripture, you have to know the proper context. You have to also know the Jewish culture, the Jewish mindset and concerning this verse, the average Jewish person's attitude toward Gentiles. All Jews were taught from early childhood that all Gentiles were pagan dogs that had no chance of salvation, that only Jews were going to be saved. What the average Jew did not understand, because they hadn't been taught, is that the Old Testament does teach that Gentiles were to be included in God's plan to save all believers. It took the Apostles about 14 years to fully grasp this fact. Reading John 11:51-52 gives understanding to what John wrote in 1 John 2:2. John was writing to Jewish believers. Many of the Jews he wrote to didn't understand or refused to accept that some Gentiles would become true believers. Since the word "world" here means believers, not all people, John wrote that Jesus not only died for the Jewish believers, he also died for the Gentile believers scattered among the world.

I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation. There are those determined to believe what they want to believe or that whatever their preacher says is "gospel truth." I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots. Do you believe in Scripture? Any verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture, it is one book, not a book with two parts. It is one plan of salvation, not a salvation for the Jewish people in the O.T, and different salvation for the Gentiles thousands of years later. There is one faith, not a Jewish faith and a Gentile faith.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Bob corrigan, it's too late for me to reply to your OP tonight (I hope to be able to tomorrow .. Dv), but I did want to take the time to say, WELCOME TO CF (seeing that you are brand new around here).

I'm glad that you found us and joined in the discussions with us

God bless you!

--David

1 Thessalonians 5
23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body
be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
.​

 

[disciple Clint]

As all are aware, there is much false teaching in the world today. It is not found only in the "Left-field, whacky" world of false teachers most are aware of, it is also found in what is considered conservative, bible-believing churches. While some deliberately spout out false teaching, there is also false teaching that is not deliberate, meaning that the preacher is not aware that he is teaching false doctrine. These preachers are simply following the denominational slant or following the herd. But a preacher who doesn't learn the truth of Scripture is just as guilty as any known false teacher. A preacher's number one priority, duty, and responsibility are to study Scripture, learn what Scripture means, learn what Scripture teaches, and pass on that information to those he teaches. By this, those who trust him to teach Scripture truth can know what to believe, obey God and how to live their lives in a righteous way.
In order to study and learn Scripture, one must spend many hours a day reading, researching, and looking up as much information as one can. It is a full-time job, which can take up to 10+ hours a day, a true labor of love. A sign that a preacher doesn't study is when they resort to what is known as the "proof text" method of teaching. For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method.
Verses that teach and collaborate a doctrine are scattered throughout Scripture. It is a preacher's job to study and locate any or many verses that firmly establish a doctrine. Putting a lesson together to teach others is like making a patchwork quilt. You get a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit over there and you put them together to make a whole quilt.
One of the most popular and common teachings is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, believers or not. The proof text used to teach this is John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." You've all heard these taught numerous times. (I am going to do a study on misused words in Scripture. One of these is the word "world." There are different places in Scripture where the word "world" specifically means believers only, not all people.) But this is not the only verse that deals with who Jesus died for. You probably are familiar with some of the other verses I am about to show, but they are not pointed out as having a different meaning than John 1:29, or when read, nothing is pointed out. (You are going to have to look up the verses for yourself.) '
Isa 53:12. This verse states that "he bare the sins of many. "Many" does not mean all people.
Mat 1:21 This verse states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. All people are not Jesus's people.
Mat 26:28 "Shed for many for the remission of sins" Many does not include all people.
John 10:14-15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." We all know that all people are not included with those Jesus called "my sheep."
1Cor 15:3 When Paul uses the word "our" he is specifically referring to believers only, not all people.
Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. All people are not a part of the church.
Titus 2:14 When the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it only includes believers, not all people.
Heb 9:28 Christ was offered to bear the sins of many, not all people.
1Pet 2:24-25 "Bear our sins," meaning believers only.
1John 3:5
1John 3:16 "he laid down his life for us."
1John 4:10 "to be the propitiation, (reconciliation) for our sins."

Some will point to 1John 2:2 as teaching otherwise. But let me ask you a question, does Scripture contradict Scripture? Of course not. So what did John teach in this verse? In order to understand Scripture, you have to know the proper context. You have to also know the Jewish culture, the Jewish mindset and concerning this verse, the average Jewish person's attitude toward Gentiles. All Jews were taught from early childhood that all Gentiles were pagan dogs that had no chance of salvation, that only Jews were going to be saved. What the average Jew did not understand, because they hadn't been taught, is that the Old Testament does teach that Gentiles were to be included in God's plan to save all believers. It took the Apostles about 14 years to fully grasp this fact. Reading John 11:51-52 gives understanding to what John wrote in 1 John 2:2. John was writing to Jewish believers. Many of the Jews he wrote to didn't understand or refused to accept that some Gentiles would become true believers. Since the word "world" here means believers, not all people, John wrote that Jesus not only died for the Jewish believers, he also died for the Gentile believers scattered among the world.

I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation. There are those determined to believe what they want to believe or that whatever their preacher says is "gospel truth." I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots. Do you believe in Scripture? Any verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture, it is one book, not a book with two parts. It is one plan of salvation, not a salvation for the Jewish people in the O.T, and different salvation for the Gentiles thousands of years later. There is one faith, not a Jewish faith and a Gentile faith.

not to be disagreeable but I think you will find many very good pastors who will tell you that their primary responsibility is to their flock, which often times leaves much less time for scripture study than what they might like.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

As all are aware, there is much false teaching in the world today. It is not found only in the "Left-field, whacky" world of false teachers most are aware of, it is also found in what is considered conservative, bible-believing churches. While some deliberately spout out false teaching, there is also false teaching that is not deliberate, meaning that the preacher is not aware that he is teaching false doctrine. These preachers are simply following the denominational slant or following the herd. But a preacher who doesn't learn the truth of Scripture is just as guilty as any known false teacher. A preacher's number one priority, duty, and responsibility are to study Scripture, learn what Scripture means, learn what Scripture teaches, and pass on that information to those he teaches. By this, those who trust him to teach Scripture truth can know what to believe, obey God and how to live their lives in a righteous way.
In order to study and learn Scripture, one must spend many hours a day reading, researching, and looking up as much information as one can. It is a full-time job, which can take up to 10+ hours a day, a true labor of love. A sign that a preacher doesn't study is when they resort to what is known as the "proof text" method of teaching. For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method.
Verses that teach and collaborate a doctrine are scattered throughout Scripture. It is a preacher's job to study and locate any or many verses that firmly establish a doctrine. Putting a lesson together to teach others is like making a patchwork quilt. You get a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit over there and you put them together to make a whole quilt.
One of the most popular and common teachings is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, believers or not. The proof text used to teach this is John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." You've all heard these taught numerous times. (I am going to do a study on misused words in Scripture. One of these is the word "world." There are different places in Scripture where the word "world" specifically means believers only, not all people.) But this is not the only verse that deals with who Jesus died for. You probably are familiar with some of the other verses I am about to show, but they are not pointed out as having a different meaning than John 1:29, or when read, nothing is pointed out. (You are going to have to look up the verses for yourself.) '
Isa 53:12. This verse states that "he bare the sins of many. "Many" does not mean all people.
Mat 1:21 This verse states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. All people are not Jesus's people.
Mat 26:28 "Shed for many for the remission of sins" Many does not include all people.
John 10:14-15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." We all know that all people are not included with those Jesus called "my sheep."
1Cor 15:3 When Paul uses the word "our" he is specifically referring to believers only, not all people.
Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. All people are not a part of the church.
Titus 2:14 When the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it only includes believers, not all people.
Heb 9:28 Christ was offered to bear the sins of many, not all people.
1Pet 2:24-25 "Bear our sins," meaning believers only.
1John 3:5
1John 3:16 "he laid down his life for us."
1John 4:10 "to be the propitiation, (reconciliation) for our sins."

Some will point to 1John 2:2 as teaching otherwise. But let me ask you a question, does Scripture contradict Scripture? Of course not. So what did John teach in this verse? In order to understand Scripture, you have to know the proper context. You have to also know the Jewish culture, the Jewish mindset and concerning this verse, the average Jewish person's attitude toward Gentiles. All Jews were taught from early childhood that all Gentiles were pagan dogs that had no chance of salvation, that only Jews were going to be saved. What the average Jew did not understand, because they hadn't been taught, is that the Old Testament does teach that Gentiles were to be included in God's plan to save all believers. It took the Apostles about 14 years to fully grasp this fact. Reading John 11:51-52 gives understanding to what John wrote in 1 John 2:2. John was writing to Jewish believers. Many of the Jews he wrote to didn't understand or refused to accept that some Gentiles would become true believers. Since the word "world" here means believers, not all people, John wrote that Jesus not only died for the Jewish believers, he also died for the Gentile believers scattered among the world.

I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation. There are those determined to believe what they want to believe or that whatever their preacher says is "gospel truth." I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots. Do you believe in Scripture? Any verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture, it is one book, not a book with two parts. It is one plan of salvation, not a salvation for the Jewish people in the O.T, and different salvation for the Gentiles thousands of years later. There is one faith, not a Jewish faith and a Gentile faith.

From your profile, I can see you are a Calvinist, and your text leans towards that thought. Well, I am not a Calvinist, and here is a discussion I wrote on the topic of Predestination and how God does not fix men's eternal salvation, only overarching plans, and threads through life Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry Which I believe is as scriptural as anything you believe as a Calvinist.

 

[pescador]

As all are aware, there is much false teaching in the world today. It is not found only in the "Left-field, whacky" world of false teachers most are aware of, it is also found in what is considered conservative, bible-believing churches. While some deliberately spout out false teaching, there is also false teaching that is not deliberate, meaning that the preacher is not aware that he is teaching false doctrine. These preachers are simply following the denominational slant or following the herd. But a preacher who doesn't learn the truth of Scripture is just as guilty as any known false teacher. A preacher's number one priority, duty, and responsibility are to study Scripture, learn what Scripture means, learn what Scripture teaches, and pass on that information to those he teaches. By this, those who trust him to teach Scripture truth can know what to believe, obey God and how to live their lives in a righteous way.
In order to study and learn Scripture, one must spend many hours a day reading, researching, and looking up as much information as one can. It is a full-time job, which can take up to 10+ hours a day, a true labor of love. A sign that a preacher doesn't study is when they resort to what is known as the "proof text" method of teaching. For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method.
Verses that teach and collaborate a doctrine are scattered throughout Scripture. It is a preacher's job to study and locate any or many verses that firmly establish a doctrine. Putting a lesson together to teach others is like making a patchwork quilt. You get a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit over there and you put them together to make a whole quilt.
One of the most popular and common teachings is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, believers or not. The proof text used to teach this is John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." You've all heard these taught numerous times. (I am going to do a study on misused words in Scripture. One of these is the word "world." There are different places in Scripture where the word "world" specifically means believers only, not all people.) But this is not the only verse that deals with who Jesus died for. You probably are familiar with some of the other verses I am about to show, but they are not pointed out as having a different meaning than John 1:29, or when read, nothing is pointed out. (You are going to have to look up the verses for yourself.) '
Isa 53:12. This verse states that "he bare the sins of many. "Many" does not mean all people.
Mat 1:21 This verse states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. All people are not Jesus's people.
Mat 26:28 "Shed for many for the remission of sins" Many does not include all people.
John 10:14-15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." We all know that all people are not included with those Jesus called "my sheep."
1Cor 15:3 When Paul uses the word "our" he is specifically referring to believers only, not all people.
Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. All people are not a part of the church.
Titus 2:14 When the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it only includes believers, not all people.
Heb 9:28 Christ was offered to bear the sins of many, not all people.
1Pet 2:24-25 "Bear our sins," meaning believers only.
1John 3:5
1John 3:16 "he laid down his life for us."
1John 4:10 "to be the propitiation, (reconciliation) for our sins."

Some will point to 1John 2:2 as teaching otherwise. But let me ask you a question, does Scripture contradict Scripture? Of course not. So what did John teach in this verse? In order to understand Scripture, you have to know the proper context. You have to also know the Jewish culture, the Jewish mindset and concerning this verse, the average Jewish person's attitude toward Gentiles. All Jews were taught from early childhood that all Gentiles were pagan dogs that had no chance of salvation, that only Jews were going to be saved. What the average Jew did not understand, because they hadn't been taught, is that the Old Testament does teach that Gentiles were to be included in God's plan to save all believers. It took the Apostles about 14 years to fully grasp this fact. Reading John 11:51-52 gives understanding to what John wrote in 1 John 2:2. John was writing to Jewish believers. Many of the Jews he wrote to didn't understand or refused to accept that some Gentiles would become true believers. Since the word "world" here means believers, not all people, John wrote that Jesus not only died for the Jewish believers, he also died for the Gentile believers scattered among the world.

I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation. There are those determined to believe what they want to believe or that whatever their preacher says is "gospel truth." I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots. Do you believe in Scripture? Any verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture, it is one book, not a book with two parts. It is one plan of salvation, not a salvation for the Jewish people in the O.T, and different salvation for the Gentiles thousands of years later. There is one faith, not a Jewish faith and a Gentile faith.

This is your first post? Great; welcome to the forum. You will find lots of interesting discussions. You'll agree with some of them and disagree with others. Kepp on participating!

That said, I disagree with your main premise. You left out perhaps the best-known NT verse: John 3:16.

"For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." (NET translation) Clearly, nobody is excluded. Whoever believes in Jesus' atoning death has eternal life.

You write about people basing doctrine on single verses, then quote one single verse after another. You wrote, "For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method."

You've got to do better than this my friend.

 

[1watchman]

As all are aware, there is much false teaching in the world today. It is not found only in the "Left-field, whacky" world of false teachers most are aware of, it is also found in what is considered conservative, bible-believing churches. While some deliberately spout out false teaching, there is also false teaching that is not deliberate, meaning that the preacher is not aware that he is teaching false doctrine. These preachers are simply following the denominational slant or following the herd. But a preacher who doesn't learn the truth of Scripture is just as guilty as any known false teacher. A preacher's number one priority, duty, and responsibility are to study Scripture, learn what Scripture means, learn what Scripture teaches, and pass on that information to those he teaches. By this, those who trust him to teach Scripture truth can know what to believe, obey God and how to live their lives in a righteous way.
In order to study and learn Scripture, one must spend many hours a day reading, researching, and looking up as much information as one can. It is a full-time job, which can take up to 10+ hours a day, a true labor of love. A sign that a preacher doesn't study is when they resort to what is known as the "proof text" method of teaching. For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method.
Verses that teach and collaborate a doctrine are scattered throughout Scripture. It is a preacher's job to study and locate any or many verses that firmly establish a doctrine. Putting a lesson together to teach others is like making a patchwork quilt. You get a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit over there and you put them together to make a whole quilt.
One of the most popular and common teachings is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, believers or not. The proof text used to teach this is John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." You've all heard these taught numerous times. (I am going to do a study on misused words in Scripture. One of these is the word "world." There are different places in Scripture where the word "world" specifically means believers only, not all people.) But this is not the only verse that deals with who Jesus died for. You probably are familiar with some of the other verses I am about to show, but they are not pointed out as having a different meaning than John 1:29, or when read, nothing is pointed out. (You are going to have to look up the verses for yourself.) '
Isa 53:12. This verse states that "he bare the sins of many. "Many" does not mean all people.
Mat 1:21 This verse states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. All people are not Jesus's people.
Mat 26:28 "Shed for many for the remission of sins" Many does not include all people.
John 10:14-15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." We all know that all people are not included with those Jesus called "my sheep."
1Cor 15:3 When Paul uses the word "our" he is specifically referring to believers only, not all people.
Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. All people are not a part of the church.
Titus 2:14 When the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it only includes believers, not all people.
Heb 9:28 Christ was offered to bear the sins of many, not all people.
1Pet 2:24-25 "Bear our sins," meaning believers only.
1John 3:5
1John 3:16 "he laid down his life for us."
1John 4:10 "to be the propitiation, (reconciliation) for our sins."

Some will point to 1John 2:2 as teaching otherwise. But let me ask you a question, does Scripture contradict Scripture? Of course not. So what did John teach in this verse? In order to understand Scripture, you have to know the proper context. You have to also know the Jewish culture, the Jewish mindset and concerning this verse, the average Jewish person's attitude toward Gentiles. All Jews were taught from early childhood that all Gentiles were pagan dogs that had no chance of salvation, that only Jews were going to be saved. What the average Jew did not understand, because they hadn't been taught, is that the Old Testament does teach that Gentiles were to be included in God's plan to save all believers. It took the Apostles about 14 years to fully grasp this fact. Reading John 11:51-52 gives understanding to what John wrote in 1 John 2:2. John was writing to Jewish believers. Many of the Jews he wrote to didn't understand or refused to accept that some Gentiles would become true believers. Since the word "world" here means believers, not all people, John wrote that Jesus not only died for the Jewish believers, he also died for the Gentile believers scattered among the world.

I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation. There are those determined to believe what they want to believe or that whatever their preacher says is "gospel truth." I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots. Do you believe in Scripture? Any verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture, it is one book, not a book with two parts. It is one plan of salvation, not a salvation for the Jewish people in the O.T, and different salvation for the Gentiles thousands of years later. There is one faith, not a Jewish faith and a Gentile faith.

I agree with most of what you say, brother, though some things might have been clarified to avoid a wrong conclusion. We all need to take "all the counsel of God" and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God says. Some do take verses out of context to prove an idea they have. I always teach seekers to compare Scripture with all verses in the Gospels, for one might draw a conclusion on one or two verses which tells us one thing, while if the context of the verse is understood, they might see the real meaning. God never contradicts Himself, as I am sure you also believe.
True "born again" saints (as John 3:16) need to see the full Gospel in all the four Gospels --I think you would agree. Keep looking up! -1watchman

 

[pescador]

I agree with most of what you say, brother, though some things might have been clarified to avoid a wrong conclusion. We all need to take "all the counsel of God" and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God says. Some do take verses out of context to prove an idea they have. I always teach seekers to compare Scripture with all verses in the Gospels, for one might draw a conclusion on one or two verses which tells us one thing, while if the context of the verse is understood, they might see the real meaning. God never contradicts Himself, as I am sure you also believe.
True "born again" saints (as John 3:16) need to see the full Gospel in all the four Gospels --I think you would agree. Keep looking up! -1watchman

It's unfortunate that the Bible is chopped up into verses. Even though they are useful for giving reference points, dividing the text into separate verses (for example in the KJV) distorts the meaning unless one is careful.

 

[1watchman]

It's unfortunate that the Bible is chopped up into verses. Even though they are useful for giving reference point, dividing the text into separate verses (for example in the KJV) distorts the meaning unless one is careful.

Always knocking the KJV??

 

[pescador]

Always knocking the KJV??

One of its biggest flaws is chopping up the text into verses, which often distorts the meaning of the text. Many people take parts of the Bible out of context because of this. There is a very good reason that modern translations have eliminated this distortion (in addition to using modern language, which also makes for clearer meaning).

A by-product of the KJV is that some users claim that it is the pure word of God (which it isn't) and develop a critical, self-righteous attitude toward those of us who prefer modern translations. They come up with all kinds of reasons to put down other translations and the translators, with absolutely no basis. Myth after myth, criticism after criticism. I regard KJVOs as the modern equivalent of Pharisees, who claimed that their Scriptures were the word of God, but had the same judgmental attitude -- and they missed Christ because of it.

Jesus was a rural carpenter who spoke Aramaic, a dialogue of the people. Scripture should reflect that, not the pomposity of a secular king.

 

[1watchman]

"To each, his own way", as the saying goes! I will continue with my Bible which has proved itself in many ways, and you can choose all the many varieties available if you like.

 

[concretecamper]

Scripture is not "The" Authority and neither is the traditions of men.

Jesus told us to listen to the Church. He never told us to listen to the Bible.

 

[pescador]

Scripture is not "The" Authority and neither is the traditions of men.

Jesus told us to listen to the Church. He never told us to listen to the Bible.

Typical Catholic response. You listen to whatever the RCC thinks up, even if it is in contradiction to what Scripture says. Jesus never said to listen to the Pope, the Catholic denomination, the church of Rome, etc.

The Bible is the basis of all truth, not what some men cook up.

 

[Valletta]

Typical Catholic response. You listen to whatever the RCC thinks up, even if it is in contradiction to what Scripture says. Jesus never said to listen to the Pope, the Catholic denomination, the church of Rome, etc.

The Bible is the basis of all truth, not what some men cook up.

Jesus is the basis of all truth, and is Truth itself. It was the Catholic Church that decided to determine which particular writings were God-breathed and which were not. Although there were great similarities of readings at mass from area to area, there were differences, and the Catholic Church set out to decide what was truly the Word of God. The process spanned centuries, and it was not until the late 300s when the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible. Although the Bible was a wonderful addition to the Church, never did the Catholic Church cede authority over to the Bible. Such an idea of making a book authority didn't gain popularity until a thousand or so years later.

 

[concretecamper]

Typical Catholic response. You listen to whatever the RCC thinks up, even if it is in contradiction to what Scripture says.

no one has ever been able to show me where Jesus said to listen to the bible. Now is your chance to show me.
He did say in Matthew to listen to the Church. I'm the one who follows scripture.

 

[pescador]

no one has ever been able to show me where Jesus said to listen to the bible. Now is your chance to show me.
He did say in Matthew to listen to the Church. I'm the one who follows scripture.

You're a Catholic, a member of a denomination that does not follow Scripture.

Jesus never said specifically to "listen to the Bible". In fact, the word "Bible" doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture!

Jesus did say "I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not obey them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has a judge; the word I have spoken will judge him at the last day." John 12:46-48

 

[concretecamper]

You're a Catholic, a member of a denomination that does not follow Scripture.

Sure we do. We don't follow man made heretical ideas.

Jesus never said specifically to "listen to the Bible". In fact, the word "Bible" doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture!

exactly

Jesus did say "I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not obey them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has a judge; the word I have spoken will judge him at the last day." John 12:46-48

so your man made idea from this verse is to follow the bible alone.

Thank you for making my case.

 

[pescador]

Sure we do. We don't follow man made heretical ideas.
exactly
so your man made idea from this verse is to follow the bible alone.

Thank you for making my case.

You wrote, "We don't follow man made heretical ideas." That's all you follow. Your denomination is filled with dogma and rituals that are not in the Bible. They are invented by a clergy to seduce people into a phony religion that is closer to ancient Judaism than Christianity.

Sola Scriptura!

 

[jamiec]

As all are aware, there is much false teaching in the world today. It is not found only in the "Left-field, whacky" world of false teachers most are aware of, it is also found in what is considered conservative, bible-believing churches. While some deliberately spout out false teaching, there is also false teaching that is not deliberate, meaning that the preacher is not aware that he is teaching false doctrine. These preachers are simply following the denominational slant or following the herd. But a preacher who doesn't learn the truth of Scripture is just as guilty as any known false teacher. A preacher's number one priority, duty, and responsibility are to study Scripture, learn what Scripture means, learn what Scripture teaches, and pass on that information to those he teaches.

His “number one priority” ?

Thorough familiarity with the Bible is very important for a pastor, certainty - but not as important as that. Growth in grace and in union with Christ is, I think, more important than that.

By this, those who trust him to teach Scripture truth can know what to believe, obey God and how to live their lives in a righteous way.

In order to study and learn Scripture, one must spend many hours a day reading, researching, and looking up as much information as one can. It is a full-time job, which can take up to 10+ hours a day, a true labor of love. A sign that a preacher doesn't study is when they resort to what is known as the "proof text" method of teaching. For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method.

Agreed, that proof-texting is a bad idea. However, it was regarded as legitimate by the Jews, and by the authors of the NT, who often make use of it. It is a faulty, but time-honoured, method of arguing from the Bible.

Verses that teach and collaborate a doctrine are scattered throughout Scripture.

That is why pretty much anything can be proven from Scripture - because, with the exception of a few books, the Bible does not provide a systematic theology of anything.

It is a preacher's job to study and locate any or many verses that firmly establish a doctrine. Putting a lesson together to teach others is like making a patchwork quilt. You get a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit over there and you put them together to make a whole quilt.

One of the most popular and common teachings is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, believers or not.

Since there is Biblical support for that teaching, people believe it.

It may be, that the NT writers had different ideas on the subject, just as they differed on other matters. The attempt to treat as though it provided a single, perfectly consistent doctrine on that subject, may be an attempt to get from the NT what it does not provide.

The proof text used to teach this is John 1:29

That is news to me, at least.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." You've all heard these taught numerous times. (I am going to do a study on misused words in Scripture. One of these is the word "world." There are different places in Scripture where the word "world" specifically means believers only, not all people.) But this is not the only verse that deals with who Jesus died for. You probably are familiar with some of the other verses I am about to show, but they are not pointed out as having a different meaning than John 1:29, or when read, nothing is pointed out. (You are going to have to look up the verses for yourself.) '

Isa 53:12. This verse states that "he bare the sins of many. "Many" does not mean all people.

In English, “many” does not mean “all”. But does the Hebrew of Isaiah 53.12 use the Hebrew equivalent for “many” in the same way as English uses “many” ?

Besides, it is far from clear that Isaiah 53.12 was intended to describe the work of Christ. It is used to mean that in the NT, because the NT Church and writers applied OT passages to Christ - even though those passages were not referring to Him, but to something else. They used OT language & imagery, to talk about Him. Since Isaiah 53.12 does not come from a NT book, and since its author had no knowledge of NT soteriology, I don’t think it can be used to decide matters that fall under NT soteriology.

Mat 1:21 This verse states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. All people are not Jesus's people.

Mat 26:28 "Shed for many for the remission of sins" Many does not include all people.

John 10:14-15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." We all know that all people are not included with those Jesus called "my sheep."

I think you are reading Calvinism into those texts, by giving them a different meaning from that which they may have. I am not saying that there is nothing to be said for a Calvinist reading of these passages - merely that nothing them about requires such a reading.

1Cor 15:3 When Paul uses the word "our" he is specifically referring to believers only, not all people.

Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. All people are not a part of the church.

Titus 2:14 When the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it only includes believers, not all people.

Heb 9:28 Christ was offered to bear the sins of many, not all people.

1Pet 2:24-25 "Bear our sins," meaning believers only.

1John 3:5

1John 3:16 "he laid down his life for us."

1John 4:10 "to be the propitiation, (reconciliation) for our sins."

None of those passages need be read in a Calvinist sense.

Some will point to 1John 2:2 as teaching otherwise. But let me ask you a question, does Scripture contradict Scripture? Of course not.

That may be obvious to a large number of Christians. But it is far from obvious to others. If 1 John 2.2 - link here: 1 John 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.- does not teach that “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (ESV) - then why did St John not take more care to say what he really meant ? If God cannot (so to speak) be bothered to avoid saying the very opposite of what He means, then He is neither All-Wise, nor Infinite in Goodness, but is most certainly, & despite St Paul’s words, “a God of confusion”. If mere humans can take the trouble to say exactly what they mean - why can God, the Creator of all things, Who is limited by no human limitation at all, not “do likewise”, only even better ? I do not believe in this Trickster-God, Who says one thing, while meaning the very opposite. Such a god is a liar, and well deserves John Wesley’s criticisms of him. God must be an honest God, or be no God at all.

Besides, what has happened to the “perspicuity of Scripture” ? Scripture is anything but perspicuous, if it means the very opposite of what it says.

Scripture, although “God-breathed”, was also written by human beings, over a period of many centuries. Its textual transmission has not been attended by constant miracles, to preserve its every word from all possibility of error - so why should we suppose that the originals were any more preserved from all error ?

How did Judas Iscariot die ?

Where was Jesus brought up ?

What was the exact sequence of events, in full, regarding Jairus’ daughter ?

How many sons did Jesse of Bethlehem have ?

Was Samuel an Ephraimite, or a Levite ?

Does the Law of Moses forbid, or command, a man to “go in” to his deceased brother’s wife ?

Who was the son of Arpachshad from whom Jesus was descended ?

It is the Biblical text thats contain these disagreements. It is because they are in the texts, that many Christians reject the notion that Scripture is free of all contradictions.

So what did John teach in this verse? In order to understand Scripture, you have to know the proper context. You have to also know the Jewish culture, the Jewish mindset and concerning this verse, the average Jewish person's attitude toward Gentiles.

All true and well said.

All Jews were taught from early childhood that all Gentiles were pagan dogs that had no chance of salvation, that only Jews were going to be saved. What the average Jew did not understand, because they hadn't been taught, is that the Old Testament does teach that Gentiles were to be included in God's plan to save all believers. It took the Apostles about 14 years to fully grasp this fact. Reading John 11:51-52 gives understanding to what John wrote in 1 John 2:2. John was writing to Jewish believers. Many of the Jews he wrote to didn't understand or refused to accept that some Gentiles would become true believers. Since the word "world" here means believers, not all people,

What is the basis for that last assertion, please ?

John wrote that Jesus not only died for the Jewish believers, he also died for the Gentile believers scattered among the world.

I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation. There are those determined to believe what they want to believe or that whatever their preacher says is "gospel truth." I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots.

Do you believe in Scripture? Any verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture, it is one book, not a book with two parts.

I believe in God, the Creator of all things - not in the Bible. The Bible is worthy of reverence and honour, because it comes with God’s Authority; but it is as nothing compared with Christ. The Bible is “useful”, but “the primacy in all things” belongs to Christ, not to the Bible.

The Bible is a library, made up of several dozen books. Not a single, self-contained work.

And it is an opinion, not a fact, that “[a]ny verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture...”. It is a very respectable and long-held & widely-held opinion - but that does not make that opinion a fact. Nor is it clear from the Bible that it is intended to be a single, perfectly self-consistent, in all respects contradiction-free, composition.

It is one plan of salvation, not a salvation for the Jewish people in the O.T, and different salvation for the Gentiles thousands of years later. There is one faith, not a Jewish faith and a Gentile faith.

 

[concretecamper]

You wrote, "We don't follow man made heretical ideas." That's all you follow. Your denomination is filled with dogma and rituals that are not in the Bible. They are invented by a clergy to seduce people into a phony religion that is closer to ancient Judaism than Christianity.

Sola Scriptura!

I guess if you repeat a lie to yourself enough, you come to believe it.

 

[pescador]

As all are aware, there is much false teaching in the world today. It is not found only in the "Left-field, whacky" world of false teachers most are aware of, it is also found in what is considered conservative, bible-believing churches. While some deliberately spout out false teaching, there is also false teaching that is not deliberate, meaning that the preacher is not aware that he is teaching false doctrine. These preachers are simply following the denominational slant or following the herd. But a preacher who doesn't learn the truth of Scripture is just as guilty as any known false teacher. A preacher's number one priority, duty, and responsibility are to study Scripture, learn what Scripture means, learn what Scripture teaches, and pass on that information to those he teaches. By this, those who trust him to teach Scripture truth can know what to believe, obey God and how to live their lives in a righteous way.

In order to study and learn Scripture, one must spend many hours a day reading, researching, and looking up as much information as one can. It is a full-time job, which can take up to 10+ hours a day, a true labor of love. A sign that a preacher doesn't study is when they resort to what is known as the "proof text" method of teaching. For those of you not familiar with this phrase or method, it is the practice of quoting a single verse or passage by itself and after reading the words, teaching a doctrine based solely on the one verse or passage read. Not only is this wrong, but it also presents false teaching. There is no one doctrine or teaching in Scripture that can be presented or validated by this method.
Verses that teach and collaborate a doctrine are scattered throughout Scripture. It is a preacher's job to study and locate any or many verses that firmly establish a doctrine. Putting a lesson together to teach others is like making a patchwork quilt. You get a little bit here and a little bit there and a little bit over there and you put them together to make a whole quilt.
One of the most popular and common teachings is that Jesus died for the sins of all people, believers or not. The proof text used to teach this is John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." You've all heard these taught numerous times. (I am going to do a study on misused words in Scripture. One of these is the word "world." There are different places in Scripture where the word "world" specifically means believers only, not all people.) But this is not the only verse that deals with who Jesus died for. You probably are familiar with some of the other verses I am about to show, but they are not pointed out as having a different meaning than John 1:29, or when read, nothing is pointed out. (You are going to have to look up the verses for yourself.) '
Isa 53:12. This verse states that "he bare the sins of many. " Many" does not mean all people.
Mat 1:21 This verse states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. All people are not Jesus's people.
Mat 26:28 "Shed for many for the remission of sins" Many does not include all people.
John 10:14-15 Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." We all know that all people are not included with those Jesus called "my sheep."
1Cor 15:3 When Paul uses the word "our" he is specifically referring to believers only, not all people.
Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. All people are not a part of the church.
Titus 2:14 When the word "us" is used in the New Testament, it only includes believers, not all people.
Heb 9:28 Christ was offered to bear the sins of many, not all people.
1Pet 2:24-25 "Bear our sins," meaning believers only.
1John 3:5
1John 3:16 "he laid down his life for us."
1John 4:10 "to be the propitiation, (reconciliation) for our sins."​

Some will point to 1John 2:2 as teaching otherwise. But let me ask you a question, does Scripture contradict Scripture? Of course not. So what did John teach in this verse? In order to understand Scripture, you have to know the proper context. You have to also know the Jewish culture, the Jewish mindset and concerning this verse, the average Jewish person's attitude toward Gentiles. All Jews were taught from early childhood that all Gentiles were pagan dogs that had no chance of salvation, that only Jews were going to be saved. What the average Jew did not understand, because they hadn't been taught, is that the Old Testament does teach that Gentiles were to be included in God's plan to save all believers. It took the Apostles about 14 years to fully grasp this fact. Reading John 11:51-52 gives understanding to what John wrote in 1 John 2:2. John was writing to Jewish believers. Many of the Jews he wrote to didn't understand or refused to accept that some Gentiles would become true believers. Since the word "world" here means believers, not all people, John wrote that Jesus not only died for the Jewish believers, he also died for the Gentile believers scattered among the world.​

I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation. There are those determined to believe what they want to believe or that whatever their preacher says is "gospel truth." I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots. Do you believe in Scripture? Any verse in Scripture has to align with the rest of Scripture, it is one book, not a book with two parts. It is one plan of salvation, not a salvation for the Jewish people in the O.T, and different salvation for the Gentiles thousands of years later. There is one faith, not a Jewish faith and a Gentile faith.​

​

So after a lengthy article about the misuse of proof texting, you then use a few single, unconnected verses to prove a doctrine that you decided in advance would prove your point. And then at the end you write, "I realize that for some, it doesn't matter what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says. Some will disagree with what I write because they will believe that I am giving a personal interpretation."

a) It does matter a great deal what Scripture teaches or what Scripture says.
b) "I don't care if anybody believes me. I will never expect that I can personally convince anyone to believe anything. But, I don't ask or expect anyone to believe me, rather I point out Scripture, the same Scripture found in your bible and I connect the dots." In other words, you're disagreeing with your own post.

Welcome to the forum!

​