Sun, moon, stars

[Hammster]

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:9-10


“And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
“All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,”
Declares the Lord God.
— Ezekiel 32:7-8


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
— Matthew 24:29

Similar language being used. Do the references have similar themes?

 

[RandyPNW]

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:9-10


“And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
“All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,”
Declares the Lord God.
— Ezekiel 32:7-8


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
— Matthew 24:29

Similar language being used. Do the references have similar themes?

I've long been interested in understanding better references, in the Prophets, to the darkening and falling of the stars. I don't feel good yet about seeing it clearly.

Obviously, when the lights go out in our lives, it means we're dead. And when the powers in the heaven are shaken, it means things that appear to be fixed, such as the angels, lose their place of authority, due to the Fall of the angels.

Also, when entire cities, villages, and fields are burned, as when an invading army comes in and destroys, the smoke rises, cutting off the light of the sun. It indicates a judgment from God against people who are being invaded.

The stars are, I think, used as symbols of God's ambassadors, whether angels or saintly leaders. The fall of the saints under judgment may indicate they are being persecuted, rather than judged.

Regardless, I'd love to know more. I do believe that when Christ returns, a new age will begin. Satan will be bound, I believe, notwithstanding the belief of some Amillennialists, who believe Satan is already bound in the present age.

I just suggest that when Christ comes, things will be different. That I think we can all agree on?

 

[Hammster]

I've long been interested in understanding better references, in the Prophets, to the darkening and falling of the stars. I don't feel good yet about seeing it clearly.

Obviously, when the lights go out in our lives, it means we're dead. And when the powers in the heaven are shaken, it means things that appear to be fixed, such as the angels, lose their place of authority, due to the Fall of the angels.

Also, when entire cities, villages, and fields are burned, as when an invading army comes in and destroys, the smoke rises, cutting off the light of the sun. It indicates a judgment from God against people who are being invaded.

The stars are, I think, used as symbols of God's ambassadors, whether angels or saintly leaders. The fall of the saints under judgment may indicate they are being persecuted, rather than judged.

Regardless, I'd love to know more. I do believe that when Christ returns, a new age will begin. Satan will be bound, I believe, notwithstanding the belief of some Amillennialists, who believe Satan is already bound in the present age.

I just suggest that when Christ comes, things will be different. That I think we can all agree on?

Things changed in the generation where Christ said it would. The sun, moon, and stars of Israel were extinguished just as in Babylon and Egypt.

 

[claninja]

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:9-10


“And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
“All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,”
Declares the Lord God.
— Ezekiel 32:7-8


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
— Matthew 24:29

Similar language being used. Do the references have similar themes?

Matthew henry (isaiah 13:10)
“The stars of heaven shall not give their light, the sun shall be darkened. Such expressions are often employed by the prophets, to describe the convulsions of governments.”

Barnes (isaiah 13:10)
“For the stars of heaven - This verse cannot be understood literally, but is a metaphorical representation of the calamities that were coming upon Babylon The meaning of the figure evidently is, that those calamities would be such as would be appropriately denoted by the sudden extinguishment of the stars, the sun, and the moon. As nothing would tend more to anarchy, distress, and ruin, than thus to have all the lights of heaven suddenly and forever quenched, this was an apt and forcible representation of the awful calamities that were coming upon the people. Darkness and night, in the Scriptures, are often the emblem of calamity and distress (see the note at Matthew 24:29). The revolutions and destructions of kingdoms and nations are often represented in the Scriptures under this image.”

Jamie fausset brown (isaiah 13:10)
“10. stars, &c.—figuratively for anarchy, distress, and revolutions of kingdoms (Isa 34:4; Joe 2:10; Eze 32:7, 8; Am 8:9; Re 6:12-14). There may be a literal fulfilment finally, shadowed forth under this imagery (Re 21:1).”

gills (isaiah 13:10)
“For the stars of heaven,.... This and what follows are to be understood, not literally, but figuratively, as expressive of the dismalness and gloominess of the dispensation, of the horror and terror of it, in which there was no light, no comfort, no relief, nor any hope of any; the heavens and all the celestial bodies frowning upon them, declaring the displeasure of him that dwells there:”

 

[claninja]

benson commentary (Isaiah 13:10)
“Or, rather, the prophet foretels the utter subversion of their republic, and the entire overthrow of their religion and polity, under the emblem of the extinction or passing away of the sun, moon, and stars, and all the heavenly bodies. For, as Bishop Lowth observes, the Hebrew writers, “to express happiness, prosperity, the instauration and advancement of states, kingdoms, and potentates, make use of images taken from the most striking parts of nature; from the heavenly bodies, from the sun, moon, and stars, which they describe as shining with increased splendour, and never setting; the moon becomes like the meridian sun, and the sun’s light is augmented seven-fold: see Isaiah 30:26. New heavens and a new earth are created, and a brighter age commences. On the contrary, the overthrow and destruction of kingdoms are represented by opposite images; the stars are obscured, the moon withdraws her light, and the sun shines no more; the earth quakes, and the heavens tremble; and all things seem tending to their original chaos.”

 

[RandyPNW]

Things changed in the generation where Christ said it would. The sun, moon, and stars of Israel were extinguished just as in Babylon and Egypt.

Oh I see-you're an Amil? That's okay--I have good friends who are Amil. I'm not, but I understand where you're coming from.

You think the Tribulation Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse was completed in Jesus' generation, after which the universe was immediately shaken with the Fall of Jerusalem? I don't agree with this myself.

I agree that the Tribulation *started* in Jesus' generation. But I believe that Israel's punishment has continued long after the passage of that particular generation. But I harbor no illusions about converting you to my pov!

 

[Hammster]

Oh I see-you're an Amil? That's okay--I have good friends who are Amil. I'm not, but I understand where you're coming from.

You think the Tribulation Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse was completed in Jesus' generation, after which the universe was immediately shaken with the Fall of Jerusalem? I don't agree with this myself.

I agree that the Tribulation *started* in Jesus' generation. But I believe that Israel's punishment has continued long after the passage of that particular generation. But I harbor no illusions about converting you to my pov!

Actually I’m postmillennial.

 

[RandyPNW]

Actually I’m postmillennial.

Okay, I guess that surprised me?

 

[Andrewn]

Actually I’m postmillennial.

Amillennials are really Postmillennials in that they believe that the Millennium is now. But the term "Postmillennial" came to be applied to a specific belief that things would gradually get better until heaven on earth is established, before Jesus returns.

This is fine except that 1) morals do not seem to be getting better, and that 2) some Christian groups think they can force morality through political means.

 

[Hammster]

Amillennials are really Postmillennials in that they believe that the Millennium is now. But the term "Postmillennial" came to be applied to a specific belief that things would gradually get better until heaven on earth is established, before Jesus returns.

This is fine except that 1) morals do not seem to be getting better, and that 2) some Christian groups think they can force morality through political means.

I go with what scripture says, not with what I can see.

 

[parousia70]

Amillennials are really Postmillennials in that they believe that the Millennium is now. But the term "Postmillennial" came to be applied to a specific belief that things would gradually get better until heaven on earth is established, before Jesus returns.

A belief based on scriptural promises.

This is fine except that 1) morals do not seem to be getting better, and that 2) some Christian groups think they can force morality through political means.

Actually, by every measure the world is getting better and better, more Godly, more obedient, every single day.

And as I always do when someone says the opposite, I ask them to point to a year in our past where conditions overall were BETTER than they are today. Was it 1983? 1970? 1955? 1901? 1834? 1762? 1624? 1190? 70AD?

Show me EVEN ONE YEAR in our past where the world was a better place, and the human condition was in better straits.

If the world IS indeed worse today than ever before, it should be easy to point to ANY year in our past when the world was BETTER... but NOBODY can do it.

The World, by every metric, continues to get better and better.
Compared to the state of the planet 2000 years ago, there is no question that both the moral sense and the covenantal reality of nations have been radically changed for the better by Christ and the Church.

Christ, his teachings, and his people are here solving the world's problems in myriad ways.

Examples could be multiplied in every field. The whole rise of Western Civilization - science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women - is attributable to one major fact: the World has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings and will continue to do so.

There are More Obedient Christians on the planet today than at any time in History and tomorrow there will be more than today. Such is the unbroken History and Future of Christ's Church.
Of the Increase of His Government and of His peace THERE WILL BE NO END (Isaiah 9:7)

The Church will Not Fail in her divine mission to transform the whole world. Nothing can stop us. (Matthew 16:18)

50 Ways The World is Getting Better

Why The World Is Getting Better And Why Hardly Anyone Knows It

BBC News - Viewpoint: Five ways the world is doing better than you think

World scorecard: A new report shows how the world is a better place.

Is the world getting better or worse? - opinion - 14 October 2013 - New Scientist

Joe Schlesinger: You do know, right, the world is getting better - World - CBC News

 

[parousia70]

Things changed in the generation where Christ said it would. The sun, moon, and stars of Israel were extinguished just as in Babylon and Egypt.

Precicely.
Sun Moon and Stars are names the Bible uses for earthly Authorities and Principalities.
Even Joseph's Dad knew this: Genesis 37:9-10
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” 10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

We Know from scripture that the Change of covenants from Mosaic to Christic was brought about by the shaking and removal of Heaven and Earth (Hebrews 12:18-28)

We also Know from scripture that the Formulation of the Covenant Nation of Israel under Moses in the wilderness was the declared by God to be the Planting of Heaven and the foundation of the earth: (Isaiah 51:16)

 

[DavidPT]

A belief based on scriptural promises.



Actually, by every measure the world is getting better and better, more Godly, more obedient, every single day.

And as I always do when someone says the opposite, I ask them to point to a year in our past where conditions overall were BETTER than they are today. Was it 1983? 1970? 1955? 1901? 1834? 1762? 1624? 1190? 70AD?

Show me EVEN ONE YEAR in our past where the world was a better place, and the human condition was in better straits.

If the world IS indeed worse today than ever before, it should be easy to point to ANY year in our past when the world was BETTER... but NOBODY can do it.

The World, by every metric, continues to get better and better.
Compared to the state of the planet 2000 years ago, there is no question that both the moral sense and the covenantal reality of nations have been radically changed for the better by Christ and the Church.

Christ, his teachings, and his people are here solving the world's problems in myriad ways.

Examples could be multiplied in every field. The whole rise of Western Civilization - science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women - is attributable to one major fact: the World has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings and will continue to do so.

There are More Obedient Christians on the planet today than at any time in History and tomorrow there will be more than today. Such is the unbroken History and Future of Christ's Church.
Of the Increase of His Government and of His peace THERE WILL BE NO END (Isaiah 9:7)

The Church will Not Fail in her divine mission to transform the whole world. Nothing can stop us. (Matthew 16:18)

50 Ways The World is Getting Better

Why The World Is Getting Better And Why Hardly Anyone Knows It

BBC News - Viewpoint: Five ways the world is doing better than you think

World scorecard: A new report shows how the world is a better place.

Is the world getting better or worse? - opinion - 14 October 2013 - New Scientist

Joe Schlesinger: You do know, right, the world is getting better - World - CBC News

Some of you are only looking at these things from your perspective. Try looking at from the perspective of homeless people, or people literally starving to death, so on and so on. Do you think they see the world getting better and better? If the worrd is getting better and better why hasn't homelessness been stamped out by now? Why are people still starving to death around the world?

 

[parousia70]

Some of you are only looking at these things from your perspective. Try looking at from the perspective of homeless people, or people literally starving to death, so on and so on. Do you think they see the world getting better and better? If the worrd is getting better and better why hasn't homelessness been stamped out by now? Why are people still starving to death around the world?

When in history were those things "better" than they are today?

Nations Rise and Fall, the world marches on.

Seems you are the one looking only from your perspective of only what you can see in front of you, instead of allowing the full spectrum picture of the unbridled advancement/betterment of the human condition that has unfolded over the last 20 centuries across the globe.

Why isnt everything fixed by now?
Why are you so impatient?

God is Longsuffering.
We should be as well.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Actually, by every measure the world is getting better and better, more Godly, more obedient, every single day.

How do you arrive at this conclusion, specifically the "more Godly" part?
Religion’s Sudden Decline, Revisited | Center for Political Studies.

Violent Crime in the U.S. Is Surging. But We Know What to Do About It

U.S. cannot 'take lightly' threat Russia could use nuclear weapons - CIA chief

2022 World Watch List Report - Open Doors USA

Special Section: Losing our religion: Fall of faith threatens America

 

[Hammster]

Some of you are only looking at these things from your perspective. Try looking at from the perspective of homeless people, or people literally starving to death, so on and so on. Do you think they see the world getting better and better? If the worrd is getting better and better why hasn't homelessness been stamped out by now? Why are people still starving to death around the world?

I prefer to look at it from a biblical perspective. Christ’s kingdom will continue to grow until it fills the earth. It’s not a quick process. In fact, it’s likened to tree growth.

 

[Hammster]

How do you arrive at this conclusion, specifically the "more Godly" part?
Religion’s Sudden Decline, Revisited | Center for Political Studies.

Violent Crime in the U.S. Is Surging. But We Know What to Do About It

U.S. cannot 'take lightly' threat Russia could use nuclear weapons - CIA chief

2022 World Watch List Report - Open Doors USA

Special Section: Losing our religion: Fall of faith threatens America

I prefer scripture to news sources.

 

[parousia70]

How do you arrive at this conclusion, specifically the "more Godly" part?

That’s easy. There are more faithful and true Christians on earth today than they were yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than there are today.

There’s never been a day in In the last 2000 years where this wasn’t true. It’s true today, it will be true tomorrow, and the next day, and the next…

It’s not rocket surgery.

The gospel is not failing it’s mission, as you appear to contend.

 

[Zao is life]

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
— Isaiah 13:9-10


“And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
“All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,”
Declares the Lord God.
— Ezekiel 32:7-8


“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
— Matthew 24:29

Similar language being used. Do the references have similar themes?

None of the above or anything in your OP proves that Jesus appeared in the clouds at any time since His ascension, or that He is not still going to appear in the clouds when Satan through the beast gains control of the whole world, wickedness has reached its fullness, the saints have been overcome by the beast and their power scattered.

The rest of the Bible and the rest of the New Testament interprets the Olivet Discourse, not vice-versa.

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Whereas truth is light,(John 14:6) the sun and the moon are our rulers of might(Genesis 1:16; Psalm 89:35-37 Genesis 37:9-10; Revelation 12:1).

When summer is at is height and the sun is shining bright, it's reflection in the moon comes into sight,
and wise and faithful saintslike the stars, are shining as is right(Genesis 22:17; Daniel 12:3).

Being "in the heavens", they shine in the earth (Colossians 3:1-4; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:6),
and as "the abundance of the sea", blessing upon blessing do they birth(Isaiah 60:5).

"From heaven" for righteousness and truth,"the stars in their courses fight"(Judges 4:6-7; Judges 5:18-20), and the blood of Christ is their might(Revelation 12:11).

But when calamity comes,and the stars fall from the heavens (Daniel 8:9-10; Revelation 6:12-13), false prophets and false teachers abound, rivers and fountains of water are made bitter. Their teaching is not sound (John 7:37-39; Revelation 8:10-12; Revelation 16:4-7)

And when the sun becomes darkened, and the moon too, loses her might, she reflects not the sun's light. When the moon turns the color of blood and the sun is hiding its face (Matthew 24:29), and the social and political order is being removed, then "the earth is being moved out of its place, and the heavens and earth are shaking" (Isaiah 13:9-13; Revelation 6:12-17), and the kingdom of wickedness is being defeated (Revelation 19:11-21)/

The Lord Jesus Christ remains Victorious, on the throne of God He is seated (Revelation 21:1-22:21).

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Again, none of the above or anything in your OP proves that Jesus appeared in the clouds at any time since His ascension, or that He is not still going to appear in the clouds when Satan through the beast gains control of the whole world, wickedness has reached its fullness, the saints have been overcome by the beast and their power scattered.

The rest of the Bible and the rest of the New Testament interprets the Olivet Discourse, not vice-versa.

 

[Zao is life]

That’s easy. There are more faithful and true Christians on earth today than they were yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than there are today.

There’s never been a day in In the last 2000 years where this wasn’t true. It’s true today, it will be true tomorrow, and the next day, and the next…

It’s not rocket surgery.

The gospel is not failing it’s mission, as you appear to contend.

You left out of your eschatology the part where the power of the holy people will be completely shattered before Christ appears on the clouds and sends His angels to gather his elect:

And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:7

And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:5-7

And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongues and nation. Revelation 13:5-7

And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end. And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him. Daniel 7:25-27

And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them. Revelation 11:7.

It's no rocket surgery. The saints will be overcome. There will also be a great apostasy. The man of sin will seat himself up in the church.