Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Leaf473]

I am assuming this is directed to me, so I'll take the liberty of adding some context for you....

Someone asked Jesus which commandments to keep and Jesus answered directly from the Ten and from the greatest commandments. So Jesus didn't "do away" with the Ten that was written by the finger of God and stored in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19 that came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28, not nine.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”



We have talked about the laws for two years. Many posters have gone in great detail with you, but you have rejected everything shared, mainly over 1 commandment that people go to great lengths to forget despite God telling us the opposite. The scripture that has been shared doesn't seem to line up with what you're okay with believing, so it is rejected. There is no secret law to keep. After discussing the same question for a very long time, what difference would it make going any further if you reject everything shared with you. That is why I offered the suggestion to see if you can receive the promise of the bible that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 but the Spirit is given to those who obey. Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to obey His commandments and as shown Jesus quoted directly from the Ten instead of deleting them and repeated verbatim what God said right in the Ten Commandments John 14:15, Exodus 20:6. Please do not turn this around to something completely out of context.

I have shared with you, as many scriptures as possible that I can and I believe the promise that Holy Spirit will teach us all things for those who have not harden their heart to the Truth. It really comes down to, will you allow God's will to replace our will, wherever that may lead, even if that means being obedient to all of God's law, not just the ones we are okay to keep. We are called to worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and many have replaced God's commandments with traditions of men, which Jesus said doing so is worshipping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9.

(I'm going to break this into parts to make it easier to deal with on my cell phone.)

No, it's not directed to you in particular. Several people are presenting essentially the same teaching.

Yes, Jesus quoted from The ten commandments. He also tells the ex-leper to take the offering that Moses commanded. To me it's obvious that Jesus taught some things that changed with his death and resurrection.

I'm not aware of any one I've talked with on this thread who has gone into great detail about what laws remain. At best they've given categories or rubrics which turn out to be unworkable.

I don't reject the scriptures they've shared, just their interpretations of them.

I do not reject their interpretation over one commandment, but over their inability to specify which laws remain.

 

[Leaf473]

I am assuming this is directed to me, so I'll take the liberty of adding some context for you....

Someone asked Jesus which commandments to keep and Jesus answered directly from the Ten and from the greatest commandments. So Jesus didn't "do away" with the Ten that was written by the finger of God and stored in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19 that came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28, not nine.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”



We have talked about the laws for two years. Many posters have gone in great detail with you, but you have rejected everything shared, mainly over 1 commandment that people go to great lengths to forget despite God telling us the opposite. The scripture that has been shared doesn't seem to line up with what you're okay with believing, so it is rejected. There is no secret law to keep. After discussing the same question for a very long time, what difference would it make going any further if you reject everything shared with you. That is why I offered the suggestion to see if you can receive the promise of the bible that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 but the Spirit is given to those who obey. Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to obey His commandments and as shown Jesus quoted directly from the Ten instead of deleting them and repeated verbatim what God said right in the Ten Commandments John 14:15, Exodus 20:6. Please do not turn this around to something completely out of context.

I have shared with you, as many scriptures as possible that I can and I believe the promise that Holy Spirit will teach us all things for those who have not harden their heart to the Truth. It really comes down to, will you allow God's will to replace our will, wherever that may lead, even if that means being obedient to all of God's law, not just the ones we are okay to keep. We are called to worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and many have replaced God's commandments with traditions of men, which Jesus said doing so is worshipping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9.

Part 2

If the remaining laws are not a secret, please post them. If it's not something you want to do on this thread, is there a list on your Church's website or something?

I think it would make a big difference if you were to say what the remaining laws are. You'd be doing something which I haven't found anyone else able to do.

 

[Leaf473]

I am assuming this is directed to me, so I'll take the liberty of adding some context for you....

Someone asked Jesus which commandments to keep and Jesus answered directly from the Ten and from the greatest commandments. So Jesus didn't "do away" with the Ten that was written by the finger of God and stored in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19 that came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28, not nine.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”



We have talked about the laws for two years. Many posters have gone in great detail with you, but you have rejected everything shared, mainly over 1 commandment that people go to great lengths to forget despite God telling us the opposite. The scripture that has been shared doesn't seem to line up with what you're okay with believing, so it is rejected. There is no secret law to keep. After discussing the same question for a very long time, what difference would it make going any further if you reject everything shared with you. That is why I offered the suggestion to see if you can receive the promise of the bible that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 but the Spirit is given to those who obey. Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to obey His commandments and as shown Jesus quoted directly from the Ten instead of deleting them and repeated verbatim what God said right in the Ten Commandments John 14:15, Exodus 20:6. Please do not turn this around to something completely out of context.

I have shared with you, as many scriptures as possible that I can and I believe the promise that Holy Spirit will teach us all things for those who have not harden their heart to the Truth. It really comes down to, will you allow God's will to replace our will, wherever that may lead, even if that means being obedient to all of God's law, not just the ones we are okay to keep. We are called to worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and many have replaced God's commandments with traditions of men, which Jesus said doing so is worshipping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9.

Part 3

If your interpretation about the spirit being given to those who obey the law is correct, a person would still need to obey the entire set of remaining laws in order to receive the spirit.

I'm not interested in taking anything that Jesus said out of context. The big question is, which commandments is he referring to?

I agree that you have shared a lot of scriptures with me. What would be super helpful is if you would share some of the scriptures where the remaining laws are found.

 

[Leaf473]

I am assuming this is directed to me, so I'll take the liberty of adding some context for you....

Someone asked Jesus which commandments to keep and Jesus answered directly from the Ten and from the greatest commandments. So Jesus didn't "do away" with the Ten that was written by the finger of God and stored in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple which is also revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19 that came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28, not nine.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”



We have talked about the laws for two years. Many posters have gone in great detail with you, but you have rejected everything shared, mainly over 1 commandment that people go to great lengths to forget despite God telling us the opposite. The scripture that has been shared doesn't seem to line up with what you're okay with believing, so it is rejected. There is no secret law to keep. After discussing the same question for a very long time, what difference would it make going any further if you reject everything shared with you. That is why I offered the suggestion to see if you can receive the promise of the bible that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 but the Spirit is given to those who obey. Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to obey His commandments and as shown Jesus quoted directly from the Ten instead of deleting them and repeated verbatim what God said right in the Ten Commandments John 14:15, Exodus 20:6. Please do not turn this around to something completely out of context.

I have shared with you, as many scriptures as possible that I can and I believe the promise that Holy Spirit will teach us all things for those who have not harden their heart to the Truth. It really comes down to, will you allow God's will to replace our will, wherever that may lead, even if that means being obedient to all of God's law, not just the ones we are okay to keep. We are called to worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and many have replaced God's commandments with traditions of men, which Jesus said doing so is worshipping in vain. Matthew 15:3-9.

Part 4

I agree that the spirit will guide us.

I pray this for both of us, from the beginning of Colossians, "Filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, that we may walk worthily of the Lord, to please him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God."

 

[expos4ever]

....but over their inability to specify which laws remain.

Paul refers to the law a lot. And I do not believe he ever speaks of distinct categories within the Law.

 

[Leaf473]

Thats why we shouldn't do that, but if we can't get past the basics does the others really matter. When Jesus said this in Matthew 5:19 He certainly included the Ten as He quoted from them verbatim. Matthew 5:17-30

I would say Yes, it really does matter!

I agree that Jesus included the 10 commandments when he talks about the law in that passage.

I think he includes the entire law, not lacking even the smallest letter.

Even if a case can be made that only some of those laws remain, it doesn't look like a good idea to me to set aside some of the remaining ones at any time during our walk with Jesus.

 

[Leaf473]

How many laws are in the Ten Commandments?

I think there are 10 laws in the ten commandments.

Do you wish to give your estimate of how many laws didn't end at the cross?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think there are 10 laws in the ten commandments.

How about there is 1 Law, Torah! ... and many commandments?

 

[Leaf473]

Did Jesus not obey all the commandments and told us to as well? Isn't the example of Jesus who kept all the commandments good enough for us? Scripture tells us to follow Jesus' example. Jesus said to love the Lord with all your heart Matthew 22:37, not sure how that can be done by breaking one of the commandments that God wrote with His own finger and asked us to remember. All Ten Commandments have been repeated for everyday Christian living in the New Covenant, but people believe what they want and it will eventually all gets sorted out. God bless.

The post you are quoting from goes on to say,

But in Matthew 8, Jesus tells the cleansed leper to not only show himself to the priest, but also to take the offering that Moses commanded.

Almost no Christian thinks we should do that today. So it turns out that No, we don't follow every instruction that Jesus gave.

Jesus also went to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles. We don't do that.

Jesus said to do what the scribes and Pharisees say to do. But we don't listen to the Jewish rabbis today.

So no, we don't follow every instruction that Jesus gave to the people of his day.

 

[Leaf473]

The logic here is simply not correct - just because Jesus quoted the Law does not mean He affirms that they remain in force to this day.

Absolutely! And a fairly straightforward matter of logic imo.

 

[Leaf473]

How about there is 1 Law, Torah! ... and many commandments?

The traditional Jewish answer is 613 commandments. Not all the rabbis sign on to that, some say you can't really count them.

I've looked at the traditional list myself, and I think I count more like 700 or 800.

But definitely, Torah is also just one law, a single way of life. You can't break it up. It would be like trying to make a cake with only half the ingredients in the recipe.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

(I'm going to break this into parts to make it easier to deal with on my cell phone.)

No, it's not directed to you in particular. Several people are presenting essentially the same teaching.

Yes, Jesus quoted from The ten commandments. He also tells the ex-leper to take the offering that Moses commanded. To me it's obvious that Jesus taught some things that changed with his death and resurrection.

I'm not aware of any one I've talked with on this thread who has gone into great detail about what laws remain. At best they've given categories or rubrics which turn out to be unworkable.

I don't reject the scriptures they've shared, just their interpretations of them.

I do not reject their interpretation over one commandment, but over their inability to specify which laws remain.

Yes, we have gone over this a few times on what changed when Jesus because our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification. Scripture tells us pretty clearly in my opinion, what has changed and what has not. Probably no reason to go over it again.

You have made statements you think the Ten Commandments should be kept or nine out of Ten and also made the statements that all the law ended. I'm not really sure what you believe, which is why I suggested obeying the Ten because this is something that most certainly has not ended- does God want you to worship other gods, vain His holy name, murder, covet etc. and Paul tells us those who do these things won't inherit the kingdom, similar to James 2:10-12 and Jesus Matthew 19:17, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 5:17-30, and John 1 John 2:3-5, Revelation 22:14-15. We are only accountable for what we know. So if you know the Ten Commandments are meant to be kept and others have told you and shared scripture showing they should be, you will be accountable for keeping them. We have access to bibles- we are accountable for reading the scriptures and following God's Word. If you start with the Ten maybe the Spirit can help you with the rest. Most of the law of Moses will fall under a category of the Ten. You obviously don't like this idea and would rather have others go over the laws again so they can be rejected, again. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me which is why I offered the suggestion of the promise of scripture that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and is given to those who obey, so starting with the Ten which may open your eyes. That doesn't seem like a suggestion you're interested in and that's your free will. It's probably time for me to end this with we will have to agree to disagree and hopefully the scriptures shared will be helpful at some point or to some. God bless and take care.

 

[Christopher0121]

Very true!

As it relates to this discussion, sometimes people point to Jesus quoting some of the ten commandments and say that this must mean that they didn't end at the cross. After all, we want to follow Jesus' instructions, don't we?

But in Matthew 8, Jesus tells the cleansed leper to not only show himself to the priest, but also to take the offering that Moses commanded.

Almost no Christian thinks we should do that today. So it turns out that No, we don't follow every instruction that Jesus gave.

Every instruction wasn't for us. Jesus was talking to a Jewish leper who had been healed... and keep in mind this was BEFORE Jesus ever went to the cross and established the NT. Technically... anything that happened before the cross is OT.

 

[Christopher0121]

Did Jesus not obey all the commandments and told us to as well? Isn't the example of Jesus who kept all the commandments good enough for us? Scripture tells us to follow Jesus' example. Jesus said to love the Lord with all your heart Matthew 22:37, not sure how that can be done by breaking one of the commandments that God wrote with His own finger and asked us to remember. All Ten Commandments have been repeated for everyday Christian living in the New Covenant, but people believe what they want and it will eventually all gets sorted out. God bless.

Can you name a single statement Jesus made to a NT believer? lol

Keep in mind, a NT believer must believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. They must also be born of the Spirit and many would include being water baptized. NO ONE prior to Pentecost fits this description.

 

[Christopher0121]

I'm happy to discuss the law with anyone.

So... Do you think we should still try to keep the entire law, and that's what will humble us?

No. The "Law of Moses" is an all or nothing proposition, it's not a buffet bar. But most lump "the law" all together and pick and choose what they think is relevant. However, we must distinguish between the Law of God and the Law of Moses...

The "Law of God" was written by God in tablets of stone and were put "inside" the ark. The "Law of Moses" was completed over 39+ years later after their wonderings and was written by Moses on scrolls... and placed in the "side" of the ark. The Law of God (Ten Commandments) were universal laws expressing God's desire for all mankind. However, the Law of Moses only applied to Israel. At the cross... the law of Moses ended. Israel was done. Now God's covenant was open to all, including gentiles. But the "Law of God" remains to condemn sin.

Law of God (Decalogue) placed "inside" the ark... Law of Moses (Torah) written on scrolls and placed in the "side" of the ark...

However, Jesus even went deeper by teaching us HOW to obey the Law of God. Jesus said it simply in two commandments...

1.) Love the Lord your God with all your being.
2.) And demonstrate that love for God in loving your neighbor as yourself.

This fulfills all Ten Commandments.

How? Well... if you obey, "Thou shalt not kill.".... it doesn't mean you love your neighbor if you don't kill him. You might hate his guts and just not want to go to jail. However, ... if you LOVE your neighbor... you'll never even consider harming him. Same with stealing, false witness, honoring parents, not worshipping other Gods, etc.... love is the key.

So, what must we who are born again Christians do???

Love God. Love others. The rest is merely commentary.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Can you name a single statement Jesus made to a NT believer? lol

Sure, the NT scripture is full of them.

 

[Christopher0121]

Sure, the NT scripture is full of them.

How can one be a NEW TESTAMENT (New Covenant) believer... if Jesus hadn't even shed his blood for the NT yet???

Most of what was written in the Gospels was written... while still under the Law. Technically, the NT doesn't start until after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. So, EVERYTHING prior to the cross is technically... Old Testament.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How can one be a NEW TESTAMENT (New Covenant) believer... if Jesus hadn't even shed his blood for the NT yet???

Most of what was written in the Gospels was written... while still under the Law. Technically, the NT doesn't start until after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. So, EVERYTHING prior to the cross is technically... Old Testament.

There is only one Covenant gospel, which started in the OT , renewed in the NT and ratified with Jesus at the cross. There is only one gospel, preached to Abraham Galatians 3:8 the same gospel for the New Covenant believers.

 

[Christopher0121]

There is only one Covenant gospel, which started in the OT , renewed in the NT and ratified with Jesus at the cross. There is only one gospel, preached to Abraham Galatians 3:8 the same gospel for the New Covenant believers.

There has always been one plan of redemption (Gospel). However, there have been multiple covenants ranging from the Edenic to the New Covenant which we are under today. Covenants are essentially contracts with which God deals with men and nations by specified terms. These change... the ultimate plan was always the same though. lol

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There has always been one plan of redemption (Gospel). However, there have been multiple covenants ranging from the Edenic to the New Covenant which we are under today. Covenants are essentially contracts with which God deals with men and nations by specified terms. These change... the ultimate plan was always the same though. lol

I understand what a covenant is, but thanks. Doesn’t change anything in my post.