People are inherently good??

[Dietrich Johnson]

In reading the Orthodox Study Bible, I have repeatedly come across comments that suggest that people are inherently good. From the Orthodox perspective, how does this correspond to the sin of Adam and Eve (and their related punishment)?

 

[HTacianas]

In reading the Orthodox Study Bible, I have repeatedly come across comments that suggest that people are inherently good. From the Orthodox perspective, how does this correspond to the sin of Adam and Eve (and their related punishment)?

The Orthodox view of original sin differs from the Western Augustinian view that seemingly reaches its fulfillment in the views of Calvinism. In the Western view, all people are born to condemnation as a result of original sin. The Eastern view is different. All people are born into salvation, yet fall into condemnation when they follow their propensity to sin. It is that propensity to sin that is inherited as a result of original sin, but not the guilt of original sin. It's as much to ask, "is a stillborn child condemned to hell for eternity"? The Western view of original sin has it that the child is condemned. The Eastern view has it that the child has not sinned and is therefore not condemned.

 

[Ligurian]

In reading the Orthodox Study Bible, I have repeatedly come across comments that suggest that people are inherently good. From the Orthodox perspective, how does this correspond to the sin of Adam and Eve (and their related punishment)?

Jeremiah 31:30-36

The Orthodox view of original sin differs from the Western Augustinian view that seemingly reaches its fulfillment in the views of Calvinism. In the Western view, all people are born to condemnation as a result of original sin. The Eastern view is different. All people are born into salvation, yet fall into condemnation when they follow their propensity to sin. It is that propensity to sin that is inherited as a result of original sin, but not the guilt of original sin. It's as much to ask, "is a stillborn child condemned to hell for eternity"? The Western view of original sin has it that the child is condemned. The Eastern view has it that the child has not sinned and is therefore not condemned.

Augustine doesn't represent ALL of the west... and he never did.

"BE it known (and without doubt) unto you, that we all, and every one of us, are obedient and subject to the Church of God, and to the Pope of Rome, and to every godly Christian, to love every one in his degree, in perfect Charity, and to help every one of them, by word and deed to be Children of God: And other obedience than this I do not know to be due to him whom you name to be Pope; nor by the Father of Fathers to be claimed or demanded. And this obedience we are ready to give and pay to him, and to every Christian continually. Besides, we are under the government of the Bishop of Caerleon upon Uske, who is to oversee under God over us, and cause us to keep the way spiritual.
...
Austin {Augustine} having met with this affront, and perceiving that the Britons were stronger in their Faith than he by his Miracles, cast about to try the Saxons courtesie; that what the Ephod could not, the Sword wrapt up therein should. I say not that he procured, but he threatned or prophesied the destruction of the Monks of Bangor; and it came to pass, and the accasion by writers loudly suspected."
--Nathaniel Bacon, An historical and political discourse of the laws & government of England
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A59082.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext

So... Britain may have been the first protestant church... if not for the fact that Augustine {Austin} came after the Gospel was already planted in Britain.

This is why Pelagius the Briton was called a heretic... against the Papacy.

"In these words of Pelagius (ad Demetr. 2 init.) we recognize distinctly his moral temperament. (a) God has commanded man to do that which is good; he must, therefore, have the ability to do it. That is to say, man is free, i.e., it is possible for him to decide for or against that which is good: “But we say that man is (always) able both to sin and not to sin, so that we confess ourselves to have always a free will" (Pel. in his confession)."
--Seeburg, Text-book of the History of Doctrines

Galileo was also called a heretic...

 

[ArmyMatt]

In reading the Orthodox Study Bible, I have repeatedly come across comments that suggest that people are inherently good. From the Orthodox perspective, how does this correspond to the sin of Adam and Eve (and their related punishment)?

yes, because the good God only creates good creatures. the sin of Adam and Eve brought evil, which is a parasitic corruption, misuse, and twisting of the good. evil isn’t a thing as such.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Jeremiah 31:30-36




Augustine doesn't represent ALL of the west... and he never did.

"BE it known (and without doubt) unto you, that we all, and every one of us, are obedient and subject to the Church of God, and to the Pope of Rome, and to every godly Christian, to love every one in his degree, in perfect Charity, and to help every one of them, by word and deed to be Children of God: And other obedience than this I do not know to be due to him whom you name to be Pope; nor by the Father of Fathers to be claimed or demanded. And this obedience we are ready to give and pay to him, and to every Christian continually. Besides, we are under the government of the Bishop of Caerleon upon Uske, who is to oversee under God over us, and cause us to keep the way spiritual.
...
Austin {Augustine} having met with this affront, and perceiving that the Britons were stronger in their Faith than he by his Miracles, cast about to try the Saxons courtesie; that what the Ephod could not, the Sword wrapt up therein should. I say not that he procured, but he threatned or prophesied the destruction of the Monks of Bangor; and it came to pass, and the accasion by writers loudly suspected."
--Nathaniel Bacon, An historical and political discourse of the laws & government of England
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A59082.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext

So... Britain may have been the first protestant church... if not for the fact that Augustine {Austin} came after the Gospel was already planted in Britain.

This is why Pelagius the Briton was called a heretic... against the Papacy.

"In these words of Pelagius (ad Demetr. 2 init.) we recognize distinctly his moral temperament. (a) God has commanded man to do that which is good; he must, therefore, have the ability to do it. That is to say, man is free, i.e., it is possible for him to decide for or against that which is good: “But we say that man is (always) able both to sin and not to sin, so that we confess ourselves to have always a free will" (Pel. in his confession)."
--Seeburg, Text-book of the History of Doctrines

Galileo was also called a heretic...

what does this have to do with the topic?

 

[SkyWriting]

In reading the Orthodox Study Bible, I have repeatedly come across comments that suggest that people are inherently good. From the Orthodox perspective, how does this correspond to the sin of Adam and Eve (and their related punishment)?

Everything is inherently good. Evil is inherently destructive to what is good.
But the good must be there first.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Natural human goodness is obstructed by death. The law in my flesh opposes the law I will.
Remove death, removes the law that rules my body.
Then it is free to serve what I will.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Natural human goodness is obstructed by death. The law in my flesh opposes the law I will.
Remove death, removes the law that rules my body.
Then it is free to serve what I will.

the OP asked the Orthodox perspective. this isn’t the Orthodox perspective.

 

[Vap841]

The Orthodox view of original sin differs from the Western Augustinian view that seemingly reaches its fulfillment in the views of Calvinism. In the Western view, all people are born to condemnation as a result of original sin. The Eastern view is different. All people are born into salvation, yet fall into condemnation when they follow their propensity to sin. It is that propensity to sin that is inherited as a result of original sin, but not the guilt of original sin. It's as much to ask, "is a stillborn child condemned to hell for eternity"? The Western view of original sin has it that the child is condemned. The Eastern view has it that the child has not sinned and is therefore not condemned.

I’ll take a slice of the Orthodox view, with a side dish of free will. Last time you got some determinism on my plate so I didn’t leave a tip!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I’ll take a slice of the Orthodox view, with a side dish of free will. Last time you got some determinism on my plate so I didn’t leave a tip!

we believe in free will. in fact, that’s one of the stamps we are in God’s image.

 

[Dorothea]

Pardon me. This is the subforum The Ancient Way, which is for Orthodox Christians. Why are people who aren't Orthodox responding in here to an Orthodox question?

 

[prodromos]

Jeremiah 31:30-36




Augustine doesn't represent ALL of the west... and he never did.

"BE it known (and without doubt) unto you, that we all, and every one of us, are obedient and subject to the Church of God, and to the Pope of Rome, and to every godly Christian, to love every one in his degree, in perfect Charity, and to help every one of them, by word and deed to be Children of God: And other obedience than this I do not know to be due to him whom you name to be Pope; nor by the Father of Fathers to be claimed or demanded. And this obedience we are ready to give and pay to him, and to every Christian continually. Besides, we are under the government of the Bishop of Caerleon upon Uske, who is to oversee under God over us, and cause us to keep the way spiritual.
...
Austin {Augustine} having met with this affront, and perceiving that the Britons were stronger in their Faith than he by his Miracles, cast about to try the Saxons courtesie; that what the Ephod could not, the Sword wrapt up therein should. I say not that he procured, but he threatned or prophesied the destruction of the Monks of Bangor; and it came to pass, and the accasion by writers loudly suspected."
--Nathaniel Bacon, An historical and political discourse of the laws & government of England
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A59082.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext

So... Britain may have been the first protestant church... if not for the fact that Augustine {Austin} came after the Gospel was already planted in Britain.

This is why Pelagius the Briton was called a heretic... against the Papacy.

"In these words of Pelagius (ad Demetr. 2 init.) we recognize distinctly his moral temperament. (a) God has commanded man to do that which is good; he must, therefore, have the ability to do it. That is to say, man is free, i.e., it is possible for him to decide for or against that which is good: “But we say that man is (always) able both to sin and not to sin, so that we confess ourselves to have always a free will" (Pel. in his confession)."
--Seeburg, Text-book of the History of Doctrines

Galileo was also called a heretic...

I think you have your Augustines confused.

 

[mama2one]

nm

 

[Ligurian]

Austin having met with this affront, and perceiving that the Britons were stronger in their Faith than he by his Miracles, cast about to try the Saxons courtesie; that what the Ephod could not, the Sword wrapt up therein should. I say not that he procured, but he threatned or prophesied the destruction of the Monks of Bangor; and it came to pass, and the accasion by writers loudly suspected."
--Nathaniel Bacon, An historical and political discourse of the laws & government of England
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A59082.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext

So... Britain may have been the first protestant church... if not for the fact that Augustine {Austin} came after the Gospel was already planted in Britain.

I think you have your Augustines confused.

This is the Augustine that Nathaniel Bacon called Austin... quoted here:

"Is that your answer?" said Augustine angrily, (and his blood boiled within him as he spoke,) "Is that your story? Perhaps you will repent this hereafter. If you do not think proper to join us in preaching the gospel to the Saxons, rely upon it, the time will come, and that speedily, when you will receive death at their hands."
A view of the primitive ages. In two parts : Evans, Theophilus

And the Trial of Pelagius is here:
A view of the primitive ages. In two parts : Evans, Theophilus

The text of some of this book is here:
Massacre at Bangor-is-y-coed