Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Interesting. You seem to be saying Jews have to obey the commandments, Gentiles can do what they want per their own conscious. Their will, not God’s. If that was the case, all the promises of the Bible are made to the Jews, the Old and New Covenant promise, sanctification, the sign between God and His people. sure seems like we have a God of partiality, despite scripture stating otherwise, Romans 2:11 and not a God that looks at us all equally, not as a man or as a women, Jew or Gentile , but as one in Christ. Galatians 3:28-29 You can’t just cherry pick the promises. I guess you could try, but I think our Jesus may have some words on Judgment day. The commandments of God are not burdensome 1 John 3:5 and John gives us a pretty serious warning similar to Jesus.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Do you think Jesus just wants to know only Jews or everyone? I have never seen the scripture that says Jew only follow My example.

Jesus is coming soon and we ought to walk just as He walked, who kept all the commandments and told us to as well. John 14:15, John 15:10,

The Torah was given to the nation if Israel, the Jews. It was never meant to be spread to other nations/people. The only thing we are supposed to spread is the Gospel.
Gentiles that are not under the New Covenant only have their conscience. What else do you think they have?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Torah was given to the nation if Israel, the Jews. It was never meant to be spread to other nations/people. The only thing we are supposed to spread is the Gospel.
Gentiles that are not under the New Covenant only have their conscience. What else do you think they have?

God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, Jesus is the Mediator of God’s New Covenant promise found in Hebrews. If we are in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile and Gentiles are grated in.Galatians 3:28-29 Colossians 3:11 Romans 11:11-24.

One God, one Savior, one Gospel, one Truth, one Salvation the door is Jesus, following His will and not our own. God bless.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, Jesus is the Mediator of God’s New Covenant promise found in Hebrews. If we are in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile and Gentiles are grated in.Galatians 3:28-29 Colossians 3:11 Romans 11:11-24.

One God, one Savior, one Gospel, one Truth, one Salvation the door is Jesus, following His will and not our own. God bless.

You just dodged my question, but okay XD

Did you know that the Torah doesn't apply to the New Covenant? Neither Jew nor Gentile has to follow the law under the New Covenant. That we are grafted in has therefore no effect on the application of Old Testament law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You just dodged my question, but okay XD

Did you know that the Torah doesn't apply to the New Covenant? Neither Jew nor Gentile has to follow the law under the New Covenant. That we are grafted in has therefore no effect on the application of Old Testament law.

Sure it does, God says He writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant promise. Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 written in the heart and we keep the commandments because of love John 14:15, 1 John 5:3. John 15:10 and written in our minds so we remember to do them. James 1:22, Romans 2:13, Revelation 22:14. Scripture seems to disagree with you here.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Sure it does, God says He writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant promise. Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 written in the heart and we keep the commandments because of love John 14:15, 1 John 5:3. John 15:10 and written in our minds so we remember to do them. James 1:22, Romans 2:13, Revelation 22:14. Scripture seems to disagree with you here.

Oh, so we should still obey the Torah? How come you don't?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Oh, so we should still obey the Torah? How come you don't?

We should follow the scripture. God wrote all His laws in the New Covenant. The New Covenant goes in detail as to what changed. In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sins instead of the Levitical priesthood so no more animal and food sacrifices. Hebrews 10, Col 2:14-17. Jesus is our Mediator between us and God administrating on our behalf. Circumcision ended and discussed in detail in the New Covenant and we have baptism as a symbol of accepting Christ as our personal Savior and walking in newness without sin. That doesn’t mean if we stumble and fall, we can’t go directly to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. True repentance though means turning from sin, walking in Christ in obedience. Jesus doesn’t make us obey all by ourselves, when we want to obey Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to help John 14:15-18. What we don’t want to do is live in perpetual sin, we can gain victory over sin with the help of Jesus Christ. What is impossible on our own is possible through Christ. The commandments are not meant to be burdensome, 1 John 5:3. God bless

 

[expos4ever]

By ceremonial laws, I am referring to the "Levitical" laws.
By Decalogue, I am referring to the moral law.

Ok fine - it is perfectly reasonable to use these categories to discuss the law, but where does scripture say one category of laws is preserved and another abolished?

 

[atpollard]

Thanks for your contribution, this verse has been brought up more than once in this thread and people tend to focus more on this part of what Paul says:

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,

Instead of this part:

so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Is Paul teaching us we can now literally worship other gods, vain God's holy name, steal, murder or break any of God's commandments? Of course not, that is not what Paul is teaching here. Jesus came to magnify God's laws- which means makes greater, not lesser. Isaiah 42:21

Jesus gave an example of keeping the Spirit by saying murder begins in the heart. This is what the New Covenant is about, changing our heart from the inside to reflect what is on the outside. When one changes thoughts of hate towards our neighbor to thoughts of love, keeping the commandment to thou shalt not murder will automatically be kept. Jesus is not saying to go out and murder now and commit adultery and either is Paul. Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit so we can keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and the Spirit is given when we obey. Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32. Paul is not condoning lawlessness (without law) and either is Jesus or any of the disciples. God bless.

I agree that the standard has been raised for Christians over Jews and not lowered. At the same time, we are free to

1. Honor God
2. Do right

without any legalistic constraints. As an example, there is a prohibition on creating idols and worshiping them (still good advice even in the NT church). However, that restricts an Ultra-orthodox Jew (like Yaakov Agam) from creating artwork that depicts any person or plant or animal. Free from the LAW and ruled by the SPIRIT, we can worship God in a church using a Crucifix or carved Stations of the Cross or stained glass windows to help focus more of our senses on who God is and what God has done. Our conscience and the Holy Spirit can now proclaim us holy in an act that the Law (and especially human interpretations of the Law) might have condemned us.

So we do not have freedom to be bad, we have greater freedom to be good. Beyond that, the Law can never make us HOLY, it can only point out our sin and make us aware of our need for a Savior. Even if you keep all the Laws perfectly, you have only done the bare minimum to avoid punishment for sin.

 

[expos4ever]

Not if you take Scripture at its word in the context of all Scripture, where n Ephesians 2:15, the description of the laws causing the separation of the Jews from the Gentiles was the ceremonial (Levitical) laws of defilement.

I have already explained this: you have to explain why it is specifically the ceremonial law that is abolished because of its "dividing" function when all the law was given to Jews only. You need to actually make a case - the 10 commandments were only given the Jews so they are just as much a dividing line as the ceremonial law was. So why are they not abolished as well?

But you have bigger problems - you are forced to say that even though Paul in Romans 7 says we no longer serve according to the Law (and here in Romans 7 we know he is talking about "moral" law since he cites "thou shalt not steal" as a example of the law we no longer serve), he really means we are no longer condemned by it.

No person who knows what words mean would do that - say we no longer serve according to a law when they really mean we are no longer subject to the law's condemnation.

If you are going to redefine words in this manner, you can make scripture say almost anything.

 

[expos4ever]

Is Paul teaching us we can now literally worship other gods, vain God's holy name, steal, murder or break any of God's commandments?

You keep constructing this strawman.

No one is saying this, directly or indirectly.

Please stop misrepresenting the positions of others.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

We should follow the scripture. God wrote all His laws in the New Covenant. The New Covenant goes in detail as to what changed. In the New Covenant Jesus is our High Priest and we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sins instead of the Levitical priesthood so no more animal and food sacrifices. Hebrews 10, Col 2:14-17. Jesus is our Mediator between us and God administrating on our behalf. Circumcision ended and discussed in detail in the New Covenant and we have baptism as a symbol of accepting Christ as our personal Savior and walking in newness without sin. That doesn’t mean if we stumble and fall, we can’t go directly to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. True repentance though means turning from sin, walking in Christ in obedience. Jesus doesn’t make us obey all by ourselves, when we want to obey Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to help John 14:15-18. What we don’t want to do is live in perpetual sin, we can gain victory over sin with the help of Jesus Christ. What is impossible on our own is possible through Christ. The commandments are not meant to be burdensome, 1 John 5:3. God bless

We both agree that we should do all of God's will. Where we differ is the reason for doing so. According to you we have to obey God's will because the Torah says so. But here you run into trouble because not only would you still have to stone people for their behaviour etc, you also dismiss all the passages that clearly teach that "we have been released from the law" (Romans 7:6) and that "we are no longer under the tutor" (Galatians 4:24).
Instead it's like this:

As long as you are in California you have to obey Californian law. You cannot murder someone in California for example. Now you move to Florida. Are you still under Californian law? No! Are you free to murder someone now? Also not! Because the law in Florida prohibits it as well.
In the same way Christians (and Messianic Jews) are not under the Torah anymore, but we are under the "law of Christ", which requires us to love God with all our heart and our neighbour as ourselves. Christians don't murder - not because the Torah says so but because it is not loving! Christians don't commit adultery - not because the Torah says so but because it is not loving! We use the Torah to determine God's heart behind the commandments he gave to Israel, and apply the principles we learn from it. For example the commandment "don't muzzle an ox" will be applied as "a worker is worth his wage". Because that's what love requires us to do.

Not being under "the law" anymore doesn't mean we got no law. It means we got a different law and Jesus was very clear about this different law in John 13:34. We don't obey the letter (written commands), we obey the Spirit (God's will taught in principles).

 

[expos4ever]

You are setting Scripture against itself in Ephesians 2:15, where we learn that the laws which caused the separation of the Jews from the ceremonially "unclean" Gentiles; i.e., the ceremonial (Levitical) laws, were abolished.

You are evading - the text never specifies that it is the ceremonial laws that are abolished. Even more to the point, given that all elements of the law were given to Jews and Jews only, I see no Biblical support at all for the notion that the author of Ephesians is limiting himself to the ceremonial law.

How do you defend yourself against the objection that you are defining a distinction that scripture never really countenances (moral law vs ceremonial law) and then using that distinction to arbitrarily decide what part of the Law has been abolished?

 

[expos4ever]

There is no scripture that says the dietary laws ended.

Sure there is. From Mark 7:

And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding as well? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the person from outside cannot defile him

I am familiar with the standard objection to this - that Jesus is only talking here about human additions to the law. That argument is very, very dubious as I am willing to demonstrate if asked.

 

[Guojing]

Because the vision is explained and its not about food but about Gentiles. I outlined it previously, but you can believe what you want. Isaiah 66:17 says something quite opposite. . .

I see. For me, I try to understand scripture literally as far as I can, if the literal meaning makes sense, seek no other interpretation.

 

[Guojing]

Where does He tell the Jew this, please?

Matthew 5:19, followed by Matthew 28:20 will be your answer.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree that the standard has been raised for Christians over Jews and not lowered. At the same time, we are free to

1. Honor God
2. Do right

without any legalistic constraints. As an example, there is a prohibition on creating idols and worshiping them (still good advice even in the NT church). However, that restricts an Ultra-orthodox Jew (like Yaakov Agam) from creating artwork that depicts any person or plant or animal. Free from the LAW and ruled by the SPIRIT, we can worship God in a church using a Crucifix or carved Stations of the Cross or stained glass windows to help focus more of our senses on who God is and what God has done. Our conscience and the Holy Spirit can now proclaim us holy in an act that the Law (and especially human interpretations of the Law) might have condemned us.

So we do not have freedom to be bad, we have greater freedom to be good. Beyond that, the Law can never make us HOLY, it can only point out our sin and make us aware of our need for a Savior. Even if you keep all the Laws perfectly, you have only done the bare minimum to avoid punishment for sin.

I think the danger in this type of thinking is this:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


How are we going to know the will of God, unless we follow His instructions? Obeying your conscious is obeying your will, not God’s. God wrote His will for us and it’s called the Holy Bible. God defines sin and that is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4 and pointed directly to the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 and James says you break one commandment you break them all James 2:10-12 so I don’t believe its up to us to define sin, that is God’s job. When we focus on loving Jesus with all our hearts and minds obeying what He asks will not be burdensome. 1 John 5:3

The Spirit will never lead you away from obeying God’s law.

Isaiah 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The Spirit is given when we obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32



God bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I see. For me, I try to understand scripture literally as far as I can, if the literal meaning makes sense, seek no other interpretation.

I would agree, except parables and visions where the real meaning is spelled out, you can’t take literal.

I do think God literally cares about our bodies as they are a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit so keeping our bodies healthy and clean by the direction of our Creator who made us and all things is something I think we should obey.

 

[expos4ever]

I want to address Ephesians 2:15. At least one poster here is arguing that the "law" that was abolished in that text was the ceremonial law because it so clearly marked out the Jew from the Gentile.

At least superficially, I see the appeal of this argument. After all, there is nothing that would more obviously mark out the Jew than the festivals, the temple stuff, the food laws etc.

But note that while Paul does talk about circumcision, he also makes statements like these:

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise,

What made the Gentile a "stranger to the covenants"? It was certainly not just the "ceremonial" law - a category that we impose on Paul and Jesus - it was the whole package, the complete Law of Moses that the Jew saw as a kind of national charter.

In any event, the fact that the ceremonial law was such a visible sign of the distinction between the Jew and the Gentile does not mean that is any more of a factually significant dividing line than the so-called "moral law" - again, another category we impose on the text. Jesus, of course, saw no such distinctions:

and one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him: 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets

 

[Clare73]

Ok fine - it is perfectly reasonable to use these categories to discuss the law, but
where does scripture say one category of laws is preserved and another abolished?

See post #145.

You are evading - the text never specifies that it is the ceremonial laws that are abolished. Even more to the point, given that all elements of the law were given to Jews and Jews only,
I see no Biblical support at all for the notion that the author of Ephesians is limiting himself to the ceremonial law.

Evidently you don't understand the context of the reference to the "wall of hostile separation" between them in Ephesians 2:15, which were the ceremonial laws of defilement making the Gentiles "unclean," thereby requiring separation of the Jews from them, which laws were abolished.

How do you defend yourself against the objection that you are defining a distinction that scripture never really countenances (moral law vs ceremonial law) and then using that distinction to arbitrarily decide what part of the Law has been abolished?

It is everywhere countenanced in the NT if you understand the contexts.

You seem Biblically unfamiliar with the Levitical laws in relation to the moral laws.
You seem Biblically unfamiliar with the meaning of the wall of hostile separation between Jew and Gentile, which was abolished in Ephesians 2:15.
You seem Biblically unfamiliar with the ceremonial laws as types, patterns, shadows of the things that were to come in Christ, which then were fulfilled in Christ, and are now set aside, inoperative, as Jesus said they would be when they were accomplished (Matthew 5:17-18).

Unfamiliarity with these things keeps you from a NT understanding of the relation of the moral laws to the ceremonial laws.

 

[expos4ever]

Matthew 5:19, followed by Matthew 28:20 will be your answer.

Matthew 28:20 makes no mention of the Law of Moses. As for Matt 5:19, I have addressed this in some detail in post 320 in the other thread about this here: It's Sad That So Many Christians Consider Themselves "New Testament" Christians