On This Rock I Will Build My Church

[Valletta]

Do you know who founded the one true church? Jesus. Do you know who is the head of the church? Jesus.

Those facts are indeed part of our Catholic faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Those facts are indeed part of our Catholic faith.

Yep. That makes me a Catholic as well!

 

[Eloy Craft]

God asked a question about the faith of the people concerning Himself. Peter answered after the errors were expressed. Peter's answer made visible the Father's will and the co-operation of the Holy Spirit. Peter is chosen by the Father. Jesus, in recognition of the Father's will gave Peter the keys and changed his name.
Would infallible truth have divine recognition and authority if it were subject to the death of the person that spoke it?
No, God Authorized it knowing that it wasn't subject to death.

 

[apollosdtr]

As it says.. the rock is “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." The rock/foundation is that truth only comes from God and not from man. Funny how some try to make the foundation a man contrary to what Jesus said,.

yep
Hard to believe... but just a few minutes ago, I was ready to say Jesus is the rock... even after studying it a time or twelve.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter is part of a rock, in the Greek. The rock in the next verse is a mass of rock.
Jesus words are THE rock... not "a rock".

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell not, for it was founded upon the rock.

Jesus' words came from the Father... so, Jesus tells us that those who believe on Him... actually believe on the Father.

John 12:44-50 49 For I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment: what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

(excuse the logic-os... this is a new thought for me)

 

[Valletta]

Quite right! And I am a true Catholic because I am part of that Church that Jesus founded. Because the Scripture says that those who have received Christ have the right to call themselves children of God, then I am a true child of God because I have received Jesus Christ as my Saviour. This makes me a integral part of the Catholic Church along with every other Catholic believer.

Didn't you check out the link I provided to Catechism of the Catholic Church? It says:
Each particular Church is "catholic"
832 "The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament. . . . In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the Lord's Supper is celebrated. . . . In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted."312

833 The phrase "particular Church," which is first of all the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession.313 These particular Churches "are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists."314

834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity."315 "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord."316 Indeed, "from the incarnate Word's descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior's promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her."317

835 "Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she put down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world."318 The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches "unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church."319

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Didn't you check out the link I provided to Catechism of the Catholic Church? It says:
Each particular Church is "catholic"
832 "The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament. . . . In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the Lord's Supper is celebrated. . . . In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted."312

Yes, that describes the Union church I belong to.

833

The phrase "particular Church," which is first of all the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession.313 These particular Churches "are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists."314

My church doesn't have bishops, but it is still as much a part of the universal Catholic church as any other.

834

Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity."315 "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord."316 Indeed, "from the incarnate Word's descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior's promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her."317

This says that to be a true Catholic church has to recognise that the "great Church that is here [at Rome]" to be its only basis and foundation. This contradicts what has been said before. I firmly maintain that my church is a true Catholic church even though it has no connection with the Roman Catholic Church, and does not recognise its pre-eminence over all other churches.

835

"Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she put down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world."318 The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches "unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church."319

My church is a local church as described here.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

Yep. That sure is me, as a faithful member of a Methodist/Presbyterian church that is moderated by both the Methodist synod, and the local Presbytery, but does not recognise the Roman Church or the supremacy of the pope in any shape or form.

 

[Valletta]

yep
Hard to believe... but just a few minutes ago, I was ready to say Jesus is the rock... even after studying it a time or twelve.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter is part of a rock, in the Greek. The rock in the next verse is a mass of rock.
Jesus words are THE rock... not "a rock".

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell not, for it was founded upon the rock.

Jesus' words came from the Father... so, Jesus tells us that those who believe on Him... actually believe on the Father.

John 12:44-50 49 For I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment: what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

(excuse the logic-os... this is a new thought for me)

That Jesus renamed Simon as Rock is particularly significant because "rock" is used a number of times in the Bible to describe God. The Aramaic name Jesus gave to Simon means "Rock" in Aramaic, it is preserved within the mostly Koine Greek text.

 

[concretecamper]

Yep. That makes me a Catholic as well!

Anyone who is validly Baptized is Catholic (or if you prefer the term Christian, they are interchangeable). You see, just because the protestants hijacked Baptism doesn't mean it is not valid. Now you may at some point in your life reject the Christian faith, but that doesn't mean you're not Christian.

 

[Guojing]

St Peter was the founder of the Roman CHurch which dominated the western world so.....The Church he founded had way more followers than any other. Doesn't mean he wasn't flawed but it means he set up the church that would influence the western world's Christianity for 2000 years.

He chose to eat with the Jews because they had different dietary laws so the two groups could not eat together. It had nothing to do with Peter denying that Gentiles were Christian. He took Christianity to the Pagans of Rome and the Romans it seems were not required to be circumcised as most Roman Catholics even today are uncircumcised.

You do agree with scripture that, if Galatians 2:7-9 meant what it says, Peter is an apostle of the circumcision?

So if you consider yourself as an uncircumcised, if you want to form a doctrine that Peter was the "founder" of the Roman church and had way more followers, it cannot be based on scripture, would you agree?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Anyone who is validly Baptized is Catholic (or if you prefer the term Christian, they are interchangeable). You see, just because the protestants hijacked Baptism doesn't mean it is not valid. Now you may at some point in your life reject the Christian faith, but that doesn't mean you're not Christian.

Seeing that the Scripture says that baptism is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I as an affirmed Spirit-filled, Presbyterian Protestant, my baptism was as fully valid as any other. I supposed you are saying that the Protestants have hijacked baptism, but from where? Can't be the Scriptures, because if a person is baptised in the name of Jesus, or in the name of the Father, or even in the name of the Holy Spirit, it certainly hasn't been hijacked from the Scripture.

And your comment about departing from the Christian faith - I became a Christian in a Pentecostal church, and after 12 years, became an Anglican for 2 years, a Baptist for 8 years and a Presbyterian for 23 years. Although I changed religious institutions, I never departed from the Christian faith, nor did I leave the Catholic church. So, what do you think I might have done by departing from the Christian faith?

 

[concretecamper]

Seeing that the Scripture says that baptism is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I as an affirmed Spirit-filled, Presbyterian Protestant, my baptism was as fully valid as any other.

if your baptism was in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it was valid. Being a presbyterian has nothing to do with validity.

And your comment about departing from the Christian faith - I became a Christian in a Pentecostal church, and after 12 years, became an Anglican for 2 years, a Baptist for 8 years and a Presbyterian for 23 years. Although I changed religious institutions, I never departed from the Christian faith, nor did I leave the Catholic church. So, what do you think I might have done by departing from the Christian faith?

you became a Christian at the time of baptism, a gift from God that will follow you for the rest of your life.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

if your baptism was in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it was valid. Being a Presbyterian has nothing to do with validity.
you became a Christian at the time of baptism, a gift from God that will follow you for the rest of your life.

This means that I can go to an Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Church of Christ service and fully participate in Eucharist, Communion, or Lord's Supper (depending on how each church calls it) without restriction, receiving the host and the wine, which I have done without any questions asked. Also, because the Roman Catholic Church is part of the universal Catholic church along with the others, I can also attend Mass, go up and receive the Eucharist also without any questions asked and without restriction- or can I?

 

[concretecamper]

This means that I can go to an Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Church of Christ service and fully participate in Eucharist, Communion, or Lord's Supper (depending on how each church calls it) without restriction, receiving the host and the wine, which I have done without any questions asked

since you'll only be receiving normal bread and wine at any of these places, sure, go for it.

Also, because the Roman Catholic Church is part of the universal Catholic church along with the others

no, it is not part of, it is the Universal Church.

I can also attend Mass, go up and receive the Eucharist also without any questions asked and without restriction- or can I?

it would be awesome if you attend Mass. But you cannot receive the Eucharist because it is the flesh and blood of our Savior. St. Paul issued a warning about this in 1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 11:28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
11:30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep.

 

[rturner76]

You do agree with scripture that, if Galatians 2:7-9 meant what it says, Peter is an apostle of the circumcision?

So if you consider yourself as an uncircumcised, if you want to form a doctrine that Peter was the "founder" of the Roman church and had way more followers, it cannot be based on scripture, would you agree?

Peter was an Apostle to the first Christians who were Jews. The issue in Galatians had more to do with dietary laws than circumcision. As Peter was also an Apostle to the Pagans, I don't think he only recognized circumcised Christians.

 

[Strong in Him]

Also, because the Roman Catholic Church is part of the universal Catholic church along with the others, I can also attend Mass, go up and receive the Eucharist also without any questions asked and without restriction- or can I?

Sadly, I think probably not, because I have been denied communion by Catholics - even though I was baptised, a Christian and a child of God, just as much as they were.
It's a brave person who tells one of God's children that they can't take part in a service, instituted by the Son, to honour the Father.

 

[concretecamper]

Sadly, I think probably not, because I have been denied communion by Catholics - even though I was baptised, a Christian and a child of God, just as much as they were.
It's a brave person who tells one of God's children that they can't take part in a service, instituted by the Son, to honour the Father.

the entitlement mentality so present in the world today has no place in the Church.

 

[Strong in Him]

the entitlement mentality so present in the world today has no place in the Church.

I haven't got an entitlement mentality.
Jesus told us to eat and drink in memory of him; I do that.
There is no reason why I should not be able to do that in a Catholic church - except that they say so.

 

[timothyu]

As Peter was also an Apostle to the Pagans, I don't think he only recognized circumcised Christians.

Did they have to show their 'passports' at the door?

 

[rturner76]

Did they have to show their 'passports' at the door?

Not that I know of.

 

[concretecamper]

I haven't got an entitlement mentality.

if you say so