Transfiguration

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

I have been musing on the incident on the mount of transfiguration.

See Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9.

For me the amazing truth from this incident is that Jesus was disclosing His victory over death before the event of the cross and subsequent resurrection.

For Moses and Elijah to be in conversation with Him in resurrected bodies shows that the defeat of death was already established.

However to understand this one has to appreciate that the cross was a timeless event anchored in History and was retroactive stamping the Lordship of Christ across history redeeming the faithful through His blood from every time in history.

'It is finished' John 19:30 was not the end or the beginning - it was both - It was done, once and for all, throughout history.

 

[BobRyan]

True - one gospel in all of time Gal 1:6-9 and that one and only Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 as well as Adam and Eve.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Jesus calls the transfiguration on the Mt of Olives a vision.

KJV Dictionary Definition: VI'SION, n. s as z. L. visio, from video, visus.
4. In Scripture, a revelation from God; an appearance or exhibition of something supernaturally presented to the minds of the prophets, by which they were informed of future events. Such were the visions of Isaiah, of Amos, of Ezekiel, etc.
VISION - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

(MY NOTE: A vision is a revelation from God, something supernaturally presented to the mind, which inform of future events.)

Matt 17:
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
(MY NOTE: 3 FUTURE main characters are with Jesus)

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
(MY NOTE: Jesus say's; Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead)
Matthew 17 KJV - And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, - Bible Gateway

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus calls the transfiguration on the Mt of Olives a vision.

KJV Dictionary Definition: VI'SION, n. s as z. L. visio, from video, visus.
4. In Scripture, a revelation from God; an appearance or exhibition of something supernaturally presented to the minds of the prophets, by which they were informed of future events. Such were the visions of Isaiah, of Amos, of Ezekiel, etc.
VISION - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

(MY NOTE: A vision is a revelation from God, something supernaturally presented to the mind, which inform of future events.)

Matt 17:
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
(NOTE: 3 FUTURE main characters)

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
(NOTE: Jesus face shines bright & he's covered in Shekinah glory)


3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
(NOTE: The great/loved/respected law & prophet representives are present)

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
(NOTE: Peter wants to make 3 shrines, 1 for each)

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
(NOTE Before Peter gets the statement out. A voice makes it clear to all, listen to my Son, He's NO #1)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
(NOTE: Jesus say's; Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead)

Are you making a point...

Did Jesus not actually speak to Moses and Elijah ??

Did the Father not actually speak about His Son ??

Did this not really happen - was it just a vision ??

Please explain why you emphasise this?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The reason I raise this point is that the Greek for vision is 'Horama' and refers to something being visibly seen rather than an impression in the mind.

 

[concretecamper]

Hi there,

I have been musing on the incident on the mount of transfiguration.

See Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9.

For me the amazing truth from this incident is that Jesus was disclosing His victory over death before the event of the cross and subsequent resurrection.

For Moses and Elijah to be in conversation with Him in resurrected bodies shows that the defeat of death was already established.

However to understand this one has to appreciate that the cross was a timeless event anchored in History and was retroactive stamping the Lordship of Christ across history redeeming the faithful through His blood from every time in history.

'It is finished' John 19:30 was not the end or the beginning - it was both - It was done, once and for all, throughout history.

His entire life was a timeless event anchored in history.

That is why we call Mary the Mother of God because although His incarnation happened within time, God is out of time. So was The Second Person of the Trinity ever not Mary's Son?

 

[Carl Emerson]

His entire life was a timeless event anchored in history.

That is why we call Mary the Mother of God because although His incarnation happened within time, God is out of time. So was The Second Person of the Trinity ever not Mary's Son?

Your belief elevates Mary to being part of the trinity - rather than being a highly esteemed humble human. I don't feel comfortable with this.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Are you making a point...

Did Jesus not actually speak to Moses and Elijah ??

Did the Father not actually speak about His Son ??

Did this not really happen - was it just a vision ??

Please explain why you emphasise this?

I shared a link from KJ bible dictionary on what a vision is &

Matt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Matthew 17 KJV - And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, - Bible Gateway

Jesus say's; TELL this VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 

[concretecamper]

Your belief elevates Mary to being part of the trinity - rather than being a highly esteemed humble human. I don't feel comfortable with this.

I didn't claim to believe anything. I just posted a question to ponder.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I shared a link from KJ bible dictionary on what a vision is &

Matt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Matthew 17 KJV - And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, - Bible Gateway

Jesus say's; TELL this VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Frankly it at a wrong translation of the Greek and doesn't match with the account in Mark or Luke.

Verse 2 indicates He was transfigured - it wasn't just in their heads.

The choice of the word 'Vision' in this verse conveys the wrong meaning entirely.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Greek for transfigured 'Metamorphoo' means - to change into another form.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Frankly it at a wrong translation of the Greek and doesn't match with the account in Mark or Luke.

Verse 2 indicates He was transfigured - it wasn't just in their heads.

The choice of the word 'Vision' in this verse conveys the wrong meaning entirely.

People to include you & myself are free to believe & promote whatever they believe.

I added my view on the transfiguration account & I believe its a vision.

I'll add another reason why, I've believe, it's a VISION.

1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - King James Version

Verses 20 & 23 record Jesus to be the FIRST to resurrect. In the transfiguration account, Jesus has yet to die. Moses & Moses & Elijah are a God given glimpse (vision) of a future event. I'll leave this thread with these closing thoughts. Best wishes, JJ

 

[Carl Emerson]

People to include you & myself are free to believe & promote whatever they believe.

I added my view on the transfiguration account & I believe its a vision.

I'll add another reason why, I've believe, it's a VISION.

1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - King James Version

Verses 20 & 23 record Jesus to be the FIRST to resurrect. In the transfiguration account, Jesus has yet to die. Moses & Moses & Elijah are a God given glimpse (vision) of a future event. I'll leave this thread with these closing thoughts. Best wishes, JJ

Thanks for your ideas JJ. - we will see what others think...

 

[Minister Monardo]

Verses 20 & 23 record Jesus to be the FIRST to resurrect. In the transfiguration account, Jesus has yet to die. Moses & Moses & Elijah are a God given glimpse (vision) of a future event. I'll leave this thread with these closing thoughts. Best wishes, JJ

A very interesting read on the nature of the word vision.
I do not think you can label the vision as a glimpse of a future event though,
because of one more verse in Luke that Mt and Mk do not mention.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
Mark 9:4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses,
and they were talking with Jesus.
Luke 9:
30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was
about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

So we see from Luke's information the content of what was discussed in the
conversation that all 3 accounts mention. It is a now event, speaking of what
is about to take place.
As to the resurrection, of course, Elijah never died. What about Moses? I dunno.
Just Moses being Moses I guess. One possible explanation would be from Mt.
Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;
and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had
fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the
holy city and appeared to many.

Strange days! Interesting topic of discussion, which is incomplete and lacking
without Peter's take on the event.
2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice
came to Him from the Excellent Glory: This is My beloved Son, in whom
I am well pleased.
18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him
on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed
as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning
star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God
spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

People to include you & myself are free to believe & promote whatever they believe.

The only problem I have with this statement is that anyone who exercises
this so called freedom to promote what they believe is that there is a true
or false way to support what you are promoting. Allow me to give an example.
I have had people cite a NT passage of a parable, provide 'their interpretation
of the parable' (since yes, a parable must be interpreted) and actually think
they have made a point. This is absurd!
If you cannot support your position with words of a prophet, an apostle,
a psalmist, wisdom or law, your position is vain. "Let every matter be
established upon the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses", because
"no prophetic scripture can be of a private interpretation".
That said, the discussion was wholly informative and edifying and I
appreciate the way the matter was discussed.
In closing, I would add that the voice of God being heard upon a "holy mount"
from the "excellent glory" reminds me of Sinai.
Deuteronomy 4:
32 For ask now concerning the days that are past, which were before you,
since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of
heaven to the other, whether any great thing like this has happened, or like
it has been heard.
33 Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst
of the fire, as you have heard, and live?

 

[Mark Quayle]

His entire life was a timeless event anchored in history.

That is why we call Mary the Mother of God because although His incarnation happened within time, God is out of time. So was The Second Person of the Trinity ever not Mary's Son?

It was not because he was born of Mary, that he is the Son of God. He did not BECOME the Son of God. His body was of this temporal existence, but he was the Son of God, even apart from this existence.

 

[The Liturgist]

.

 

[The Liturgist]

@Carl Emerson

No Christian disputes that our Lord Jesus Christ is begotten of the Father before all ages, that there never was a time when He was not, or regards the Virgin Mary as a member of the Trinity (although Muslims stupidly believe this because Muhammed said so).

The identity of the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God is basic Chalcedonian Christology, indeed it predates Chalcedon, and was formally adopted at the Council of Ephesus in 433 AD in refutation of Nestorius.

The reason for it is because Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man, as the Nicene Creed says. Thus while Mary did not give birth to the Trinity or God the Father, she did give birth to Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh.

This is a doctrinal position agreed upon by all Chalcedonian and Oriental Orthodox churches (In order of size, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, traditional Calvinists, the Oriental Orthodox, Methodists, Moravians, and Old Catholics. Indeed Martin Luther himself personally affirmed this doctrine.

 

[The Liturgist]

On the actual subject of this thread, I have to confess I find it really annoying that many churches celebrate the Transfiguration on the last Sunday after Epiphany, before Septuagesima. I much prefer the Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Catholic approach of celebrating the feast of the Transfiguration on its historic date of August 6th.

Otherwise, the problem is you just have too many major Christological holidays too close together - Christmas, the Circumcision, the Visitation of the Magi, the Baptism of our Lord, and the presentation of our Lord (Candlemass) in a very short period, and no feasts of our Lord between Easter and Christmas other than Christ the King. The August 6th date really helps to keep the liturgical calendar balanced.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Hi there,

I have been musing on the incident on the mount of transfiguration.

See Matt 17, Mark 9, Luke 9.

For me the amazing truth from this incident is that Jesus was disclosing His victory over death before the event of the cross and subsequent resurrection.

For Moses and Elijah to be in conversation with Him in resurrected bodies shows that the defeat of death was already established.

However to understand this one has to appreciate that the cross was a timeless event anchored in History and was retroactive stamping the Lordship of Christ across history redeeming the faithful through His blood from every time in history.

'It is finished' John 19:30 was not the end or the beginning - it was both - It was done, once and for all, throughout history.

Hi Carl, the Transfiguration revealed the Glory he Incarnated with. Moses and Elijah both lived on the mountain. A symbol of life before the fall. Also on the mountain top symbolizes the high state of life we enjoyed before the fall in Paradise. In the the light of Christ's Transfiguration Elijah and Moses are visible. They're in Paradise Jesus too. They discussed something. They are living like it was before sin. Immortal but passable. They are waiting for the end to imitate Our Lord so much more closely being immortal. If you read the account closely they define Christ's glory of an only son full of grace and truth. The Glory of a human soul assumed to God. Jesus soul was assumed to His divinity when He was conceived. He just never let that glory be seen.
The Father said " I glorified you once and I will again." The incarnation and resurrection.

 

[BrotherJJ]

A very interesting read on the nature of the word vision.
I do not think you can label the vision as a glimpse of a future event though,
because of one more verse in Luke that Mt and Mk do not mention.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
Mark 9:4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses,
and they were talking with Jesus.
Luke 9:
30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was
about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

So we see from Luke's information the content of what was discussed in the
conversation that all 3 accounts mention. It is a now event, speaking of what
is about to take place.
As to the resurrection, of course, Elijah never died. What about Moses? I dunno.
Just Moses being Moses I guess. One possible explanation would be from Mt.
Matthew 27:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom;
and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had
fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the
holy city and appeared to many.

Strange days! Interesting topic of discussion, which is incomplete and lacking
without Peter's take on the event.
2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice
came to Him from the Excellent Glory: This is My beloved Son, in whom
I am well pleased.
18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him
on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed
as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning
star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God
spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


The only problem I have with this statement is that anyone who exercises
this so called freedom to promote what they believe is that there is a true
or false way to support what you are promoting. Allow me to give an example.
I have had people cite a NT passage of a parable, provide 'their interpretation
of the parable' (since yes, a parable must be interpreted) and actually think
they have made a point. This is absurd!
If you cannot support your position with words of a prophet, an apostle,
a psalmist, wisdom or law, your position is vain. "Let every matter be
established upon the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses", because
"no prophetic scripture can be of a private interpretation".
That said, the discussion was wholly informative and edifying and I
appreciate the way the matter was discussed.
In closing, I would add that the voice of God being heard upon a "holy mount"
from the "excellent glory" reminds me of Sinai.
Deuteronomy 4:
32 For ask now concerning the days that are past, which were before you,
since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of
heaven to the other, whether any great thing like this has happened, or like
it has been heard.
33 Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst
of the fire, as you have heard, and live?