Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If people in our pagan world have hardened hearts towards the gospel then trying to impress them with purported miracles will not make any difference. The Pharisees saw Christ's miracles occurring right in front of their eyes, yet still they refused to accept Him. Our job is to sow the seed, nothing more. Some of that seed will fall on the path, some on rocky soil, some among thorn bushes. That's not our problem. It is to be expected that not everyone who hears the gospel will be saved.

The so called miracles that people conjure up today to try to win people do more harm than good. They are nothing like the miracles that the apostles performed. What are claimed to be miracles are nothing of the sort.

Usually the only evidence for a healing is hearsay - nothing but an unsubstantiated story - even in an age where everyone carries a video camera on their cell phone. They never actually get to see the miracle taking place such as withered arms regrowing or a lifelong paralytics walking from their wheelchairs or cataracts sudden clearing.

It is a fact that the vast majority of people who are prayed for are not healed, so rather than being led to Christ by experiencing a miracle they are left feeling that God has failed them. Most people in wheelchairs or suffering from visibly incurable conditions never even manage to reach the stage - they are turned away by the ushers. The few that are claimed to be healed are usually only suffering from minor, unverifiable or psychosomatic illnesses such as back pain, depression, or migraines - ailments that can often disappear by the placebo effect. Worst of all are the miracles that are clearly fake, such as the leg-lengthening parlour trick performed by people like Todd White.

The savvy unbeliever will recognise there is no substance to these claims, and instead of turning to Christ in awe and wonder, they will walk away convinced that Christianity is nothing but a sham.

Here's where you and I agree totally. Read my post #140 on Dealing with Cessationists

 

[swordsman1]

Then what about life-long converts to Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc., or even continuationist branches of Christianity? Are they rational too in trusting their religious convictions on the basis that they have not changed their minds since the first day they believed?

It's not a matter of me not changing my mind. That would mean it is something I've intellectually decided for myself. It is the Holy Spirit working in the heart of the believer convincing them that the Bible is God's word. That's why, although Christians on this forum disagree on many things, there is never any argument over whether the Bible is God's word.

• So you consider the 1600 years of pre-Reformation Christianity a success?

• So you trust the testimony of the Catholic Church, with all its miracle accounts?

The Church is the universal Church of believers, the body of Christ. Not any particular denomination.

Isn't "the testimony of the Church" the sum total of the individual testimonies of individual Christians? How can you trust a "collective testimony" if you distrust each individual testimony?

No. If that were the case testimony would be plural. And if that was what the Westminster Confession meant the sentence wouldn't make sense. Why would the testimonies of people cause us to have "a high and reverend esteem of the Holy Scripture"?

There are testimonies where the descriptions definitely match. As an example, Acts 2 involved xenoglossy, and reports of xenoglossy definitely exist. Here is a very recent one. Here is another.

99.99% of charismatic tongues is not claimed to be xenoglossy, it is claimed to be a 'heavenly language' or a 'private prayer language'. And the 0.01% that is claimed to be xenoglossy is unproven. An unsubstantiated hearsay story is not proof.

 

[swordsman1]

Here's where you and I agree totally. Read my post #140 on Dealing with Cessationists

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So miracles to happen today! You and I agreeing like this is one of them!!!

 

[spiritfilledjm]

In 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 we find the following gifts:

• utterance of wisdom
• utterance of knowledge
• faith
• gifts of healing
• working of miracles
• prophecy
• the ability to distinguish between spirits
• various kinds of tongues
• interpretation of tongues

Then, in verses 27-31 of the same chapter we find another list of gifts:

• apostles
• prophets
• teachers
• miracles
• gifts of healing
• helping
• administrating
• various kinds of tongues
• interpretation of tongues

Romans 12:3-8 also contains a list of spiritual gifts:

• prophecy
• service
• teaching
• exhortation
• contribution / generosity
• leadership
• acts of mercy

Ephesians 4:11-12 lists the following:

• apostles
• prophets
• evangelists
• shepherds
• teachers

Question: Which of the gifts listed above are still available to the body of Christ and which ones have ceased?

None have ceased

 

[TruthSeek3r]

And here are some YouTube testimonies of UFO abductions. If you believe a miracle occurs on the basis of a YouTube testimony then you must also believe these accounts of aliens performing experiments on people inside their spaceships.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r1ZTfOm-_Y
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqVdg2zESE4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zTUspQlS8E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPsq1OA6NwM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WAj1yDByp4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=93elxGqDZKg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKoEIIH-_is
www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8vzgbiBFbY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Da_50LNbk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5Lf3nvTmU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6peE7pzKjA

Regarding Alien Abductions, you might find the following resources of interest:

1) Jesus Saves Man From UFOs, Alien Abductions w/Author Jason Dezember -- Spirit Answers Podcast EP 39

2) UFO Disclosure/Evolution Connection the Government Won't Tell You -- Spirit Answers Podcast EP 22

(Many more powerful interviews on the same channel here: https://www.youtube.com/c/SpiritAnswersPodcast/videos)

3) Alien Intrusion (Updated & Expanded) (by Gary Bates): https://www.amazon.com/Alien-Intrusion-Updated-Expanded-Bates/dp/0890514356

Preface

When actor Richard Dreyfus gazed up into the heavens during the hit film, Close Encounters of the Third Kind audiences looked with him, in rapt attention. Alien encounters cropped up like, well, crop circles. More films were released. Books detailed alleged abductions. NASA funded SETI, an effort to make contact with civilizations from other worlds. But is all this valid? Are there really alien civilizations in our vast universe? In Alien Intrusion, Gary Bates gives a thorough treatment of this fascinating subject. What is behind the numerous sightings from around the world? Does the U.S. Government have evidence of alien craft? Can we hope to make contact in our lifetime? The author comes from an unapologetic Christian perspective, but lets the facts speak for themselves. His expertise on the subject and ability to 'cover the bases' has earned widespread respect - even from many in the 'UFOlogy community' who may be uncomfortable with the startling conclusions to which he inevitable leads the reader. This was especially evident during an amazing three-hour interview with George Noory on Coast to Coast. This invaluable book will help Christians understand the issues, and be able to intelligently answer questions and engage in dialogue with a culture sure were are being watched from space. Heavily illustrated with photographs and drawings - an amazingly comprehensive 'cutting-edge' look at the UFO abduction phenomena.
​

Some reviews

• This book is very interesting. It takes you along a path where the author finishes with his conclusions as to exactly what alien abductions are all about. I have to say it is certainly thought provoking. Many who teach end times prophecy, believe one explanations for the disappearances of millions will be that those who disappeared were abducted by aliens. Who knows . Certainly gives you something to think about. After all Satan is THE great deceiver! It is certainly plausible!

• This is an outstanding book! I have been reading and studying about the ufo phenomena for years. It is a topic that has always fascinated me, I am also very much into science and science fiction. There are hundreds of books on this topic, but this one is quite refreshingly unique. The evidence, history, and arguments presented in this book are well reasoned and well thought-out. Few have really approached this complicated subject from the perspective of a Biblical Christian worldview. The insights contained in this book are illuminating, compelling, and fascinating! I highly recommend this book to anyone interested in ufology, aliens, and related paranormal phenomena. Whether you are Christian, non-Christian, whatever your worldview is, read this book! You will not be disappointed.

• Tons of interesting information. The point I found most convincing of the impossibility of Alien visitation/abductions is the enormouse light-years travel distance from even the nearest star to our solor system. Unless the Aliens have extraordinarily long life spans and can carry enough supplies in their space crafts to survive such long travel time, it really seems ridiculous to consider such a thing could be possible From the author's perspective, he agrees that there are beings (evil spirits) that can and do impersonate humans. However, their appearance is not benign and their intent is only evil. Aliens who inpersonate humans are, based on Mr. Bates premise taken from the Bible, are fallen angels and definitely should be considered a viable explanation for what some believe are harmless, advanced intelligent beings from outter space..

Regarding miracles, this might be of interest:

1) The Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles

2) Story Of Healings, Resurrections, and Miracles: With Dr. Keener

3) Craig Keener: Miracles (Part 1) [Talbot Chapel]

4) Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Today-Supernatural-Modern-World-ebook/dp/B08MXZVXLW/

Do miracles still happen today? This book demonstrates that miraculous works of God, which have been part of the experience of the church around the world since Christianity began, continue into the present. Leading New Testament scholar Craig Keener addresses common questions about miracles and provides compelling reasons to believe in them today, including many accounts that offer evidence of verifiable miracles.

This book gives an accessible and concise overview of one of Keener's most significant research topics. His earlier two-volume work on miracles stands as the definitive word on the topic, but its size and scope are daunting to many readers. This new book summarizes Keener's basic argument but contains substantial new material, including new accounts of the miraculous. It is suitable as a textbook but also accessible to church leaders and laypeople.​

 

[swordsman1]

Regarding Alien Abductions, you might find the following resources of interest:

1) Jesus Saves Man From UFOs, Alien Abductions w/Author Jason Dezember -- Spirit Answers Podcast EP 39


2) UFO Disclosure/Evolution Connection the Government Won't Tell You -- Spirit Answers Podcast EP 22


(Many more powerful interviews on the same channel here: https://www.youtube.com/c/SpiritAnswersPodcast/videos)

3) Alien Intrusion (Updated & Expanded) (by Gary Bates): https://www.amazon.com/Alien-Intrusion-Updated-Expanded-Bates/dp/0890514356

Preface

When actor Richard Dreyfus gazed up into the heavens during the hit film, Close Encounters of the Third Kind audiences looked with him, in rapt attention. Alien encounters cropped up like, well, crop circles. More films were released. Books detailed alleged abductions. NASA funded SETI, an effort to make contact with civilizations from other worlds. But is all this valid? Are there really alien civilizations in our vast universe? In Alien Intrusion, Gary Bates gives a thorough treatment of this fascinating subject. What is behind the numerous sightings from around the world? Does the U.S. Government have evidence of alien craft? Can we hope to make contact in our lifetime? The author comes from an unapologetic Christian perspective, but lets the facts speak for themselves. His expertise on the subject and ability to 'cover the bases' has earned widespread respect - even from many in the 'UFOlogy community' who may be uncomfortable with the startling conclusions to which he inevitable leads the reader. This was especially evident during an amazing three-hour interview with George Noory on Coast to Coast. This invaluable book will help Christians understand the issues, and be able to intelligently answer questions and engage in dialogue with a culture sure were are being watched from space. Heavily illustrated with photographs and drawings - an amazingly comprehensive 'cutting-edge' look at the UFO abduction phenomena.
Some reviews

• This book is very interesting. It takes you along a path where the author finishes with his conclusions as to exactly what alien abductions are all about. I have to say it is certainly thought provoking. Many who teach end times prophecy, believe one explanations for the disappearances of millions will be that those who disappeared were abducted by aliens. Who knows . Certainly gives you something to think about. After all Satan is THE great deceiver! It is certainly plausible!

• This is an outstanding book! I have been reading and studying about the ufo phenomena for years. It is a topic that has always fascinated me, I am also very much into science and science fiction. There are hundreds of books on this topic, but this one is quite refreshingly unique. The evidence, history, and arguments presented in this book are well reasoned and well thought-out. Few have really approached this complicated subject from the perspective of a Biblical Christian worldview. The insights contained in this book are illuminating, compelling, and fascinating! I highly recommend this book to anyone interested in ufology, aliens, and related paranormal phenomena. Whether you are Christian, non-Christian, whatever your worldview is, read this book! You will not be disappointed.

• Tons of interesting information. The point I found most convincing of the impossibility of Alien visitation/abductions is the enormouse light-years travel distance from even the nearest star to our solor system. Unless the Aliens have extraordinarily long life spans and can carry enough supplies in their space crafts to survive such long travel time, it really seems ridiculous to consider such a thing could be possible From the author's perspective, he agrees that there are beings (evil spirits) that can and do impersonate humans. However, their appearance is not benign and their intent is only evil. Aliens who inpersonate humans are, based on Mr. Bates premise taken from the Bible, are fallen angels and definitely should be considered a viable explanation for what some believe are harmless, advanced intelligent beings from outter space..

And you believe that aliens are abducting people in real life based on these stories?

Regarding miracles, this might be of interest:

1) The Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles


2) Story Of Healings, Resurrections, and Miracles: With Dr. Keener


3) Craig Keener: Miracles (Part 1) [Talbot Chapel]


4) Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Today-Supernatural-Modern-World-ebook/dp/B08MXZVXLW/

Do miracles still happen today? This book demonstrates that miraculous works of God, which have been part of the experience of the church around the world since Christianity began, continue into the present. Leading New Testament scholar Craig Keener addresses common questions about miracles and provides compelling reasons to believe in them today, including many accounts that offer evidence of verifiable miracles.

This book gives an accessible and concise overview of one of Keener's most significant research topics. His earlier two-volume work on miracles stands as the definitive word on the topic, but its size and scope are daunting to many readers. This new book summarizes Keener's basic argument but contains substantial new material, including new accounts of the miraculous. It is suitable as a textbook but also accessible to church leaders and laypeople.

All unsubstantiated hearsay stories. I've got a copy of Keener's Miracles book - there is not a shred of independent scientific evidence.

But people love to be titillated by stories of the paranormal and supernatural events. So the authors make a lot of money for themselves out of it.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

And you believe that aliens are abducting people in real life based on these stories?

I believe that it's very likely that a non-empty subset of alien abduction testimonies are sincere reports (i.e. people in this subset sincerely remember having had a close encounter experience with strange unknown entities or creatures).

There are different competing hypotheses to account for this sincere subset:

• Hypothesis 1: all of them (in 100% of the cases) hallucinated their abduction (i.e. they were fooled by their brains, their brains played tricks on them).
• Hypothesis 2: they were abducted by real aliens from another star system, who possess extremely advanced technology.
• Hypothesis 3: they experienced a deceptive abduction, carried out by the government [or insert your favorite conspiracy theory here], via animated fake aliens, that have been developed with extremely advanced, top secret technology unknown to mainstream science (e.g. very advanced robotics, biotechnology, genetic engineering, etc.)
• Hypothesis 4: they experienced a deceptive abduction performed by demons, as part of their Satanic end-times agenda.

Hypothesis 1 is speculative (it might be true for some cases, but asserting that it is true for 100% of the cases is unsubstantiated).

Hypothesis 2 is very speculative too.

Hypotheses 3 & 4 are consistent with an end-times apocalyptic Christian worldview (both could be true at the same time), but they are speculative nonetheless. Hypothesis 4 has supportive testimonial evidence.

By the way, if you have other hypotheses in mind, feel free to share.

All unsubstantiated hearsay stories. I've got a copy of Keener's Miracles book - there is not a shred of independent scientific evidence.

Your testimony is not very substantiated either. Where is the independent scientific evidence that the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is true?

But people love to be titillated by stories of the paranormal and supernatural events. So the authors make a lot of money for themselves out of it.

This is known as the hasty generalization fallacy (also known as: argument from small numbers, statistics of small numbers, insufficient statistics, argument by generalization, faulty generalization, hasty induction, inductive generalization, insufficient sample, lonely fact fallacy, over generality, overgeneralization, unrepresentative sample) -- courtesy of Hasty Generalization

How do you know that ALL book authors are dishonest?

It's not a matter of me not changing my mind. That would mean it is something I've intellectually decided for myself. It is the Holy Spirit working in the heart of the believer convincing them that the Bible is God's word. That's why, although Christians on this forum disagree on many things, there is never any argument over whether the Bible is God's word.

How do you know that other Christians on this forum have been convinced by the Holy Spirit? Where is the independent scientific evidence substantiating this claim? Remember that appealing to their testimonies doesn't count -- that's just hearsay.

 

[swordsman1]

I believe that it's very likely that a non-empty subset of alien abduction testimonies are sincere reports (i.e. people in this subset sincerely remember having had a close encounter experience with strange unknown entities or creatures).

There are different competing hypotheses to account for this sincere subset:

• Hypothesis 1: all of them (in 100% of the cases) hallucinated their abduction (i.e. they were fooled by their brains, their brains played tricks on them).
• Hypothesis 2: they were abducted by real aliens from another star system, who possess extremely advanced technology.
• Hypothesis 3: they experienced a deceptive abduction, carried out by the government [or insert your favorite conspiracy theory here], via animated fake aliens, that have been developed with extremely advanced, top secret technology unknown to mainstream science (e.g. very advanced robotics, biotechnology, genetic engineering, etc.)
• Hypothesis 4: they experienced a deceptive abduction performed by demons, as part of their Satanic end-times agenda.

Hypothesis 1 is speculative (it might be true for some cases, but asserting that it is true for 100% of the cases is unsubstantiated).

Hypothesis 2 is very speculative too.

Hypotheses 3 & 4 are consistent with an end-times apocalyptic Christian worldview (both could be true at the same time), but they are speculative nonetheless. Hypothesis 4 has supportive testimonial evidence.

By the way, if you have other hypotheses in mind, feel free to share.

We've been through this before. Whether the people were deluded or deceived wasn't my question. My question was do you believe these aliens abduction testimonies occurred in real life exactly as claimed? If not then you too do not believe fantastical hearsay stories.

I agree people can be deluded and deceived, which is exactly my rationale for doubting the unsubstantiated hearsay stories of miracles.

Your testimony is not very substantiated either. Where is the independent scientific evidence that the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is true?

But I am not asking you to believe a story of an empirical physical event like Keener is.

This is known as the hasty generalization fallacy (also known as: argument from small numbers, statistics of small numbers, insufficient statistics, argument by generalization, faulty generalization, hasty induction, inductive generalization, insufficient sample, lonely fact fallacy, over generality, overgeneralization, unrepresentative sample) -- courtesy of Hasty Generalization

How do you know that ALL book authors are dishonest?

Again you wrongly accuse me of a fallacy I have not committed. I was not basing my statement on any statistics let alone a small sample size.

How do you know that other Christians on this forum have been convinced by the Holy Spirit? Where is the independent scientific evidence substantiating this claim? Remember that appealing to their testimonies doesn't count -- that's just hearsay.

I am not appealing to anybody's testimony. So I am not believing hearsay or asking anyone else to.

I was giving the reason why all Christians believe the Bible is God's word.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

We've been through this before. Whether the people were deluded or deceived wasn't my question. My question was do you believe these aliens abduction testimonies occurred in real life exactly as claimed? If not then you too do not believe fantastical hearsay stories.

And I already explained to you that my epistemology is based on my personal subjective estimation of the probability of competing hypotheses. I don't claim to have absolute truths. I don't claim to be absolutely certain about anything (beyond the basic self-evident "Cogito, ergo sum"). I simply say "these are the best competing hypotheses I'm aware of, some of which I find more compelling, some of which I find less compelling, based on my reasoning and all the evidence I'm aware of thus far".

Therefore, if you define "believing something" as "being absolutely certain that something is true", then of course no, I don't "believe" (i.e. I'm not "absolutely certain", under that definition) that people are being literally abducted by interdimensional aliens or aliens from another star system / galaxy. But then I could say the same thing about pretty much everything:

• I'm not absolutely certain that you exist (maybe @swordsman1 is an illusion, maybe @swordsman1 is a program in the Matrix, maybe I'm a brain in a vat, etc.)
• I'm not absolutely certain of any of the four hypotheses I listed in my previous post.
• I'm not absolutely certain that miracles occur.
  
• I'm not absolutely certain that miracles do not occur.
  
• Etc.

In short, I'm not absolutely certain of anything pretty much. But that doesn't mean that I don't have my own personal subjective assessment of the evidence which leads me to consider certain hypotheses more "probable" or "compelling" than others.

If not then you too do not believe fantastical hearsay stories.

You are begging the question here. How do you know the stories are fantastic (i.e. pertaining to fantasy instead of reality)?

I agree people can be deluded and deceived, which is exactly my rationale for doubting the unsubstantiated hearsay stories of miracles.

I can say the same thing about your testimony. You can be deceived or deluded too.

But I am not asking you to believe a story of an empirical physical event like Keener is.

What is your definition of "empirical physical event"? Sounds too simplistic or reductive. If the physical and the spiritual interact with each other, it stands to reason that events can comprise spiritual and physical components to different extents. For example, If you believe in dualism (that we are physical bodies plus spirits), then every decision that a human makes is an example of the spirit of that person influencing their body. In other words, every human decision is an event that is both physical and spiritual.

Moreover, you have clearly asked me to believe things that include empirical physical components:

• You many times claimed that I "should" believe (with absolute certainty) that the Bible is true, including events such as Acts chapter 2, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. Those events definitely had physical components, if they truly happened as described. Where is the independent scientific evidence for the physical aspects of these events?
• Your testimony also includes physical evidence. If the Holy Spirit truly visited you and convinced you that the Bible is true, then that definitely influenced all your life decisions thereafter, and as I just explained, your decisions are both physical and spiritual (if dualism is true). Do you have independent scientific evidence that your life was dramatically transformed as a result of the Holy Spirit convincing you that the Bible is true? When did this event occur? Do you have independent scientific evidence that your life decisions were utterly different prior to this alleged event?

Again you wrongly accuse me of a fallacy I have not committed. I was not basing my statement on any statistics let alone a small sample size.

Then share the evidence that substantiates your claim. Where is the evidence that most Christian book authors who publish on miracles are dishonest? And more specifically, where is the evidence that Craig Keener is dishonest?

I am not appealing to anybody's testimony. So I am not believing hearsay or asking anyone else to.

I was giving the reason why all Christians believe the Bible is God's word.

How do you know that all Christians (notice the absolute truth claim) believe the Bible is God's word because the Holy Spirit convinced them?

 

[swordsman1]

And I already explained to you that my epistemology is based on my personal subjective estimation of the probability of competing hypotheses. I don't claim to have absolute truths. I don't claim to be absolutely certain about anything (beyond the basic self-evident "Cogito, ergo sum"). I simply say "these are the best competing hypotheses I'm aware of, some of which I find more compelling, some of which I find less compelling, based on my reasoning and all the evidence I'm aware of thus far".

Therefore, if you define "believing something" as "being absolutely certain that something is true", then of course no, I don't "believe" (i.e. I'm not "absolutely certain", under that definition) that people are being literally abducted by interdimensional aliens or aliens from another star system / galaxy. But then I could say the same thing about pretty much everything:

• I'm not absolutely certain that you exist (maybe @swordsman1 is an illusion, maybe @swordsman1 is a program in the Matrix, maybe I'm a brain in a vat, etc.)
• I'm not absolutely certain of any of the four hypotheses I listed in my previous post.
• I'm not absolutely certain that miracles occur.
  
• I'm not absolutely certain that miracles do not occur.
  
• Etc.

In short, I'm not absolutely certain of anything pretty much. But that doesn't mean that I don't have my own personal subjective assessment of the evidence which leads me to consider certain hypotheses more "probable" or "compelling" than others.

Then we are agreed. Hearsay stories of a supernatural events are not grounds to believe they really occurred. Whether they be stories of alien abductions or supernatural miracles. As you say people can be deluded or deceived. Which is precisely why hearsay evidence is inadmissible in the courts.

You are begging the question here. How do you know the stories are fantastic (i.e. pertaining to fantasy instead of reality)?

I am not begging the question at all (yet another fallacy you have wrongly accused me of). By fantastic I mean "very unusual, strange, or unexpected"

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fantastic

I can say the same thing about your testimony. You can be deceived or deluded too.

If you think Christians are deluded or deceived for believing the Bible is God's word, that's fine by me.

What is your definition of "empirical physical event"? Sounds too simplistic or reductive.

empirical = capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment
physical = relating to that which is material
event = something that happens

If the physical and the spiritual interact with each other, it stands to reason that events can comprise spiritual and physical components to different extents. For example, If you believe in dualism (that we are physical bodies plus spirits), then every decision that a human makes is an example of the spirit of that person influencing their body. In other words, every human decision is an event that is both physical and spiritual.

Your definition of physical does not match mine or any dictionary's.

You many times claimed that I "should" believe (with absolute certainty) that the Bible is true, including events such as Acts chapter 2, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. Those events definitely had physical components, if they truly happened as described. Where is the independent scientific evidence for the physical aspects of these events?

I have not asked you to believe that the Bible is true. If you don't believe the Bible that is your prerogative. Only the Holy Spirit can convince you that the Bible is true. Not me presenting scientific evidence.

Your testimony also includes physical evidence. If the Holy Spirit truly visited you and convinced you that the Bible is true, then that definitely influenced all your life decisions thereafter, and as I just explained, your decisions are both physical and spiritual (if dualism is true). Do you have independent scientific evidence that your life was dramatically transformed as a result of the Holy Spirit convincing you that the Bible is true? When did this event occur? Do you have independent scientific evidence that your life decisions were utterly different prior to this alleged event?

There is nothing physical about the Holy Spirit convincing me the Bible is true.

I have made no claims about my subsequent life decisions so I have no need to substantiate anything. That is you putting an argument in my mouth that I never made.

Then share the evidence that substantiates your claim. Where is the evidence that most Christian book authors who publish on miracles are dishonest? And more specifically, where is the evidence that Craig Keener is dishonest?

I never said that Craig Keener was dishonest.

I am getting rather fed up of you continually misrepresenting me.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Then we are agreed. Hearsay stories of a supernatural events are not grounds to believe they really occurred. Whether they be stories of alien abductions or supernatural miracles. As you say people can be deluded or deceived. Which is precisely why hearsay evidence is inadmissible in the courts.

It depends on your definition of "belief".

• If you define "belief" as "absolute certainty", then I agree, testimonial evidence is not sufficient in my epistemology. Not even scientific testing & verification can give you "absolute certainty".

• If you define "belief" as "assigning a probability greater than zero to a certain hypothesis", then I disagree, testimonial evidence can certainly raise the probability of a hypothesis being true in my epistemology. The more witnesses and the more credible they are, the more likely a hypothesis (or a set of a competing hypotheses accounting for the testimonies) is to be true.

If you think Christians are deluded or deceived for believing the Bible is God's word, that's fine by me.

If you think Christians are deluded or deceived for believing they have personally experienced or witnessed miracles in modern times, that's fine by me.

Your definition of physical does not match mine or any dictionary's.

So you are Physicalist (Physicalism - Wikipedia), you don't believe that spirit and matter interact?

Do you reject Interactionism (Interactionism (philosophy of mind) - Wikipedia )?

I have not asked you to believe that the Bible is true. If you don't believe the Bible that is your prerogative. Only the Holy Spirit can convince you that the Bible is true. Not me presenting scientific evidence.

I have not asked you to believe that miracles are true. If you don't believe in miracles that is your prerogative. Only the Holy Spirit can convince you that miracles are true. Not me presenting scientific evidence.

There is nothing physical about the Holy Spirit convincing me the Bible is true.

How do you know there is nothing physical about the Holy Spirit convincing you the Bible is true? Can you substantiate this claim?

I have made no claims about my subsequent life decisions so I have no need to substantiate anything. That is you putting an argument in my mouth that I never made.

So are you saying that your life decisions would have been the same had the Holy Spirit NOT convinced you that the Bible is true? The Holy Spirit's convincing you that the Bible is true had no causal effect whatsoever on the decisions you made thereafter?

I never said that Craig Keener was dishonest.

So are you suggesting that there is no reason to think Craig Keener is dishonest? So there is no reason to dismiss his extensive research on miracles? Great!

 

[swordsman1]

If you define "belief" as "assigning a probability greater than zero to a certain hypothesis", then I disagree, testimonial evidence can certainly raise the probability of a hypothesis being true in my epistemology. The more witnesses and the more credible they are, the more likely a hypothesis (or a set of a competing hypotheses accounting for the testimonies) is to be true.

Except such evidence is still hearsay. It is just an unsubstantiated story. There is no reason to believe a person claiming he raised someone from the dead, any more than someone claiming he was abducted by an alien.

If the courts won't accept such unsubstantiated evidence, then why should I?

If you think Christians are deluded or deceived for believing they have personally experienced or witnessed miracles in modern times, that's fine by me.

Great. When they can provide some hard evidence I may change my mind.

So you are Physicalist (Physicalism - Wikipedia), you don't believe that spirit and matter interact?

Do you reject Interactionism (Interactionism (philosophy of mind) - Wikipedia )?

No, I said your definition of physical does not match mine or any dictionary's.

Again you are trying to attributing claims to me I never made.

I have not asked you to believe that miracles are true.

Yes you have. You have presented endless Youtube videos and stories of miracles to convince me to believe in them.

Only the Holy Spirit can convince you that miracles are true.

Not true. I could be convinced if there is adequate hard evidence.

Not me presenting scientific evidence.

Oh if only you would!

So are you saying that your life decisions would have been the same had the Holy Spirit NOT convinced you that the Bible is true? The Holy Spirit convincing you that the Bible is true had no causal effect whatsoever on the decisions you made thereafter?

No. I am not making any claims about my life decisions.

So are you suggesting that there is no reason to think Craig Keener is dishonest? So there is no reason to dismiss his extensive research on miracles? Great!

No, I dismiss it because he is presenting hearsay. Not because he is being dishonest.

 

[Der Alte]

None have ceased

I agree completely. Not claiming anything except that I was present. In the 80s I was associate pastor of a Korean Baptist church. One Sunday morning one of the youth of our church was sitting across the aisle and one row back from me suddenly grabbed her arm and said "My arm feels funny." The youth group had a skating party the night before. They were playing a game which involved skating from one end of the rink to the other picking up an object and returning. This young lady fell injured her arm and was taken to an ER x-rays revealed a fracture. On Monday her parents took her back to the Dr more xrays. The Dr comparing the 2 xrays was baffled the previous xray clearly revealed a fracture, the second xray no fracture, no bruising, no pain.
.....Same church different time. One of the ladies in the church was in a hospital with terminal lung cancer. She had aleady lost one lung to cancer. The pastor, his wife, myself, my wife, a deacon and his wife went to pray for her. As we entered the room there was a strong unpleasant odor which was familiar. The same odor I smelled a few years earlier when my first wife died of cancer. The Drs said the lady would not live until morning. She did live two more years.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I already explained to you that my epistemology is based on my personal subjective estimation of the probability of competing hypotheses. I don't claim to have absolute truths. I don't claim to be absolutely certain about anything (beyond the basic self-evident "Cogito, ergo sum"). I simply say "these are the best competing hypotheses I'm aware of, some of which I find more compelling, some of which I find less compelling, based on my reasoning and all the evidence I'm aware of thus far".

Therefore, if you define "believing something" as "being absolutely certain that something is true", then of course no, I don't "believe" (i.e. I'm not "absolutely certain", under that definition) that people are being literally abducted by interdimensional aliens or aliens from another star system / galaxy. But then I could say the same thing about pretty much everything:

• I'm not absolutely certain that you exist (maybe @swordsman1 is an illusion, maybe @swordsman1 is a program in the Matrix, maybe I'm a brain in a vat, etc.)
• I'm not absolutely certain of any of the four hypotheses I listed in my previous post.
• I'm not absolutely certain that miracles occur.
  
• I'm not absolutely certain that miracles do not occur.
  
• Etc.

In short, I'm not absolutely certain of anything pretty much. But that doesn't mean that I don't have my own personal subjective assessment of the evidence which leads me to consider certain hypotheses more "probable" or "compelling" than others.




You are begging the question here. How do you know the stories are fantastic (i.e. pertaining to fantasy instead of reality)?



I can say the same thing about your testimony. You can be deceived or deluded too.



What is your definition of "empirical physical event"? Sounds too simplistic or reductive. If the physical and the spiritual interact with each other, it stands to reason that events can comprise spiritual and physical components to different extents. For example, If you believe in dualism (that we are physical bodies plus spirits), then every decision that a human makes is an example of the spirit of that person influencing their body. In other words, every human decision is an event that is both physical and spiritual.

Moreover, you have clearly asked me to believe things that include empirical physical components:

• You many times claimed that I "should" believe (with absolute certainty) that the Bible is true, including events such as Acts chapter 2, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. Those events definitely had physical components, if they truly happened as described. Where is the independent scientific evidence for the physical aspects of these events?
• Your testimony also includes physical evidence. If the Holy Spirit truly visited you and convinced you that the Bible is true, then that definitely influenced all your life decisions thereafter, and as I just explained, your decisions are both physical and spiritual (if dualism is true). Do you have independent scientific evidence that your life was dramatically transformed as a result of the Holy Spirit convincing you that the Bible is true? When did this event occur? Do you have independent scientific evidence that your life decisions were utterly different prior to this alleged event?

Then share the evidence that substantiates your claim. Where is the evidence that most Christian book authors who publish on miracles are dishonest? And more specifically, where is the evidence that Craig Keener is dishonest?



How do you know that all Christians (notice the absolute truth claim) believe the Bible is God's word because the Holy Spirit convinced them?

I believe that when you believe the Bible is perfect and without error and it is the one and only holy book for all matters of faith and practice, you are born again by water (as mentioned in John 3 by the Lord Jesus). When you believe Jesus is your Savior (John 1:12-13), and you believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day according to the Scriptures, whereby you will then naturally seek forgiveness with Jesus over your past life of sin saying the words “Lord Jesus” (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:12-13), you will be born again spiritually. By doing the above things genuinely … it will become more real to you than anything else on the planet. The Bible will be the truth to you. Jesus in what He says according to what it says in the Bible is all that will be the guiding factor in your life.

However, if the Bible is not 100% the truth to a person, I would say that they are not saved and they are still in spiritual darkness and in the devil’s kingdom justifying sin as if it was normal. They have not taken that step of faith yet to truly see.

In other words, a true believer or Christian will say… I was blind and now I see (with no doubts). For there are nominal Christians who have not acted in faith in what God’s Word says and they keep the Bible at a distance. They honor God with their lips but their hearts are far away from God.

Spiritual discernment to understand any biblical topic (Such as the one we are currently discussing) is simply not possible if we have not submitted to Jesus as Lord and we reject the Bible as truth. In short, a person is not even qualified to understand anything spiritually in the Bible if they are not abiding in God and His words and they don’t believe the Bible is the truth. They are simply in spiritual darkness still. They are still in the grip of the devil or the enemy and they need to be set free by believing God’s Word by faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (God) (See: Hebrews 11:6).

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Except such evidence is still hearsay. It is just an unsubstantiated story. There is no reason to believe a person claiming he raised someone from the dead, any more than someone claiming he was abducted by an alien.

The same can be said of the resurrection of Jesus, and of all the miracle accounts in the Bible

If the courts won't accept such unsubstantiated evidence, then why should I?

You decide your epistemology. If you want to have the epistemology of a court of law, sure, go ahead. But then you will have to abandon any beliefs about the resurrection of Jesus and Biblical miracles. Unless you want to have an arbitrary double standard, of course

Great. When they can provide some hard evidence I may change my mind.

Great, when you can provide some hard evidence that the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is true, I may change my mind.

Yes you have. You have presented endless Youtube videos and stories of miracles to convince me to believe in them.

I presented testimonial evidence, yes, and witnessed your reaction to said evidence. BUT I never asked you to believe the testimonies.

And I can say the same thing about your claim that Bible is the word of God. You defended that claim by presenting the evidence of your testimony and by quoting the Westminster Confession of Faith on the matter, which in essence is more testimonial evidence.

Not true. I could be convinced if there is adequate hard evidence.

Then I can say the same thing. It's not true that ONLY the Holy Spirit can convince me that the Bible is the word of God. I could be convinced if there is adequate hard evidence.

Oh if only you would!

Oh if only you would present hard evidence that the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is God's word!

No. I am not making any claims about my life decisions.

Straightforward yes or no question: did your life change after the Holy Spirit convinced you? Yes or no?

No, I dismiss it because he is presenting hearsay. Not because he is being dishonest.

If the courts won't accept such unsubstantiated evidence, then why should I?

Who said that courts of law do not accept "hearsay" (as you call it) without exceptions?

From Hearsay - Wikipedia :

There are several exceptions to the rule against hearsay in U.S. law.[1] Federal Rule of Evidence 803 lists the following:

• Present sense impressions and excited utterances
• Then existing mental, emotional, or physical condition
• Statements for purposes of medical diagnosis or treatment
• Recorded recollection
• Records of regularly conducted activity, including absence of entry in records
• Public records and reports, including absence of entry in records
• Records or births, fetal deaths, deaths and marriages made pursuant to law
• Records of religious organisations of facts of personal or family history, contained in a regularly kept record
• Marriage, baptismal, and similar certificates
• Family records
• Statements in documents affecting an interest in property
• Statements in ancient documents
• Market reports, commercial publications
• Learned treatises
• Reputation concerning personal or family history, boundaries, or general history, or as to character
• Judgment of previous conviction
• Judgment as to personal, family, or general history, or boundaries.

Rule 804 adds several additional exceptions where the declarant is unavailable:

• Former testimony
• Statement under belief of impending death in homicide or civil actions
• Statement against interest
• Statement of personal or family history
• Forfeiture by wrongdoing

Also, some documents are self-authenticating under Rule 902, such as domestic public documents under seal, domestic public documents not under seal, but bearing a signature of a public officer, foreign public documents, certified copies of public records, official publications, newspapers and periodicals, trade inscriptions and the like, acknowledged documents (i.e. by a notary public), commercial paper and related documents, presumptions under Acts of Congress, certified domestic records of regularly conducted activity, and certified foreign records of regularly conducted activity.[1]​

Furthermore, the label "hearsay" applies to testimonial accounts when the witness is not present. Therefore, by definition, you only need to have the witness in front of you to be able to interrogate them for it not to be "hearsay" but a first-hand, face-to-face witness account.

So, if you don't like hearsay, the solution is quite simple: become an investigative journalist, go out there and interrogate people, meet people face to face and interview them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The same can be said of the resurrection of Jesus, and of all the miracle accounts in the Bible



You decide your epistemology. If you want to have the epistemology of a court of law, sure, go ahead. But then you will have to abandon any beliefs about the resurrection of Jesus and Biblical miracles. Unless you want to have an arbitrary double standard, of course



Great, when you can provide some hard evidence that the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is true, I may change my mind.



I presented testimonial evidence, yes, and witnessed your reaction to said evidence. BUT I never asked you to believe the testimonies.

And I can say the same thing about your claim that Bible is the word of God. You defended that claim by presenting the evidence of your testimony and by quoting the Westminster Confession of Faith on the matter, which in essence is more testimonial evidence.



Then I can say the same thing. It's not true that ONLY the Holy Spirit can convince me that the Bible is the word of God. I could be convinced if there is adequate hard evidence.



Oh if only you would present hard evidence that the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is God's word!



Straightforward yes or no question: did your life change after the Holy Spirit convinced you? Yes or no?





Who said that courts of law do not accept "hearsay" (as you call it) without exceptions?

From Hearsay - Wikipedia :

There are several exceptions to the rule against hearsay in U.S. law.[1] Federal Rule of Evidence 803 lists the following:

• Present sense impressions and excited utterances
• Then existing mental, emotional, or physical condition
• Statements for purposes of medical diagnosis or treatment
• Recorded recollection
• Records of regularly conducted activity, including absence of entry in records
• Public records and reports, including absence of entry in records
• Records or births, fetal deaths, deaths and marriages made pursuant to law
• Records of religious organisations of facts of personal or family history, contained in a regularly kept record
• Marriage, baptismal, and similar certificates
• Family records
• Statements in documents affecting an interest in property
• Statements in ancient documents
• Market reports, commercial publications
• Learned treatises
• Reputation concerning personal or family history, boundaries, or general history, or as to character
• Judgment of previous conviction
• Judgment as to personal, family, or general history, or boundaries.

Rule 804 adds several additional exceptions where the declarant is unavailable:

• Former testimony
• Statement under belief of impending death in homicide or civil actions
• Statement against interest
• Statement of personal or family history
• Forfeiture by wrongdoing

Also, some documents are self-authenticating under Rule 902, such as domestic public documents under seal, domestic public documents not under seal, but bearing a signature of a public officer, foreign public documents, certified copies of public records, official publications, newspapers and periodicals, trade inscriptions and the like, acknowledged documents (i.e. by a notary public), commercial paper and related documents, presumptions under Acts of Congress, certified domestic records of regularly conducted activity, and certified foreign records of regularly conducted activity.[1]​

Furthermore, the label "hearsay" applies to testimonial accounts when the witness is not present. Therefore, by definition, you only need to have the witness in front of you to be able to interrogate them for it not to be "hearsay" but a first-hand, face-to-face witness account. So the solutions is quite simple: become an investigative journalist, go out there and interrogate people, meet people face to face and interview them.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Without faith is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6).
In short, one cannot mock the very source by which they are supposed to see spiritually from. If a person attacks the source (the Bible), they are simply not a genuine believer even if they claim to be one. They are only a believer on their own terms and not God’s terms based upon what the Bible says.

One must believe the Bible is truth, and they must believe all of what the Bible says in order to be able to see what it says spiritually. To question the Bible is the truth is simply to mock it and show that one has not actually took that step of faith yet that is necessary to see and believe.

 

[swordsman1]

The same can be said of the resurrection of Jesus, and of all the miracle accounts in the Bible

Not at all. There is a vast difference between the fantastical stories told by strangers on YouTube, and the absolute truth of God's word.

I presented testimonial evidence, yes, and witnessed your reaction to said evidence. BUT I never asked you to believe the testimonies.

Why present evidence for something if you didn't expect other people to believe it?

And I can say the same thing about your claim that Bible is the word of God. You defended that claim by presenting the evidence of your testimony and by quoting the Westminster Confession of Faith on the matter, which in essence is more testimonial evidence.

I never posted The Westminster Confession as evidence for my belief that the Bible is God's word, nor was my testimony evidence. No evidence can be provided for the inner witness of the Holy Spirit convincing Christians that the Bible is God's word. You either experience it or you don't. It is not something that can be 'proved'.

So, if you don't like hearsay, the solution is quite simple: become an investigative journalist, go out there and interrogate people, meet people face to face and interview them.

Why should I go to all that effort in order to believe them? If people want me to believe their fantastical claims a far simpler method would be to provide some hard indisputable evidence, such as a video of a miracle occurring right before the camera. But in an age where everyone carries a video camera in their pocket, no such evidence is ever forthcoming. Only an unsubstantiated 'story'.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not at all. There is a vast difference between the fantastical stories told by strangers on YouTube, and the absolute truth of God's word.



Why present evidence for something if you didn't expect other people to believe it?



I never posted The Westminster Confession as evidence for my belief that the Bible is God's word, nor was my testimony evidence. No evidence can be provided for the inner witness of the Holy Spirit convincing Christians that the Bible is God's word. You either experience it or you don't. It is not something that can be 'proved'.



Why should I go to all that effort in order to believe them? If people want me to believe their fantastical claims a far simpler method would be to provide some hard indisputable evidence, such as a video of a miracle occurring right before the camera. But in an age where everyone carries a video camera in their pocket, no such evidence is ever forthcoming. Only an unsubstantiated 'story'.

I don't see any reference in the Book of Acts concerning miracles on demand by Christians. What I do see are miracles of healing and casting out of demons directly involved with Paul's preaching of the Gospel to the Gentile pagans, and the raising of a dead believer was out of compassion rather to demonstrate any evidence of the "gifts". It is interesting when I read through the book of Matthew, that the majority of the healing that Jesus performed was because He was "moved with compassion".

The other interesting thing in Acts that when a miracle of healing occurred, multitudes of pagans turned to Christ. In the beginning of Acts the disciples prayed as the result of intense persecution that they be given boldness to preach the Word and that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus, resulting in a visible acknowledgment by the Holy Spirit that God had heard their prayer. I noticed that there was a definite link between the preaching of the Gospel and the signs and wonders. When the church was beginning to be established and the converts started to continue in the Apostles' doctrine, there are no accounts of signs and wonders within the Christian congregation.

I believe that God is doing the miraculous today, but not as a vending machine for self indulgent religious people who want people to see that their particular faction is at the cutting edge of God's will. When I hear of a remarkable healing of an unconverted person as part of the preaching of the Gospel to him or her, and that person, along with their family and friends turning to Christ, I am more inclined to believe it, because it is consist with how Luke recorded miracles of healing in the book of Acts.

 

[swordsman1]

I don't see any reference in the Book of Acts concerning miracles on demand by Christians. What I do see are miracles of healing and casting out of demons directly involved with Paul's preaching of the Gospel to the Gentile pagans, and the raising of a dead believer was out of compassion rather to demonstrate any evidence of the "gifts". It is interesting when I read through the book of Matthew, that the majority of the healing that Jesus performed was because He was "moved with compassion".

Nor do I. The only people who sought miracles were the Pharisees. And Jesus told them, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign". IMO the same is true of those today who crave miracles and have an unhealthy obsession for supernatural events.