It's Sad That So Many Christians Consider Themselves "New Testament" Christians

[1watchman]

There are many views of the Bible, but the essence of it is that the OT was about creation, history of mankind and the world, the life and religion of God's people then; and the tribe of Judah mostly honored God, while other tribes therein fought against it. They were given ceremonies and practices by God in typology of their Messiah and blessings to come. When He did come, the new leaders: who had rejected their Prophets (namely the Godly Isaiah) ---who told them much of their Messiah: Jesus-the Christ of God, urged the Romans to kill Jesus. Thus Israel was set aside for this terrible deed, and has been rejected by the world since to this day.

All Israelites must now receive the Lord Jesus today to have any part in our Creator-God. Their present religion is set aside until God gives them new faithful leaders, as shown in our Bible book of Revelation in a future time. They will then be God's earthly people according to His "covenant " with them in the OT.

The Israelites today must come to God the same as Gentiles --through the Son of God: Jesus-the Christ (God manifest in the flesh) as we see in the four Gospels of the birth of Jesus in the New Testament --who was God in human form. Israel of the OT ignored their Prophets to their loss when He came to them, as Scripture shows in the New Testament. So, we study the OT to learn the beginning, and see salvation and the new birth today in Jesus-the Christ (Savior -annointed One). Incidently, I met a Christian Jew in Israel, as our guide when we visited there. He was of the tribe of Nephali, and now loves the Lord Jesus.

Let us study the Gospels and Epistles to see God's redeemed people today and hope for ALL mankind. Let us who are "born again" saints (as John 3 and John 14) take "all the counsel of God" and "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God has told us. Hopefully Israelites today will cease their religious practices of the OT and bow to their Messiah before it is yet too late for them.

I will be pleased to chat with one on this at the Conversation page herein, if one wishes to study this out. I don't claim to know all things, but after 60+ years of Bible study, I believe I have the overall picture quite clear. --1watchman

 

[trophy33]

What LAW do you think he's referring to? The 10 Commandments? You think it's OK to MURDER, STEAL, LIE now?

As already said manytimes, there are universal moral laws for the society that are the same throughout times and places.

I am pretty sure its not ok to murder, steal or be a false witness under the American law you live under.

You are not an ancient Jew though, so you are not under the Mosaic law with its specifics, as you show in your practical daily life, without any doubt.

 

[The Narrow Way]

Of course I do not think that it's ok to murder, steal, and lie.

But that is not a reason to think we are under the Law of Moses. Do you need a law to tell you that it is not OK to murder if you have the indwelling Spirit?

Paul is quite clear: the Law of Moses belongs in the past.

So, EXACTLY WHICH LAW(S) are we no longer to keep, please give me an example.

 

[trophy33]

So, EXACTLY WHICH LAW(S) are we no longer to keep, please give me an example.

Sabbath, circumcision, hating enemies, food separation to clean and unclean, stoning adulterers or homosexuals, killing witches, hair style or dress style rules, housing rules, cooking rules, divorce rules etc.

Just randomly open Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy and pick one.

 

[expos4ever]

So, EXACTLY WHICH LAW(S) are we no longer to keep, please give me an example.

We are no longer required to obey any of them. Instead, we are required to obey the promptings of the Spirit and the teachings of Jesus.

 

[expos4ever]

Mt28:20
teaching them to be keeping none of some of all, whatever I direct you. And lo! I am with you all the days till the conclusion of the eon! Amen!"

Strawman. No one is saying we should not obey everything Jesus said.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

When Jesus said, ~

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:29.
​

WHAT were the "Scriptures" He was referring to? Clearly, it had to be the Old Testament as the New Testament was not yet written.

The influence of the Old Testament is seen throughout the New Testament. The New Testament writers included approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations, and if one includes indirect or partial quotations, the number jumps to more than 1,000. It is clear that the writers of the New Testament were concerned with demonstrating the continuity between the Old Testament Scriptures and the faith they proclaimed. They were convinced that in Jesus the Old Testament promises had been fulfilled. Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament - Holman Bible Dictionary -
​

Instead of being NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS, we should just be BIBLE Christians The same God inspired both the Old and the New Testament .

View attachment 314330​

I haven't heard anyone these days say they're a "New Testament Christian" as opposed to some other 'kind' of Christian. Who's saying this, sister?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The only thing that has changed is the CEREMONIAL LAWS that all pointed FORWARD to Jesus....when He came, and died on the cross, those laws were done away with, as they served their purpose of pointing everyone to HIM, THE LAMB. All the other laws (God's laws, not the man-made ones) are still intact. The Jews were His special people then, and we are, as Christians, today. The same laws He gave them to keep them healthy and happy, apply to us today. Nothing has changed.

So then also dietary laws and clothing laws.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul didn't contradict Yahshua. This is a misunderstanding of what Paul was attempting to convey.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Paul is not schizophrenic.

Agree, he is not. But it is hard to misunderstand Paul here:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not!

This cannot be misunderstood: Paul is setting aside the Law! How can you deny this? If it were not otherwise obvious, note how Paul anticipates the understandable objection to his clear claim that the Law is now set aside - he emphasizes that, although the law is now over, it was not a bad thing, it was not sin.

As for Romans 3:31, I agree this is a challenging text for those of us who believe the time of the Law is over. However, and this is key, there are many more texts, just like the one I have posted above, that say the opposite - that the Law is now over.

We agree that Paul is not schizophrenic; however, that certainly does not mean that we accept Romans 3:31 at face value and ignore all the other texts which indicate the Law is now over.

Here is my position on Romans 3:31: Paul is "sustaining" the Law in the sense of acknowledging it was a critical part of God's plan that has now come to an end. I plan to expand on this in later posts.

 

[expos4ever]

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

Paul is not schizophrenic.

The fact that Paul acknowledges the goodness / holiness of the Law does not imply the law is still in force. Many good things are time-limited. And Paul argues that although the Law was indeed a good thing, its time has come and gone. We know this from earlier in Romans 7:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

...and from Galatians 3:

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Agree, he is not. But it is hard to misunderstand Paul here:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not!

This cannot be misunderstood: Paul is setting aside the Law! How can you deny this? If it were not otherwise obvious, note how Paul anticipates the understandable objection to his clear claim that the Law is now set aside - he emphasizes that, although the law is now over, it was not a bad thing, it was not sin.

As for Romans 3:31, I agree this is a challenging text for those of us who believe the time of the Law is over. However, and this is key, there are many more texts, just like the one I have posted above, that say the opposite - that the Law is now over.

We agree that Paul is not schizophrenic; however, that certainly does not mean that we accept Romans 3:31 at face value and ignore all the other texts which indicate the Law is now over.

Here is my position on Romans 3:31: Paul is "sustaining" the Law in the sense of acknowledging it was a critical part of God's plan that has now come to an end. I plan to expand on this in later posts.

Many misinterpret Paul in Romans 7 and is about his struggle with sin. Paul is not telling everyone they are free to sin and makes this known if reading Paul's writings correctly. Even in Paul's days many misunderstood his writings to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16

Paul is saying if you keep reading in Romans 7 and go back to Romans 6 and Romans 8 and read the entire chapters that we are not under the condemnation of the law if one is keeping it and are walking in the Spirit. If you walk in the Spirit you are not sinning. John 14:15-18, Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32 Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and breaking any of the commandments is still a sin Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20, and in danger of judgement James 2:10-12, Revelation 11:19, Matthew 5:21 Hebrews 10:26-30 without repentance and turning from sin and walking in Christ. Jesus quotes we are to keep the least of the commandments Matthew 5:19, which means all of them.

One of the last verses in the bibles before the revelation of Jesus Christ!

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (outside links back to the commandment breakers).

Keeping the commandments of God is not burdensome and not worth the risk of living in perpetual sin in my opinion, but we all have free will.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

God bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The fact that Paul acknowledges the goodness / holiness of the Law does not imply the law is still in force. Many good things are time-limited. And Paul argues that although the Law was indeed a good thing, its time has come and gone. We know this from earlier in Romans 7:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

...and from Galatians 3:

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian

Paul says what matters and that is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19

 

[expos4ever]

I politely suggest that the following line of reasoning is weak:

- Scriptures tells us to "obey the commands of God"
- the Law of Moses comes from God
- Therefore, we all still need to follow the Law of Moses.

Let's be clear: there are many commands in scripture from God to specific people/ groups that are time limited (we are not, for example, to obey the commands to Solomon to build a temple!).

Given these sorts of complexities, one cannot simply argue that since the Law of Moses is from God, it is still in force for all of us. Or even any of us.

Even more importantly- both Paul and Jesus make very definitive claims that the Law is over with. So it is very hard to sustain the position that the Law of Moses remains in force solely on the basis of general instructions to "obey the commands of God".

 

[public hermit]

The tendency to divide the OT law into ceremonial, civil, and moral is anachronistic and ad hoc. I don't think an ancient Israelite would have recognized such a division; the law was simply the Torah. It's a latter construct superimposed on the law to justify not keeping all of it.

The law for Christians is the law of love, which if guided by the Spirit will always abide in the divine will far more effectively than a strict observance of a set of laws since God's command is love of God and neighbor. The law can serve other functions, pedagogy and the exposure of sin, but it cannot fulfill the divine intention without love. And, since it is possible to keep a set of laws w/o love, love fulfills what an observance of the law, alone, cannot.

 

[The Narrow Way]

I haven't heard anyone these days say they're a "New Testament Christian" as opposed to some other 'kind' of Christian. Who's saying this, sister?

It's very common....did you see DragonFox91's post?

 

[The Narrow Way]

So then also dietary laws and clothing laws.

No, I believe God wants His people today to be as healthy as He wanted the Israelites to be, so those laws didn't change...only the Laws that had to do with the Sanctuary ceremonies...as they all pointed TO JESUS COMING....and then when He came, that was the end of those laws.

 

[The Narrow Way]

Sabbath, circumcision, hating enemies, food separation to clean and unclean, stoning adulterers or homosexuals, killing witches, hair style or dress style rules, housing rules, cooking rules, divorce rules etc.

Just randomly open Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy and pick one.

Sounds like you can live just like the world and think you are on your way to Heaven

 

[trophy33]

Sounds like you can live just like the world and think you are on your way to Heaven

I will correct your statement:

Sounds like you can live just like Christian and think you are on your way to Heaven.

Anyway, heaven is not earned.

 

[expos4ever]

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,


Paul is not schizophrenic.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Paul is not a liar.

All right, let's talk about Romans 7.

I will make the argument in more detail later, but here is my thesis: Paul is describing the on-going plight of the Jew who believes the Law is still in force. But Paul knows it is not. Again:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Please explain how this text can be squared with the view that the Law is still in force.

 

[trophy33]

I will make the argument in more detail later

Do not try too much. After the Sabbatarians's arguments are debunked, they simply create another thread and start over.