Why are some Christians anti Evolution?

[SelfSim]

No it isn't. Humans have instincts.

Its hard to argue that humans as a species 'live in harmony' with the environment.
Various kinds of behaviours obviously distinguish human minds from non-human minds.

 

[renniks]

Isnt it an act of profound disrespect to deny that
the world works as it actually does, for any reason?

Isn't it profoundly disrespectful to people who question whether the world works as we are told it does if you just assume they could not be correct?

 

[renniks]

Also Jesus death and resurrection was supposed to be a sacrificial to pay the debt of our sins. And yet people continue to die to this day.

Do you understand that everybody who dies will be resurrected if they have accepted Jesus' death as payment for their sin?

 

[stevil]

Do you understand that everybody who dies will be resurrected if they have accepted Jesus' death as payment for their sin?

I understand that Christians interpret scripture in many different ways.
I once had a conversation with a SDA who was explaining to me the concept of a second death.
He was explaining to me that his god would bring even me back to life, would judge me for not believing in him and then would kill me again (a second death??) by fire. I said that sounds pointless and the god may as well just leave me dead. But he was convinced this was going to happen.

I also understand that Christians differ in their explaination of the Adam and Eve story with regards to god telling Adam and Eve that they would die on the day they ate the fruit.
https://www.quora.com/Why-didn-t-Ad...en-fruit-even-though-God-told-them-they-would
Why Didn’t Adam and Eve Die the Instant They Ate the Fruit?
The concept of "begin to die" or "spiritual death" or "second death" may be used by various Christians.
As I have said, I am not the right person to argue about theology. I'm not here to say who is correct or who is not.

But I am wondering if according to everyone's interpretation of the bible, if there was no actual physical death for anyone, people, animals, plants, bugs etc before the fall.
That would be something that conflicts with ToE as death is necessary for ToE to work.

 

[Occams Barber]

I saw a Youtube show once, where some guy who was a biblical expert explained that there is no definitive version of the Bible.

He explained that all we have is copies of copies of copies, and that there are many of these, and that they all differ from each other (not always significantly but quite often in trivial ways).
But there is no definitive word for word version.

Skip to 1m45.

Your theologian is the well known and highly credentialled Bart Ehrman who has held chairs in theological studies at both Rutgers and the University of North Carolina.

Ehrman has written around 30 books on biblical textual criticism including text books and NYT best sellers. His "Misquoting Jesus" is an interesting read.

Ehrman is also a former evangelical who became an agnostic atheist.

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia
OB

 

[Maria Billingsley]

No it isn't. Humans have instincts.

Yes to a degree. You cut off the first part of my comment " pure instincts ".
Humans do not have a fixed pattern of behaviour animals do so they have a pure instinct but we do not.

 

[SelfSim]

Humans do not have a fixed pattern of behaviour animals do so they have a pure instinct but we do not.

I can only see that statement as being highly context dependent. For example what's happening in Ukraine at the moment could be argued as being evidence of both predatorial instinct and survival instinct .. both are typically evident in conflict environments/contexts (and both are pretty fixed behaviours).
Also, why aren't instincts like those, just as 'pure' as some other animal's?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I can only see that statement as being highly context dependent. For example what's happening in Ukraine at the moment could be argued as being evidence of both predatorial instinct and survival instinct .. both are typically evident in conflict environments/contexts (and both are pretty fixed behaviours).
Also, why aren't instincts like those, just as 'pure' as some other animal's?

War is never a pure instinct.

 

[SelfSim]

War is never a pure instinct.

The behaviours are what I thought we were focused on though .. which is why I referred to 'predatorial instincts and survival instincts', being present in the context of 'a war'.

 

[Occams Barber]

War is never a pure instinct.

Check this out:
Gombe Chimpanzee War - Wikipedia

Apparently warfare between competing chimp 'tribes' is not unusual.

OB

 

[Larniavc]

Its hard to argue that humans as a species 'live in harmony' with the environment.
Various kinds of behaviours obviously distinguish human minds from non-human minds.

That’s not what I said. I disputed the previous poster’s definition of instinct.

 

[Larniavc]

Yes to a degree. You cut off the first part of my comment " pure instincts ".
Humans do not have a fixed pattern of behaviour animals do so they have a pure instinct but we do not.

Yes we do. Do you not know of the instincts that humans are born with?

Moro, Gallant, Rooting? Are you unfamiliar with those?

 

[coffee4u]

I did actually attempt to address this topic, in post 45 in this thread.

Here is what I wrote
"I don't want to get too much into discussion about the contents of the bible. I haven't read it, I have a very poor understanding of the Christian position on the bible.

I have had people talk about the concept of "second death".
As a way to explain why in the bible God said to Adam and Eve that if they ate the fruit then they would die on that day, and the snake told them they would not die. In the story Adam and Eve ate the fruit, but they did not die on that day.

Also Jesus death and resurrection was supposed to be a sacrificial to pay the debt of our sins. And yet people continue to die to this day.

Sooooo, is it possible that the idea of original sin bringing death into the world was more with regards to this concept of "second death"?????

Sorry if I sound silly here. Clearly I don't know what I am talking about."

I don't mind explaining.
As soon as Adam ate, both of them died spiritually.

Man is body, soul (mind) and spirit.
God then pronounced the curse, part of which was "from dust you were made to dust you will return" and he also said this is "because you listened to your wife and disobeyed"
It wasn't happening before that. We get old and die and the body returns to dust because of Adam's sin.

The Christian faith, while alive on earth is only about the spiritual side, the spirit coming to life. The body coming back to life happens later at the return of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Then those who alive at the time of the second coming
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
This is the bodily change from a body that dies to a body that is immortal.

Later everyone else is raised and there is the white throne judgment.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The second death is the obliteration of body, soul and spirit in the lake of fire and that doesn't take place until a thousand years after the return of Christ.

 

[ottawak]

I don't mind explaining.
As soon as Adam ate, both of them died spiritually.

Man is body, soul (mind) and spirit.
God then pronounced the curse, part of which was "from dust you were made to dust you will return" and he also said this is "because you listened to your wife and disobeyed"
It wasn't happening before that. We get old and die and the body returns to dust because of Adam's sin.

The Christian faith, while alive on earth is only about the spiritual side, the spirit coming to life. The body coming back to life happens later at the return of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Then those who alive at the time of the second coming
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
This is the bodily change from a body that dies to a body that is immortal.

Later everyone else is raised and there is the white throne judgment.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The second death is the obliteration of body, soul and spirit in the lake of fire and that doesn't take place until a thousand years after the return of Christ.

That certainly is one view of it. Does the "tribulation" one hears spoken of fit into your scenario?

 

[renniks]

But I am wondering if according to everyone's interpretation of the bible, if there was no actual physical death for anyone, people, animals, plants, bugs etc before the fall.

There's no evidence from the Bible that any person or any animal died before the curse.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Various kinds of behaviours obviously distinguish human minds from non-human minds.

That's also true of many, if not most, species with 'minds'; they're all different. Basic human social behaviours are not so different from closely related primate species, once you account for the complexity and sophistication of our cultures.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I understand that Christians interpret scripture in many different ways.
I once had a conversation with a SDA who was explaining to me the concept of a second death.
He was explaining to me that his god would bring even me back to life, would judge me for not believing in him and then would kill me again (a second death??) by fire. I said that sounds pointless and the god may as well just leave me dead. But he was convinced this was going to happen.

Maybe you should have told him that your god would bring him back to life, forgive him for not believing, and welcome him into eternal bliss - then you could have asked him which was the most merciful, forgiving, and loving god

 

[ottawak]

But I am wondering if according to everyone's interpretation of the bible, if there was no actual physical death for anyone, people, animals, plants, bugs etc before the fall.
That would be something that conflicts with ToE as death is necessary for ToE to work.

There is cessation of life for all creatures and has always been, but death as such can only come to those creatures with enough self-aware intelligence to make them capable of contemplating their own mortality. Likewise, that self-aware intelligence allows them to contmplate the consequences of their acts, which is what makes "sin" possible. That is how sin and death entered the world as a consequence of eating the symbolic fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not up on Christian beliefs, I understand that Christian is a vast umbrella term and so there are many people within this vast group and these people have differing beliefs.
But, for those Christians that are hell bent on fighting against evolution, what is the root of this resistance?

The Bible says that God created Adam in a day.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is cessation of life for all creatures and has always been, but death as such can only come to those creatures with enough self-aware intelligence to make them capable of contemplating their own mortality. Likewise, that self-aware intelligence allows them to contmplate the consequences of their acts, which is what makes "sin" possible. That is how sin and death entered the world as a consequence of eating the symbolic fruit.

There is evidence that other primates can assess the consequences of their acts, both prospectively and retrospectively. IOW, they know that social transgression will invite retribution or punishment and will prepare for that, and they can learn from the results of social transgression how to better prepare for the consequences next time (form alliances, have more than one escape route, etc). The same applies to risky non-transgressive behaviours, such as challenging the alpha male.