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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

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disciple Clint

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Correct. All dogs are animals but not all animals are dogs. It's the dogs we're worried about. Because the vast majority of gun owners will never kill another person doesn't really help ease anyone's mind because a tiny minority can kill a very large number of people very quickly.



Agreed! So we need to put a lot more of our tax money to improving healthcare across the board, ESPECIALLY mental healthcare. Since my favorite hobby (collecting synthesizers) is inherently less dangerous for those around me (with a few exceptions) I shouldn't have to pay extra to keep guns away from mentally ill people...but people who like guns and collect guns should. If improved mental health would mean fewer mass shootings then those who like guns should be HAPPY to pay a surcharge on their ammo and gun purchases to support this.
So now gun owners should be responsible for paying for mental health programs, because you have a hobby that in not associated with guns, wow some logic there.
 
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disciple Clint

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Are Americans simply a more dangerous "species" of human? Americans value killing others moreso?



That's not an argument for more guns, that's an argument for better social safety nets and better support for emergency services (ie higher taxes).

Guns are more fun than paying taxes, though. Pew, pew.
I am dealing with the realities of the culture we live in. We have a high rate of violent crime, the police have been defended and the responsibility for defending ourselves and our families is ours.
 
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disciple Clint

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No, you evaded the answer by claiming "he would have found another way" to commit mass murder.

Here's the question again: Would an individual be capable of replicating the results of the Las Vegas shooting if they were limited to muzzle loading muskets? Or lever action rifles? Or bolt action rifles? Or break action rifles?
yes in fact he might have been able to do even better if he had placed each shot instead of spraying, remember he had accumulated several guns, it takes very little time to load a bolt action rifle and even with minimal reloading killing 60 people using 12 preloaded rifles is quite possible for a well trained marksman. Just another thought it likely would have taken the police much longer to locate him if he was not spraying lead. So once again attempting to blame the AR 15 is not valid.
 
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TLK Valentine

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So now gun owners should be responsible for paying for mental health programs, because you have a hobby that in not associated with guns, wow some logic there.

It would certainly make sense for potential gun owners to take (and pass, of course) a mental health check before making such a weighty decision.
 
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disciple Clint

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We agree -- however, the people with the mental health issues who go on shooting sprees almost always acquire those firearms legally... and any attempt to address this part of the issue makes those who obey the law very nervous...
I am not certain that people who go on shooting sprees obtain the guns legally, why do you think that?
 
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disciple Clint

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It would certainly make sense for potential gun owners to take (and pass, of course) a mental health check before making such a weighty decision.
maybe, but it is so easy to buy guns on the street, for $50 I can buy a gun that I would pay $500 retail so I do not think it would keep guns out of the hands of people who want to kill people. BUT what does work, when a person goes to court for using a gun in a crime, if they were held in jail instead of being released without bond and then given a serious prison time instead of reducing the charge to a misdemeanor and again putting the person back on the street, in other words if the criminal justice system protected the public instead of protecting the criminal we would experience far less violence.
 
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SelfSim

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The idea that 'mentally ill people' (whatever that means?) are the key protagonists behind mass shootings, is not supported by the mounting evidence.

Counter terrorism units in the UK for example, have recently been speaking up about:
'a shift in the terror threat towards a younger cohort of self-radicalised people with extreme right-wing ideologies who are moving from discussing and sharing terrorist material to actually planning attacks'.
This category has overlaps with the 'Postal' condition of a temporarily warped, situational perception.

And the demographic group from that study, was found as being middle class, well educated and revering weapons designed for mass murder:
Mr Jukes said the youngsters being arrested were predominantly boys aged 14 or 15, some of whom were being targeted via online gaming messaging and propaganda videos presenting as first-person shooter games.
First person shooter games glorify weapons of mass killings.

Its more complex than just assigning a label of 'the mentally ill' and then using that as a criterion, when radical ideologies (leading to warped perceptions) are shown as being responsible for 'extreme acts':
He added that while some may imagine “this was all aligned to disenfranchised, poorer, disengaged white communities”, the evidence actually showed a “much more complex picture” which included children who were middle class and well educated.

How would 'mental health checks' and 'mental healthcare' programs detect and sort that out?

The implication there is need for a 'beefed up' counter-terrorism focus coupled with strong deterrence messaging for weapons designed for mass murder!
 
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Opdrey

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So now gun owners should be responsible for paying for mental health programs, because you have a hobby that in not associated with guns, wow some logic there.

No, if you like guns and you want to buy guns you should be willing to pay a surcharge for that pleasure. That money will go to increasing mental healthcare.

Unless you just mentioned mental healthcare as a means of avoiding discussion of the guns, is that it? Are the mentally ill just handy "scapegoats" or do gun enthusiasts actually CARE about avoiding more mass shootings?
 
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SelfSim

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I am not certain that people who go on shooting sprees obtain the guns legally, why do you think that?
A message of strong deterrence from using all weapons designed for mass murders, would cover both legal and illegally obtained weapons.

Distinguishing 'legally obtained' from 'illegally obtained' is splitting hairs and waters down the potency of a simple message of: 'Don't get involved with any weapons capable of mass murder'.
 
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TLK Valentine

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maybe, but it is so easy to buy guns on the street, for $50 I can buy a gun that I would pay $500 retail so I do not think it would keep guns out of the hands of people who want to kill people.

I had no idea gun shows marked down their prices so drastically -- I can understand the appeal.

BUT what does work, when a person goes to court for using a gun in a crime, if they were held in jail instead of being released without bond and then given a serious prison time instead of reducing the charge to a misdemeanor and again putting the person back on the street, in other words if the criminal justice system protected the public instead of protecting the criminal we would experience far less violence.

I don't know where you're referring to -- in federal and most state laws, crimes committed with guns carry mandatory minimum sentences upon conviction.
 
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Opdrey

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I am dealing with the realities of the culture we live in.

No, you're parroting the usual, meaningless phrases that always come up. Whenever anybody tries to get Americans to learn from how OTHER HUMANS do things the first thing out is "but we're DIFFERENT!"

We aren't. We just CHOOSE to be the way we are.

We have a high rate of violent crime, the police have been defended and the responsibility for defending ourselves and our families is ours.

That'ss OUR CHOICE. It isn't anything mystical about us. We WANT to be this way. We COULD be different. But that would harsh our mellow. We want to have guns and lots of them and we hate each other. We don't want to do anything to care for others or reduce poverty because that means we individually might have LESS! And we don't like that.
 
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Kylie

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I made a direct answer to your question, now are you sorry you asked or what exactly is it that you seem to be upset about?

No you didn't. You made a vague statement. I asked you specifically how he could have killed just as many people while not using a fire arm.
 
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disciple Clint

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No, if you like guns and you want to buy guns you should be willing to pay a surcharge for that pleasure. That money will go to increasing mental healthcare.

Unless you just mentioned mental healthcare as a means of avoiding discussion of the guns, is that it? Are the mentally ill just handy "scapegoats" or do gun enthusiasts actually CARE about avoiding more mass shootings?
"The majority of all mass public killers (some studies estimate as many as two-thirds) likely suffered from a serious mental illness prior to their attacks, and often displayed clear signs of delusional thinking, paranoia, or irrational feelings of oppression associated with conditions such as schizophrenia and bipolar-related psychosis."
The Role of Mental Illness in Mass Shootings, Suicides
 
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disciple Clint

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A message of strong deterrence from using all weapons designed for mass murders, would cover both legal and illegally obtained weapons.

Distinguishing 'legally obtained' from 'illegally obtained' is splitting hairs and waters down the potency of a simple message of: 'Don't get involved with any weapons capable of mass murder'.
where is the logic in what you are saying, do you honestly think that if you tell a violent criminal to not get involved with any weapons capable of mass murder, that your message is going to make any difference at all to him? now on the other had if your message is that all crimes committed with gun will result in a minimum 10 year term in prison, no exceptions, no plea deals, no early releases that might hold some water.
 
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disciple Clint

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I had no idea gun shows marked down their prices so drastically -- I can understand the appeal.



I don't know where you're referring to -- in federal and most state laws, crimes committed with guns carry mandatory minimum sentences upon conviction.
This is a serious subject but have your fun. If the criminal justice system actually worked as it was designed mandatory minimums might have some impact.
 
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disciple Clint

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No, you're parroting the usual, meaningless phrases that always come up. Whenever anybody tries to get Americans to learn from how OTHER HUMANS do things the first thing out is "but we're DIFFERENT!"

We aren't. We just CHOOSE to be the way we are.



That'ss OUR CHOICE. It isn't anything mystical about us. We WANT to be this way. We COULD be different. But that would harsh our mellow. We want to have guns and lots of them and we hate each other. We don't want to do anything to care for others or reduce poverty because that means we individually might have LESS! And we don't like that.
I do not know anyone who is like the people you are describing.
 
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disciple Clint

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No you didn't. You made a vague statement. I asked you specifically how he could have killed just as many people while not using a fire arm.
go find post #97, this time when you find it, READ it.
 
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SelfSim

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where is the logic in what you are saying, do you honestly think that if you tell a violent criminal to not get involved with any weapons capable of mass murder, that your message is going to make any difference at all to him? now on the other had if your message is that all crimes committed with gun will result in a minimum 10 year term in prison, no exceptions, no plea deals, no early releases that might hold some water.
What blows me away is that you'd even think that a crackdown on crime wouldn't accompany what I said.

Fund law enforcement, intelligence services and commence a campaign which tells it like it is, as far as weapons capable of mass murders!
These half-way, watered down messages of denial you keep sending out, are farcical and only make the situation worse than it is!
Get real!
 
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