I can’t support the Ukrainian Government any longer, even though Putin was wrong to invade

[The Liturgist]

I'm guessing the phone call is surrendering?

As I explained earlier, it would be to call the US, or NATO, or Switzerland, to use their resources to communicate with Russia and arrange a ceasefire to facilitate a negotiated conditional surrender. Not an unconditional surrender like that of Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan to the Allies, or effectively, by virtue of abandoning the country and our people and allies therein, of the Coalition Forces in Afghanistan to the Taliban.

 

[Hans Blaster]

As I explained earlier, it would be to call the US, or NATO, or Switzerland, to use their resources to communicate with Russia and arrange a ceasefire to facilitate a negotiated conditional surrender. Not an unconditional surrender like that of Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan to the Allies, or effectively, by virtue of abandoning the country and our people and allies therein, of the Coalition Forces in Afghanistan to the Taliban.

Putin doesn't seem like the type to surrender.

 

[The Liturgist]

What on earth would I need a church for?

I encourage everyone to join or rejoin a traditional Christian church so as to benefit from the incomparable and miraculous love of Jesus Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the reception of the holy and sacred mystery of the Eucharist, the medicine of immortality and the chalice of healing grace.

 

[The Liturgist]

Putin doesn't seem like the type to surrender.

Obviously, and he has both the conventional and strategic forces needed to avoid surrendering. At this point, Zelenskyy is subjecting his own people to unnecessary suffering and increasing the risk of his government collapsing and the entire country either being occupied by Russia or being left as a failed state, with complete lawlessness, not unlike Syria or Libya in the aftermath of the “Arab Spring.”

 

[Hans Blaster]

I encourage everyone to join or rejoin a traditional Christian church so as to benefit from the incomparable and miraculous love of Jesus Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the reception of the holy and sacred mystery of the Eucharist, the medicine of immortality and the chalice of healing grace.

But I don't believe any of that stuff is real, hence why I have no use for churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

But I don't believe any of that stuff is real, hence why I have no use for churches.

And I don’t believe in thermonuclear war, or war in general, hence I have no use for people who instigate or prolong wars, including Putin and Zelenskyy in equal measure.

 

[Hans Blaster]

And I don’t believe in thermonuclear war, or war in general, hence I have no use for people who instigate or prolong wars, including Putin and Zelenskyy in equal measure.

So you best peace idea is for the attacked to immediately surrender?

 

[The Liturgist]

So you best peace idea is for the attacked to immediately surrender?

That depends on entirely on the relative capabilities of the attacked and the attacker. Since Ukraine cannot win, but at most cause Russia pain, albeit at an enormous human cost among its own people, and since the issues that provoked the war are clearly defined and could be diplomatically resolved, this is a case where a negotiated peace is warranted. Similar to the peace between Mexico and the United States in 1848; legally, Mexico was in the right and was the victim of an unlawful revolt by Americans living in the state of Alta California, but when those Americans were backed by the United States, a vastly superior military power, it was better for Mexico to capitulate and retain their sovereignty rather than continue to fight on moral grounds and risk losing their entire country.

Likewise, when the US nuked Japan and US and Soviet forces began massing for an amphibious invasion, while hardliners in the IJA wanted Japan to go out in a blaze of glory, cooler heads prevailed, Japan surrendered unconditionally, but actually most of what Japan had sought in earlier attempts at a negotiated settlement, they received, including preservation of the Imperial polity, albeit with certain reforms such as the renunciation of deity by the Emperor.

Sometimes capitulation is the only reasonable and moral course of action, and the war in Ukraine is one of those times.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Sometimes capitulation is the only reasonable and moral course of action, and the war in Ukraine is one of those times.

Sure, but like I said before -- I don't think Putin is the surrendering type.

 

[returntosender]

As awful as the suffering is I have to agree with Biden for once. We can't do anything to bring on world war 3.
How can anyone blame Zelenskyy for trying to save his country any way he can.

 

[Kettriken]

The only tactical response for Christians, as shown by our Christ Jesus, is to lay down arms and both pray and work for peace.
Obviously, the stakes are much higher for active combatant, and those assailed by enemy forces. My sympathies and prayers are with you. I cannot know the choices you must make. I pray the love and grace of Christ for you.
However, global armchair quarterbacks can easily stop advocating for a war that they have no real stake in. Most plainly, if you are not part of this, do not give easy answers, particularly any that advocate violence.

 

[Nithavela]

Even if you feel his emotional rhetoric was justified, the man still lied through his teeth about wanting the killing to stop, which he could make happen in about two hours with one phone call, and is still making use of neo-Nazis, just as Putin is using, to call a spade a spade, jihadis.

You don't create peace by surrendering to warmongers. That only leads to another war down the road.

Most probably in Moldova, which is right behind Ukraine and has very little in the way of the army Ukraine is fielding.

The only way to a lasting peace leads through further bloodshed of the russian army by the ukrainians and of ukranian civilians by russian war criminals.

Besides, Khorne does not care from whence the blood flows.

 

[Nithavela]

Just out of curiosity, at what point should America get involved? How much more murder of innocents need to happen before we say enough is enough?

That really depends on which innocents get murdered.

A million innocent africans being murdered is far less important than a couple hundred innocent US americans being murdered.

 

[Bradskii]

That depends on entirely on the relative capabilities of the attacked and the attacker. Since Ukraine cannot win, but at most cause Russia pain, albeit at an enormous human cost among its own people, and since the issues that provoked the war are clearly defined and could be diplomatically resolved, this is a case where a negotiated peace is warranted. Similar to the peace between Mexico and the United States in 1848; legally, Mexico was in the right and was the victim of an unlawful revolt by Americans living in the state of Alta California, but when those Americans were backed by the United States, a vastly superior military power, it was better for Mexico to capitulate and retain their sovereignty rather than continue to fight on moral grounds and risk losing their entire country.

Likewise, when the US nuked Japan and US and Soviet forces began massing for an amphibious invasion, while hardliners in the IJA wanted Japan to go out in a blaze of glory, cooler heads prevailed, Japan surrendered unconditionally, but actually most of what Japan had sought in earlier attempts at a negotiated settlement, they received, including preservation of the Imperial polity, albeit with certain reforms such as the renunciation of deity by the Emperor.

Sometimes capitulation is the only reasonable and moral course of action, and the war in Ukraine is one of those times.

You are literally saying that if one force envades another and is almost guaranteed to win due to its greater fire power then the moral course is to immediately surrender. This is a viewpoint that seems completely detached from reality.

The people who are likely to die in this conflict are Russian troops and Ukrainian fighters and civilians. And from what I have seen so far, those on the Ukrainian side of the ledger seem keen to give their all, including their lives, in order to maintain their way of life. To preserve the freedoms that they have. To protect what is theirs. To fight for their colleagues and friends and families and to deny tyrany. To prevent Putin from increasing the number of people under his dictatorial rule. They are prepared to die for this. To effectively say that if you want what is ours, you will need to kill us to get it.

The rest of us should be eternally thankful that these people are prepared to give their all. Are prepared to sacrifice themselves for what is right. For daring to draw a line in the sand and threaten death to those that cross it. Or rather I should say 'lines'. As there'll need to be more that need to be drawn as the Russians makes progress.

What you should be doing is praying that their sacrifices will not be in vain. That they will dissuade Putin from his megalomaniac dreams. You should be giving them all the moral support you can to continue the fight. Except what you do say is that it's immoral to keep fighting. That their sacrifice (which they have chosen to make) isn't worth it. Give Putin some of what he wants!

And then the next time this happens? Do you maintain this position? Give him some more! It's not worth fighting for!

Well, some things are.

 

[Till Schilling]

This is pure appeaser logic. Pure 1938 Munich agreement stuff.

I only agree that the West should be careful and avoid giving an excuse to nuclear war by directly attacking Russian forces. Unfortunately that means a no to closing the sky. I hope and trust though they give the Ukrainians the necessary weapons to shoot down as many Russian planes as possible.

Ukraine is not and never was a model state. The level of corruption for one is breathtaking. Nevertheless it is much further on the road towards freedom, respect of the rule of law and democracy then Russia or Belorus. Which is why the vast majority of its population including the vast majority of Russian speakers does not want Russia in there. Also not in the Donbas.

As a European I understand that the Ukrainians are fighting for our freedom. Against a power of oppression and totalitarianism. We must do everything to make sure they win and their sacrifice is not in vain.

 

[The Liturgist]

The only tactical response for Christians, as shown by our Christ Jesus, is to lay down arms and both pray and work for peace.
Obviously, the stakes are much higher for active combatant, and those assailed by enemy forces. My sympathies and prayers are with you. I cannot know the choices you must make. I pray the love and grace of Christ for you.
However, global armchair quarterbacks can easily stop advocating for a war that they have no real stake in. Most plainly, if you are not part of this, do not give easy answers, particularly any that advocate violence.

Thank you for expressing the beautiful sentiments of the historic Peace Churches; I think in the 21st century the human potential for destruction has reached a point where our collective survival requires all denominations to become peace churches to varying extents, in particular based on the tragic failure in Afghanistan to deliver the people of that country from the Taliban after two decades of valiant effort and service, we have to re-evaluate responses to situations, since now, due to incompetent leadership, our military was evacuated from a country, and the same regime that hosted the orchestrators of 9/11, which we had reduced to a mere pockets of resistance, has like a cancer, come out of remission, and once more brutally subjugated women and children, and it seems reasonable to expect it to host the next Islamist man of evil like Al Baghdadi, or Osama bin Laden, or the Ayatollah Khomenei, and a long line of oppressors stretching back to Sudan, where we find Mohammed Ahmed al Mahdi, the first modern Islamic terrorist, who slaughtered the Egyptians and opponents of the self-proclaimed Mahdi in Khartoum, who were failed by Britain as we failed our Afghan allies, although General Charles Gordon chose to die with them as an unarmed Christian martyr, and was impaled while peacefully descending a staircase to meet the invading forces by a spear-wielding fanatic, much like the martyrdom of St. Thomas the Apostle at the hands of a Hindu Rajah in 53 AD.

The real answer is to promote peace through understanding. Apostasy rates among Muslims are increasing, and in the case of Russia and the other former Soviet states that are hostile to us, we need dialogue with them, although by no means can their actions in Ukraine be condoned.

My main concern as a Christian minister in this case is twofold, firstly, to bring peace as swiftly as possible, which in this case looks like a negotiated, but fortunately not an unconditional, surrender by Ukraine to facilitate a peace treaty and the lifting of sanctions, and secondly, to work to achieve forgiveness and reconciliation between the separated brethren of Russia and Ukraine.

Now, I must confess I am not the leader of a peace church; I would, for my part, condone military strikes of the swift, surgical variety, such as that used to discontinue the vital existence of Caliph al Baghdadi, although because he was a coward, he uses innocent boys as human shields and his actions led directly to their tragic death, but for a man responsible for the killing of so many young Yazidi boys and mem, the brutal torture of so many Christian boys and men, who were circumcised without anesthesia, and the rape of so many Yazidi girls and women, such actions were to be expected, but that man will never do that again.

In the case or Zelenskyy and Putin we do not see monstrosity on that scale, but rather, reckless men in the leadership positions of sovereign countries totally devoid of the prerequisite flexibility, patience and humility required by their station, and the tragic consequences of such men being in power. Without full military assistance from NATO, which cannot be provided without risking nuclear war, which is an unimaginable horror, Ukraine can only delay the inevitable, increasing Russian casualties, but at the cost of more devastation of Ukrainian cities, transportation systems and other economic infrastructure, and a loss of agricultural production, the net effects of which will, if the conflict is prolonged, result in poverty and starvation for Ukrainians, which the sanctions against Russia also are likely to cause. This is why we must persuade Ukraine to sue for peace before any more lives are needlessly lost, and any more economic resources are needlessly destroyed.

 

[The Liturgist]

The only tactical response for Christians, as shown by our Christ Jesus, is to lay down arms and both pray and work for peace.
Obviously, the stakes are much higher for active combatant, and those assailed by enemy forces. My sympathies and prayers are with you. I cannot know the choices you must make. I pray the love and grace of Christ for you.
However, global armchair quarterbacks can easily stop advocating for a war that they have no real stake in. Most plainly, if you are not part of this, do not give easy answers, particularly any that advocate violence.

Thank you for expressing the beautiful sentiments of the historic Peace Churches; I think in the 21st century the human potential for destruction has reached a point where our collective survival requires all denominations to become peace churches to varying extents, in particular based on the tragic failure in Afghanistan to deliver the people of that country from the Taliban after two decades of valiant effort and service, we have to re-evaluate responses to situations, since now, due to incompetent leadership, our military was evacuated from a country, and the same regime that hosted the orchestrators of 9/11, which we had reduced to a mere pockets of resistance, has like a cancer, come out of remission, and once more brutally subjugated women and children, and it seems reasonable to expect it to host the next Islamist man of evil like Al Baghdadi, or Osama bin Laden, or the Ayatollah Khomenei, and a long line of oppressors stretching back to Sudan, where we find Mohammed Ahmed al Mahdi, the first modern Islamic terrorist, who slaughtered the Egyptians and opponents of the self-proclaimed Mahdi in Khartoum, who were failed by Britain as we failed our Afghan allies, although General Charles Gordon chose to die with them as an unarmed Christian martyr, and was impaled while peacefully descending a staircase to meet the invading forces by a spear-wielding fanatic, much like the martyrdom of St. Thomas the Apostle at the hands of a Hindu Rajah in 53 AD.

The real answer is to promote peace through understanding. Apostasy rates among Muslims are increasing, and in the case of Russia and the other former Soviet states that are hostile to us, we need dialogue with them, although by no means can their actions in Ukraine be condoned.

My main concern as a Christian minister in this case is twofold, firstly, to bring peace as swiftly as possible, which in this case looks like a negotiated, but fortunately not an unconditional, surrender by Ukraine to facilitate a peace treaty and the lifting of sanctions, and secondly, to work to achieve forgiveness and reconciliation between the separated brethren of Russia and Ukraine.

Now, I must confess I am not the leader of a peace church; I would, for my part, condone military strikes of the swift, surgical variety, such as that used to discontinue the vital existence of Caliph al Baghdadi, although because he was a coward, he uses innocent boys as human shields and his actions led directly to their tragic death, but for a man responsible for the killing of so many young Yazidi boys and mem, the brutal torture of so many Christian boys and men, who were circumcised without anesthesia, and the rape of so many Yazidi girls and women, such actions were to be expected, but that man will never do that again.

In the case or Zelenskyy and Putin we do not see monstrosity on that scale, but rather, reckless men in the leadership positions of sovereign countries totally devoid of the prerequisite flexibility, patience and humility required by their station, and the tragic consequences of such men being in power. Without full military assistance from NATO, which cannot be provided without risking nuclear war, which is an unimaginable horror, Ukraine can only delay the inevitable, increasing Russian casualties, but at the cost of more devastation of Ukrainian cities, transportation systems and other economic infrastructure, and a loss of agricultural production, the net effects of which will, if the conflict is prolonged, result in poverty and starvation for Ukrainians, which the sanctions against Russia also are likely to cause. This is why we must persuade Ukraine to sue for peace before any more lives are needlessly lost, and any more economic resources are needlessly destroyed.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

With all due respect, that’s complete nonsense. The Azerbaijani invasion and ethnic cleansing of most of the territory of the Armenian Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh is infinitely worse than anything that has happened in Ukraine, and for that matter, the illegal Saudi invasion of Yemen, which the US has supported without any morally justifiable reasons and which has caused immense suffering, is also worse than what is going on in Ukraine, and for that matter we have the issue of many other war criminals and criminal regimes that have done much worse, including Azerbaijan, Turkey, the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, Iran, Burma, Indonesia, Venezuela, Cuba, the People’s Republic of China, Kosovo, and many others.

The PRC has been pursuing an actual genocide against the Uighurs people, and a terrible genocide was waged against the Rohingya people in Myanmar, under the presidency of the the recently deposed Burmese demagogue Aung San Suu Kyi, who was stupidly awarded a Nobel Peace Prize, which cannot be revoked, but her other awards for opposing the military dictatorship were revoked; she was deposed, tried and convicted of voter fraud, corruption and violation of covid-19 regulations by the Burmese military, and our President wants to sanction Myanmar for that, never mind that the President they deposed was at the very least supportive of, and an apologist for, an actual genocide. It has also been alleged that Saudi actions against the Houthi people of Yemen are genocidal in nature, and I believe this is the case, and we accomplished this with our own weaponry.

So respectfully, what you propose makes no sense, because these genocides involve governments from around the world turning a blind eye, or even, in the case of Kosovo, using the threat of a genocide by Yugoslav dictator Slobodan Milosevic to justify bombing civillian targets in Belgrade and elsewhere on a massive scale and facilitating the ethnic cleansing of Serbians from many parts of Kosovo, and a reduction in the ethnic Serbian population, and the forcible separation from Serbia of the historic birthplace of Serbian culture, in order to protect a population comprised largely of Muslims who had emigrated from the dystopian Hoxha regime or the economic basket-case that replaced it; however, Albania proper has a very large Eastern Orthodox population and a very large Roman Catholic population, no one ever provided assistance to them or the Muslims when Hoxha banned all religion, Albania had by 1975 alienated all Communist allies except North Korea, and could have been liberated at that time. Slobodan Milosevic was a major war criminal due to his actions in Bosnia, but NATO’s attacks on civilian targets in Belgrade were similar to what is happening in Ukraine, and they also ensured Serbian citizens would hate us for a long time.

I am opposed to the death penalty; I would note Russia actually doesn’t have the death penalty, and furthermore, to claim the only way that peace can be achieved is to execute Putin just makes no sense to me, given that the situation in Ukraine has not yet acquired genocidal attributes, whereas the situation in Myanmar and the PRC and Yemen is genocidal, and the situation with Nagorno-Karabakh was an ethnic cleansing. If the US wants to take military action for beneficent reasons, there are places where we can do it and hold dictators to account, like Myanmar, Yemen and possibly Azerbaijan, without risking nuclear war. And Turkey should be expelled from NATO for past genocidal conduct against the Kurds and Armenians, Syriac Orthodox Christians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks in 1915, and ongoing military campaigns and ethnic cleansing against the Kurds, if we want to be completely fair.

Is Putin a monster? Yes. Is any US President in recent years even remotely as bad? No. But as our Lord said, regarding another proposed implementation of the death penalty, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Only in this case, because Russia is a nuclear superpower, like the US and the PRC, we can’t act even if we want to (which we certainly would in the case of China, in which the Communists have turned religious persecution and genocide into national pastimes, on a par with football and baseball in the US, or soccer and rugby in the UK).

I never said anything about going to war with Russia. I am actually predicting the Russian people to rise up and overthrow Putin themselves. But my position remains, there can be no peace with Russia until Putin is brought to justice. Primarily because he will not stop until the USSR is back to it's former glory. Russia is even demanding Alaska and parts of California. Shall we give him those as well? Have we learned nothing from circa 1930s Europe who thought appeasement with Hitler would bring peace? Like it or not, there will be a war with Russia. Right now, NATO is just waiting for Russia to throw the first punch like Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

And you would happily pull that trigger? For peace? The only way for peace? Yikes.

No, I would be grieved...but willing. Nuclear deterrence is only effective if the enemy is convinced you are willing to push the button. God willing, it would never come to that.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

With all due respect, that’s complete nonsense. The Azerbaijani invasion and ethnic cleansing of most of the territory of the Armenian Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh is infinitely worse than anything that has happened in Ukraine, and for that matter, the illegal Saudi invasion of Yemen, which the US has supported without any morally justifiable reasons and which has caused immense suffering, is also worse than what is going on in Ukraine,

You are comparing a THREE WEEK INVASION to events that lasted 8 or more years.

Well gee, yeah, I wonder why the causality counts are so low.

Russia thanks you for not supporting the Ukraine.