Immersion only advocates, what are your views on Mark 7:3,4 ??

[johnjanuary1984]

"The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing [Greek: washing], holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash [Greek: baptize]. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing [Greek: baptizing] of cups, pitchers and kettles."

I've been taught that these 2 verses along with Mark 1:8 prove that the Greek word "baptize" means to use water in various ways: immerse, wash, pour, or sprinkle.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

Or maybe I should of asked ,, Does the Greek in Mark 7:3,4 disprove immersion only theology ?

 

[dqhall]

Or maybe I should of asked ,, Does the Greek in Mark 7:3,4 disprove immersion only theology ?

During Soviet Union times Christians were arrested and locked up in prison. Reverend Richard Wurmbrand was an inmate preaching in a Romanian prison. He baptized someone with a cup of water. Western church leaders paid a ransomeware to get Wurmbrand out of prison. Wurmbrand and his wife founded an international aid organization now known as, “Voice of the Martyrs.”

John the Baptist was preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. If one repents, his behavior will be changed for the better. A repentant person abstains from sexual immorality, lies, theft, murder, drunkenness, etc. The repentance part is more important than being immersed in a pool of water.

 

[Aussie Pete]

"The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing [Greek: washing], holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash [Greek: baptize]. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing [Greek: baptizing] of cups, pitchers and kettles."

I've been taught that these 2 verses along with Mark 1:8 prove that the Greek word "baptize" means to use water in various ways: immerse, wash, pour, or sprinkle.

Maybe so, but I don't know sprinkling something gets it clean. I understand the Lutheran position on baptism. I suppose it's possible to argue the means of baptism. However, I cannot accept that babies should be "baptised" by any meaning of the word. Baptism follows "preach the gospel". Infants have no understanding so the gospel means nothing to them.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

Maybe so, but I don't know sprinkling something gets it clean. I understand the Lutheran position on baptism. I suppose it's possible to argue the means of baptism. However, I cannot accept that babies should be "baptised" by any meaning of the word. Baptism follows "preach the gospel". Infants have no understanding so the gospel means nothing to them.

Lutherans baptize little children because they are included in Christ's words "all nations".

 

[Aussie Pete]

Lutherans baptize little children because they are included in Christ's words "all nations".

I got the lecture from Lutheran theologian. I forget his name, it was a different forum. I get the point, I just don't agree with it. You can preach the gospel to an infant until your tongue wears out. They will not be saved because they cannot understand the gospel. You may as well baptise your dog.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

I got the lecture from Lutheran theologian. I forget his name, it was a different forum. I get the point, I just don't agree with it. You can preach the gospel to an infant until your tongue wears out. They will not be saved because they cannot understand the gospel. You may as well baptise your dog.

So is Isaiah 55:11 a lie ???

 

[Minister Monardo]

And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing [Greek: baptizing] of cups, pitchers and kettles."

Since these items were washed in a basin, not under a faucet, why then would they
not all be immersed in the washing?

 

[Minister Monardo]

"The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing [Greek: washing]

washing [G3538]-nipto
Used 13 times in the Gospel of John, where the washing would NOT involve immersion.
John 9:7 And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent).
So he went and washed, and came back seeing.
John 13:5 After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet,
and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.

 

[Minister Monardo]

"The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing [Greek: washing], holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash [Greek: baptize]. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing [Greek: baptizing] of cups, pitchers and kettles."

I've been taught that these 2 verses along with Mark 1:8 prove that the Greek word "baptize" means to use water in various ways: immerse, wash, pour, or sprinkle.

Another form of washing that would correspond to "sprinkling", but NOT used for baptism.
Luke 7:
44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman?
I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed
My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head.
[G1026] brecho=rain, sprinkling, drops(of tears).
Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone
from heaven and destroyed all.

 

[Minister Monardo]

"The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing [Greek: washing], holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash [Greek: baptize]. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing [Greek: baptizing] of cups, pitchers and kettles."

I've been taught that these 2 verses along with Mark 1:8 prove that the Greek word "baptize" means to use water in various ways: immerse, wash, pour, or sprinkle.

1 Corinthians 6:
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The saints are not washed in water, they are blood washed.
Revelation 1:5 Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead,
and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us
from our sins in His own blood.

If that is the case, what is the significance of being immersed in water?
Romans 6:
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ
was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk
in newness of life.

Water immersion is symbolic of death of the old man, burial, and resurrection,
"by the Spirit of our God".

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure thereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Lutherans baptize little children because they are included in Christ's words "all nations".

Children are under the covering of believing parents:
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife,
and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children
would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Let's say a village of pagans rejected the Gospel, so I offered to give all their children
"a bath" before I shake the dust from my feet on move on, and then returned them
to their parents. Are they saved?
Salvation comes to those who believe the Gospel. The efficacy of baptism is
predicated by belief in the Message.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe
will be condemned.

 

[eleos1954]

"The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing [Greek: washing], holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash [Greek: baptize]. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing [Greek: baptizing] of cups, pitchers and kettles."

I've been taught that these 2 verses along with Mark 1:8 prove that the Greek word "baptize" means to use water in various ways: immerse, wash, pour, or sprinkle.

The washing of hands, cups, pitchers etc. was a manmade tradition, not a biblical teaching. They had added this tradition as law and Jesus called them out on it. Jesus uses this scenario to bring out the point for His reason for being here ... ie that "clean" is from the inside ... not the outside ... pointing out their hypocrisy.

Matthew 23

25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.

The definition of the Greek is found here: meaning submerge.

Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink

 

[dqhall]

The washing of hands, cups, pitchers etc. was a manmade tradition, not a biblical teaching. They had added this tradition as law and Jesus called them out on it. Jesus uses this scenario to bring out the point for His reason for being here ... ie that "clean" is from the inside ... not the outside ... pointing out their hypocrisy.

Matthew 23

25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.

The definition of the Greek is found here: meaning submerge.

Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink

Israel has a summer dry season without rain. There were immersion pools with steps leading down into them in Jewish neighborhoods for cleansing after becoming ritually unclean. These were called mikvehs. These may have transmitted water born diseases like e. coli, cholera or polio.

They had water in cisterns, wells, springs, few rivers and the lake they called the Sea of Galilee. At the Byzantine synagogue in Capernaum they had several large limestone water jars used to store water for purification. Part of the Talmud is devoted to washing pots, utensils, quarantine and washing people.

Stone Water Jars at Capernaum