Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

[Earburner]

The whatawhodawhat now?

-CryptoLutheran

OK, is that "Crypto" language?. What do you mean by that expression?

 

[Think...]

According to Amil thinking, Zechariah 14 was fulfilled in Jesus' first appearance.

Who do you know that's Amil that thinks that?

Or who made the claim that Amils think that? Besides you.

Are you saying they think all of Zech 14 happened in the spirit realm when Jesus came?

 

[Earburner]

Who do you know that's Amil that thinks that?

Or who made the claim that Amils think that? Besides you.

Are you saying they think all of Zech 14 happened in the spirit realm when Jesus came?

I have presented the following in another thread, of which I have copied and posted here:

All of the following of Zech.14 Verses 16 to 21, has come to pass by Jesus first appearance, and is continuing to this day.
[16a] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem
[16b] shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

> [16a] That event took place in 70 AD., being the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, under the Roman Titus, as prophesied of in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
> [16b-17] We all have been in the time of the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths, ever since the day of Pentecost.
In the temporary dwelling place of our bodies, the Lord has been dwelling/tabernacling within born again Christians, through the Person of the Holy Spirit, aka symbolically, the "rain".
> 2 Corinthians 4[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
> [7] But we have this [His] treasure in [our] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

[18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain [aka the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:8-9]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen [all the unsaved] that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles [repentance towards God through Jesus]. Again, see Romans 8:9.
[19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles [have faith in Jesus and recieve God's Holy Spirit].

[20] In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
[21] Yea, every pot [born again Christian, aka a new creature in His holiness] in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice [present themselves to God, in the belief of God's Sacrifice- Romans 12:1] shall come and take of them [we, who are the new creatures preaching the Gospel] and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite [sinners, aka the tares] in the house of the LORD of hosts [Heavenly Jerusalem].
> It is now, ever since Pentecost, that "Jerusalem above" is being "safely inhabited".

 

[Earburner]

I don't believe in the Platonic idea of the soul as a kind of "ghost in the machine"; I believe that is false and contrary to Christian teaching. So we aren't embodied souls, we are ensouled bodies.

However that you may present it, do you believe that all unsaved people have an eternal soul, with an inherent ability to live beyond death and the grave?
If so, how do you interpret John 3:18?

 

[Timtofly]

According to Amil thinking, Zechariah 14 was fulfilled in Jesus' first appearance.

Jesus set up animal sacrifices for the last 1992 years?

Certainly not all Amil think this:

Zechariah 14 is one of the most difficult to interpret passages in all of scripture. But, for some reason that I'll never understand, you can't be convinced of Amil unless we can prove Zechariah 14 doesn't relate to a time period after the second coming. I have told you this a number of times before, but interpreting Zechariah 14 as referring to a thousand year time period after the return of Christ is very problematic because verses 16-21 makes reference to animal sacrifices being performed. Which you try to get around in an extremely unconvincing way. You take the whole chapter literally up until verse 16 which seems rather convenient.

 

[Think...]

I have presented the following in another thread, of which I have copied and posted here:

All of the following of Zech.14 Verses 16 to 21, has come to pass by Jesus first appearance, and is continuing to this day.
[16a] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem
[16b] shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

> [16a] That event took place in 70 AD., being the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, under the Roman Titus, as prophesied of in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
> [16b-17] We all have been in the time of the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths, ever since the day of Pentecost.
In the temporary dwelling place of our bodies, the Lord has been dwelling/tabernacling within born again Christians, through the Person of the Holy Spirit, aka symbolically, the "rain".
> 2 Corinthians 4[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
> [7] But we have this [His] treasure in [our] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

[18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain [aka the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:8-9]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen [all the unsaved] that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles [repentance towards God through Jesus]. Again, see Romans 8:9.
[19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles [have faith in Jesus and recieve God's Holy Spirit].

[20] In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
[21] Yea, every pot [born again Christian, aka a new creature in His holiness] in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice [present themselves to God, in the belief of God's Sacrifice- Romans 12:1] shall come and take of them [we, who are the new creatures preaching the Gospel] and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite [sinners, aka the tares] in the house of the LORD of hosts [Heavenly Jerusalem].
> It is now, ever since Pentecost, that "Jerusalem above" is being "safely inhabited".

I think I can buy all that. I'll look it over again, but it looks to me like you're saying it all happens in a spiritual way.

That doesn't support PreMill at all.

Plausible.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus set up animal sacrifices for the last 1992 years?
Certainly not all Amil think this:

You are not following through with what the Holy Spirit is saying in what I wrote. Here it is again:
"Zechariah 14[21] Yea, every pot [born again Christian, aka a new creature in His holiness] in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice [present themselves to God, in the belief of God's Sacrifice- Romans 12:1] "
Romans 12[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
> We as Born Again Christians sacrifice our lives through Christ to God, so that Christ can live through us for His purposes.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Zechariah 14 is a ‘double fulfillment prophecy.’ The initial fulfillment was the destruction of Jerusalem by armies in AD70 followed by the spread of the gospel (in symbolic language) throughout the Church age. However this early fulfillment prefigures a final and complete destruction which happens at Christ’s return.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus told us to fear God, who can affect body and soul, and there are souls in heaven now awaiting their physical resurrection, and if we are not alive until we breath and become souls, then all babies who die din womb not even alive!

I agree.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, one must put the "religious spin" on it, even though we both know that when God created Adam, and every living cell within his body, was an individual living organism, requiring/craving Oxygen to stay living.
God knew that He only had a few minutes to breathe into Adam's nostrils to activate/pressurize the working of his diaphragm, so that Adam could become an autonomous air breathing living soul.

You certainly are adding a whole lot to this: The meaning of the text is pretty obvious, God gives life, the breath of life turned a lump of dead earth into a living, breathing, human person. There's nothing clinical about this.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Meaning the graves itself and all that it is them will be on fire also. The results (smoke) of them being burned up will be forever. No more death, and no more graves.

It seems to me that you're just making up whatever you want and spinning it as though it were objective truth.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Earburner]

You certainly are adding a whole lot to this: The meaning of the text is pretty obvious, God gives life, the breath of life turned a lump of dead earth into a living, breathing, human person. There's nothing clinical about this.
-CryptoLutheran

I never denied the creative ability of God before Adam breathed his first breath.
The issue is afterwards. How was Adam to become an autonomous living soul, now that the living cells of every part of his flesh was alive? Therefore because he himself was not yet conscious, nor autonomous, he was a lump of living human flesh without a thought in his head.
Only until Oxygen gets to the brain, does one have and maintain consciousness, aka become a living soul.

 

[Earburner]

It seems to me that you're just making up whatever you want and spinning it as though it were objective truth.

-CryptoLutheran

2 Peter 3[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 20[14] And death and hell [pit/grave] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you agree that those who dig a grave, are doing a "work" in the earth, that shall be burned up along with the earth?

 

[Timtofly]

You are not following through with what the Holy Spirit is saying in what I wrote. Here it is again:
"Zechariah 14[21] Yea, every pot [born again Christian, aka a new creature in His holiness] in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice [present themselves to God, in the belief of God's Sacrifice- Romans 12:1] "
Romans 12[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
> We as Born Again Christians sacrifice our lives through Christ to God, so that Christ can live through us for His purposes.

Not talking about symbolism. I am talking about the actual removal of sin and Christ the Prince sitting on a throne in a Temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Earburner]

Not talking about symbolism. I am talking about the actual removal of sin and Christ the Prince sitting on a throne in a Temple in Jerusalem.

I am talking the actual "overspreading of abominations", whereby Jesus' sacrifice of Himself, "made it desolate". All animal sacrifices were forced to stop, by allowing Satan to come in and destroy that city, along with it's temple, "even until the consummation". Daniel 9:27.

IOWs, animal sacrifices will never happen again, nor shall there be a literal temple built again for the Feast of Tabernacles.
All Born Again Christians are now that temporary tabernacle of God's indwelling, aka "the camp of the saints". We ourselves are the temple of the Living God, aka Heavenly Jerusalem. Revelation 20:9, 21:22.

 

[Timtofly]

I am talking the actual "overspreading of abominations", whereby Jesus' sacrifice of Himself, "made it desolate". All animal sacrifices were forced to stop, by allowing Satan to come in and destroy that city, along with it's temple, "even until the consummation". Daniel 9:27.

IOWs, animal sacrifices will never happen again, nor shall there be a literal temple built again for the Feast of Tabernacles.
All Born Again Christians are now that temporary tabernacle of God's indwelling, aka "the camp of the saints". We ourselves are the temple of the Living God, aka Heavenly Jerusalem. Revelation 20:9, 21:22.

God "turned off" the Temple at the Cross. Whatever humans do has nothing to do with God's plans.

Why do you emphasize a failed building for 40 years? What first century Jews thought they could hold onto, reminds me of some eschatological views that some hold dear. Many cannot give up these views, even when pointed out those views are wrong.

Daniel 9:27 may only happen in the future at the 7th Trumpet. It has nothing to do symbolically nor literally of any other point in history than the future 7th Trumpet. Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with Messiah being cut off, period.

Messiah was cut off and the Prince placed on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. The Vinyard was taken from the house of Jacob, and given to the NT church, where there was no difference between Jew and Gentiles. All of humanity were on equal footing, no one needed a human high priest to enter God's presence. It was always about God, not about an earthly temple being desecrated by God. That is a carnel minded twist putting God as doing evil.

Animal sacrifices never offered salvation. They were only a part of the OT economy that had a tabernacle as a central theme.

 

[Earburner]

God "turned off" the Temple at the Cross. Whatever humans do has nothing to do with God's plans.

Why do you emphasize a failed building for 40 years? What first century Jews thought they could hold onto, reminds me of some eschatological views that some hold dear. Many cannot give up these views, even when pointed out those views are wrong.

Daniel 9:27 may only happen in the future at the 7th Trumpet. It has nothing to do symbolically nor literally of any other point in history than the future 7th Trumpet. Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with Messiah being cut off, period.

Messiah was cut off and the Prince placed on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. The Vinyard was taken from the house of Jacob, and given to the NT church, where there was no difference between Jew and Gentiles. All of humanity were on equal footing, no one needed a human high priest to enter God's presence. It was always about God, not about an earthly temple being desecrated by God. That is a carnel minded twist putting God as doing evil.

Animal sacrifices never offered salvation. They were only a part of the OT economy that had a tabernacle as a central theme.

And that is the point. The animal sacrifices and all the Temple services were done, and shall remain done!
Yes, God did "turn the Temple off" through Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection. However, the Jews didn't believe that, and therefore kept the animal sacrifices going, over and against God's sacrifice of His own Son, aka "the Lamb of God".
They were "overspreading their abominations" against God their Savior, of which now was a slap in the face of God, especially after they committed the 7th abomination against God, by shedding His Son's innocent blood. Proverbs 6:16-19.

YES! Hear this well, it was the Jews themselves Proverbs 6:16-19 that committed "the abomination that maketh desolate". Do try to digest that, because there is nothing in the future coming, that will be of that magnitude!

Mark 13[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Since the Jews did keep on with the sacrificing of animals, having no respect for God's Sacrifice of His Son, they were now become desolate and void of God's presence with them. The KoG was taken from them, and given to Born Again Christians, the invisible church, who are mixed in among the "tares" of "church-ianity".
Since the Jews were now no longer under the protection and care of God, the result was satan saw the void and filled it with his destructive forces in 70 AD, destroying both the temple and the city.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Your confusion is caused by you using the term of a thousand years as literally being a thousand years, but only after the Return of Christ.
I percieve that you subconsciously filter every other doctrine through it. You understand it in that way only, and as a result, you can't turn to see it as being the undisclosed time of God's Age of Grace, since Pentecost.

Since Jesus did not, and still does not know the day of His return, but only the Father, then it suffices for Him to say a thousand years, suggesting that He won't be returning "quickly" as we think that He should. Therefore, the length of time for God's Age of Grace, is relative to when God the Father decides that there are no more people coming to Him through faith, to believe that He is. Hebrews 11:6,
Luke 18:8.
The MoB will be that defining moment. It will surely separate the goats from the sheep, discerning those who are his from those who "are none of his".
Edit: when the "MoB" is manifested and mandated, then will be the beginning of the prophesied 42 months.
Rev.11[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city [we who are of Heavenly Jerusalem] shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
At that time, each and every person will be in their own "hour of temptation", both the saved and unsaved, deciding in whom or what they trust in, for all their needs to be met.

As for Satan and his little window of opportunity , the church has been losing it's saltiness, and as a result, "the mystery of iniquity", which was being restrained, is now creeping inside the church. So now that the visible church itself is getting side tracked, by putting itself in yoke with the world's ways for "peace and safety" and "Saving the Planet", a falling away from faith in Christ is virtually inevitable.

As for a thousand years after Jesus returns, you are imposing your own will on it for understanding, and/or by a religious persuasion, that you have entertained for far too long. You have not obeyed His voice of "guidance" by His Holy Spirit ONLY. Zechariah 4:6 and John 16:13.

The Messianic Era as foretold by the hebrew OT prophets has not yet been established on earth!

 

[YeshuaFan]

And that is the point. The animal sacrifices and all the Temple services were done, and shall remain done!
Yes, God did "turn the Temple off" through Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection. However, the Jews didn't believe that, and therefore kept the animal sacrifices going, over and against God's sacrifice of His own Son, aka "the Lamb of God".
They were "overspreading their abominations" against God their Savior, of which now was a slap in the face of God, especially after they committed the 7th abomination against God, by shedding His Son's innocent blood. Proverbs 6:16-19.

YES! Hear this well, it was the Jews themselves Proverbs 6:16-19 that committed "the abomination that maketh desolate". Do try to digest that, because there is nothing in the future coming, that will be of that magnitude!

Mark 13[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Since the Jews did keep on with the sacrificing of animals, having no respect for God's Sacrifice of His Son, they were now become desolate and void of God's presence with them. The KoG was taken from them, and given to Born Again Christians, the invisible church, who are mixed in among the "tares" of "church-ianity".
Since the Jews were now no longer under the protection and care of God, the result was satan saw the void and filled it with his destructive forces in 70 AD, destroying both the temple and the city.

Except that God has promised to save out a remnant of Jews unto Himself, and will be protecting them in time of Jacobs Troubles, in the Great tribulation period, and they will call upon the Lord Jesus to get saved when they see Him returning!

 

[Earburner]

The Messianic Era as foretold by the hebrew OT prophets has not yet been established on earth!

Just before the Lord returns from Heaven, in all His Glory, and in flaming fire, there is that inevitable situation of temptation that is going take place in all the world, Revelation 13:11-18.
[16] And he [the Image] CAUSETH ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
> For all who do take the "MoB", they will be the "goats" aka the tares/unsaved. The only people who will NOT take the "mark", will be the sheep, aka the wheat/the saved.

If then the saved wheat shall be changed/resurrected at that time of Jesus' Glorious appearance, what will be the eternal situation for all the tares/unsaved who did take the "mark"?
Ans.
Revelation 14[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

> To be blunt, there will be no escapees, no one left behind, and no survivors.
See Romans 8:8-9.