Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[enoob57]

That's good.
"... some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
What about the rest? Three "some"s is not a SUM total. - lol

Could not Jesus have said some zero?

 

[Andrewn]

Could not Jesus have said some zero?

He did describe those who had zero in the first 3 groups.

 

[Clare73]

'Ourselves' is a subset of 'the whole of creation'. Hence the common groaning, for which your attempt at a distinction serves to amplify.

We are more than just natural physical creation, we are rational beings with spirits.

Paul distinguishes between those with spirits and those without.

The NT never treats humans as just natural creation, as Paul does not in Romans 8:22-23.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I think quite a few of us here would be doomed otherwise!

You're talking about unbelief, right? Because that is the only thing that condemns.

And you think that quite a few here are unbelievers?

 

[Clare73]

The so-called "unbelievers" are already saved before they are restored. The restoration is not their salvation. Nor is their belief. That scripture says that even those with no works are saved.

They have no works of saving faith at the time of conversion.
The Scripture says they are saved by their faith only, not by, but apart from, faith's works.
It is the faith which saves, not faith's works, which works always follow true faith.

 

[Hmm]

You're talking about unbelief, right? Because that is the only thing that condemns.

And you think that quite a few here are unbelievers?

No, I'm talking about people who believe in universal restoration - a heresy apparently.

 

[Clare73]

No, I'm talking about people who believe in universal restoration - a heresy apparently.

Yes, in orthodox Christianity, it is a heresy.

 

[Hmm]

Yes, in orthodox Christianity, it is a heresy.

It is in most Protestant churches, but not in Orthodoxy. This has already been discussed in this and other recent threads.

 

[Clare73]

It is in most Protestant churches, but not in Orthodoxy. This has already been discussed in this and other recent threads.

Well, based on its existence in the church, neither was Gnosticism.

 

[Hmm]

Well, based on its existence in the church, neither was Gnosticism.

The different is that every church tradition rejects Gnosticism. That's not the case with the idea universal restoration. Do we really have to rehash the arguments that you and I have gone over umpteenth times?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

When one holds to the inspiration of Scripture every word is important ... all is all

When one holds to an absolute God, all means all. When one is graced with a little honesty, all means all. It's the classic definition of 'fallen' to detract from the absolute. Throw them short-changing money-changers from the temple!

 

[Clare73]

It is in most Protestant churches, but not in Orthodoxy. This has already been discussed in this and other recent threads.

It is a heresy in western orthodoxy (Catholicism).
How about Anglicanism?

 

[Hmm]

It is a heresy in western orthodoxy (Catholicism).
How about Anglicanism?

The Catholic Catechism says that we should hope for the salvation of all people and that hell is empty i.e. that UR is true. And you're saying that they are hoping for a heresy to be true. What's with this picture?

Anyway, by Orthodoxy I was referring to the Eastern Orthodox church which regards the universalist Gregory of Nyssa as the "the father of fathers", and not a heretic at all. Good to know there's still some sanity left in the world

 

[Hmm]

How about Anglicanism?

In theory, I've no idea and even less interest. In practice, most people I know (Church of England) are hopeful universalists, a few are universalists and a few are deeply unhappy Infernalists. What's your experience of Christians that you know IRL?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The Catholic Catechism says that we should hope for the salvation of all people and that hell is empty i.e. that UR is true. And you're saying that they are hoping for a heresy to be true. What's with this picture?

Anyway, by Orthodoxy I was referring to the Eastern Orthodox church which regards the universalist Gregory of Nyssa as the "the father of fathers", and not a heretic at all. Good to know there's still some sanity left in the world

Still, I've run into many Orthodox who flatly dispute that Gregory Nissen was a universalist. The orthodox, catholics and protestants will even join forces to hate on you. Like when Pilate and Herod made friends over the mistreatment of Christ.

 

[Hmm]

Still, I've run into many Orthodox who flatly dispute that Gregory Nissen was a universalist. The orthodox, catholics and protestants will even join forces to hate on you. Like when Pilate and Herod made friends over the mistreatment of Christ.

Of course they do lol. But like most people, I'm sure he went through a number of phases. No doubt he went through an infernalist phase but then grew out of it, probably when he was 7 or 8 The fact is that he is universally acknowledged by all serious scholars as a universalist. Happy to provide links to free books of his if that's requested by any (platinum) member of Team Hell.

 

[Saint Steven]

Could not Jesus have said some zero?

No. This was a motivational speech. - lol
Who would do anything if they didn't have to?

I wonder what kind of seed gives a hundredfold. Wow.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

One guy ate the seed, and it became fertilizer for the seed that gave 100 fold.

 

[Saint Steven]

One guy ate the seed, and it became fertilizer for the seed that gave 100 fold.

You have a very fertilizer imagination. - lol

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You have a very fertilizer imagination. - lol

To quote an old prof, the metaphor was very pregnant.