Are NC Christians Lawless like Sabbath observers Claim?

[Bob S]

In previous OPs I and other new covenant Christians have been deemed as being lawless because we do not conform to their belief systems of having to keep ritual commands of the Sinai covenant. I submit the following as a rebuttal to their claim. Telling others they are lawless is a real slam unless it can be proven. Your comments will be greatly appreciated.

Paul wrote a lot about the Laws of the Sinai covenant and how they related to Jews and Gentiles. His writings have been a great help in how I am to relate to the laws of the covenant given to Israel. Are those who believe I have to observe the Sabbath and those who go even further and claim I have to observe the feast days of the Law correct in telling me I am lawless unless I do the same? Well, I am going to let Paul answer that for me. After all, he was Jesus ambassador to all mankind. His letters to the different churches are just as relevant to churches today as they were to the early Christian churches.
Gal 5:
Freedom in Christ Comments in parenthesis and bolded statements are mine.
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. (from the old covenant law) Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. ( Love is the command that Jesus gave for us to keep. Jn 15:10 If I do what Jesus commanded how can anyone refer that I am lawless?)

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. (free from the old covenant law) But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ( Isn't that telling me I am not subject to the ritual demands of the Sinai covenant laws when I obey Jesus command to love?) 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. (Doesn't that mean when some tells me I am lawless that they are trying to bite and devour me?)

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (old covenant law)

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

For those who put their faith in the teachings of the SDA church's believe I cannot be justified unless I keep the Sabbath that was given to Israel, how do you reconcile that with Paul's words to the Galatian church. How do you compare your prophet's claim that unless I keep the Sabbath of the yoke of slavery, as Paul described the Law, I will loose my eternal inheritance with what you just read from the words of Paul? Where is your ability to reconcile that I am lawless after reading Paul's words?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In previous OPs I and other new covenant Christians have been deemed as being lawless because we do not conform to their belief systems of having to keep ritual commands of the Sinai covenant. I submit the following as a rebuttal to their claim. Telling others they are lawless is a real slam unless it can be proven. Your comments will be greatly appreciated.

Paul wrote a lot about the Laws of the Sinai covenant and how they related to Jews and Gentiles. His writings have been a great help in how I am to relate to the laws of the covenant given to Israel. Are those who believe I have to observe the Sabbath and those who go even further and claim I have to observe the feast days of the Law correct in telling me I am lawless unless I do the same? Well, I am going to let Paul answer that for me. After all, he was Jesus ambassador to all mankind. His letters to the different churches are just as relevant to churches today as they were to the early Christian churches.
Gal 5:
Freedom in Christ Comments in parenthesis and bolded statements are mine.
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. (from the old covenant law) Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. ( Love is the command that Jesus gave for us to keep. Jn 15:10 If I do what Jesus commanded how can anyone refer that I am lawless?)

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. (free from the old covenant law) But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ( Isn't that telling me I am not subject to the ritual demands of the Sinai covenant laws when I obey Jesus command to love?) 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. (Doesn't that mean when some tells me I am lawless that they are trying to bite and devour me?)

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (old covenant law)

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

For those who put their faith in the teachings of the SDA church's believe I cannot be justified unless I keep the Sabbath that was given to Israel, how do you reconcile that with Paul's words to the Galatian church. How do you compare your prophet's claim that unless I keep the Sabbath of the yoke of slavery, as Paul described the Law, I will loose my eternal inheritance with what you just read from the words of Paul? Where is your ability to reconcile that I am lawless after reading Paul's words?

Maybe you can quote one time in Galatians where the Sabbath is mentioned, its not there. You will however find circumcision is quoted 15 times. Obviously Paul is referring to a different law and not the commandments of God.

Paul said :
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Seems like someone is trying to make a case that the scriptures simply does not say.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Maybe you can quote one time in Galatians where the Sabbath is mentioned, its not there. You will however find circumcision is quoted 15 times. Obviously Paul is referring to a different law and not the commandments of God.

Paul said :
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Seems like someone is trying to make a case that the scriptures simply does not say.

Colossians 2:8-19

 

[Bob S]

Maybe you can quote one time in Galatians where the Sabbath is mentioned, its not there.

Either are any other commands of the 10. The "Law" incorporates every law that God gave to Israel.

You will however find circumcision is quoted 15 times. Obviously Paul is referring to a different law and not the commandments of God.

Thanks for adding all of them SB for whatever that means.

Paul said :
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.

Seems like someone is trying to make a case that the scriptures simply do not say.

Seems like you have no understanding of Gal 5.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Colossians 2:8-19

Thats the Spiritual circumcision of the heart, we cut away the sins and become a new creature which is shown through baptism now. Walking in newness is without sin. Sin does not come from God, 1 John 3:8 so why would anyone want to make a case it's okay to be lawless. There are warnings for those who want to live in perpetual sin Hebrews 10:26-30 instead of walking with the Spirit of Christ in obedience to God. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

 

[Original Happy Camper]

4 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ( Isn't that telling me I am not subject to the ritual demands of the Sinai covenant laws when I obey Jesus command to love?)

Matthew 22:37-41 King James Version
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Can you tell me what laws are being refered to in verse 40 above?

Also
"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”"

Again Can you tell me what laws are being refered to in this statement?

"the ritual demands of Sinai" I assume you are refering to the Sanctuary laws as they are the only "ritual laws" given at MT Sinai and they were completely fullfilled by Jesus Christ

 

[YeshuaFan]

Maybe you can quote one time in Galatians where the Sabbath is mentioned, its not there. You will however find circumcision is quoted 15 times. Obviously Paul is referring to a different law and not the commandments of God.

Paul said :
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Seems like someone is trying to make a case that the scriptures simply does not say.

We now under the New Covenant of Grace, under Law of Christ, no longer bound to law of Moses!

 

[Bob S]

Thats the Spiritual circumcision of the heart, we cut away the sins and become a new creature which is shown through baptism now. Walking in newness is without sin. Sin does not come from God, 1 John 3:8 so why would anyone want to make a case it's okay to be lawless.

I would like to know who it is that made the case that it okay to be lawless. Are you walking in newness without sin? If so why would you need Jesus?

There are warnings for those who want to live in perpetual sin Hebrews 10:26-30 instead of with the Spirit of Christ in obedience to God. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

It is you that has deemed the Sabbath is a requirement for not living in sin. What is so ironic is the fact that you do not "keep" the Sabbath's requirements, so you would be the one living in perpetual sin. Since there is no new covenant requirement for observing the Sabbath, given only to the Israelites, how could all of us other sinners be breaking the Sabbath requirement? Gentiles nations were not given the Sabbath requirement At Sinai, so were they sinning because they didn't "keep" it?

 

[Torah Keeper]

We now under the New Covenant of Grace, under Law of Christ, no longer bound to law of Moses!

The Sabbath was made holy by Yahweh in Genesis 2. About 3,500 years before Moses.

And the Sabbath will be kept in the future per Isaiah 66.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We now under the New Covenant of Grace, under Law of Christ, no longer bound to law of Moses!

We are not bound to the ordinances of the law of Moses, Col 2:14 but are you saying we should not love thy God with all our hearts in the law of Moses? or we can worship other gods in the law of God?

Grace is not a license to break God's law

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[Bob S]

Matthew 22:37-41 King James Version
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Can you tell me what laws are being refered to in verse 40 above?

All the law would mean everything written in the Book of the Law. What is your point?

Also
"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”"

Again Can you tell me what laws are being refered to in this statement?

All the law would mean everything written in the Book of the Law. What is your point?

"the ritual demands of Sinai" I assume you are refering to the Sanctuary laws as they are the only "ritual laws" given at MT Sinai and they were completely fullfilled by Jesus Christ

My assumption is you do not understand rituals. And no, I was referring to the ritual Seventh-day Sabbath, feast day Sabbaths and new moon Sabbaths. I am being accused of being lawless for not observing Sabbath. Sabbath is the issue not the sanctuary.

 

[YeshuaFan]

The Sabbath was made holy by Yahweh in Genesis 2. About 3,500 years before Moses.

And the Sabbath will be kept in the future per Isaiah 66.

NONE ever kept it though until, the time of the Mosaic law, as was the sign of the Covenant between just God and national Israel!

 

[Bob S]

NONE ever kept it though until, the time of the Mosaic law, as was the sign of the Covenant between just God and national Israel!

There is no reason Biblically that the Sabbath was given the day after creation. All that is recorded is that God made the day after creation Holy and He rested. It has no reference to days beyond that one day. Anyone is adding to scripture when they try to tell us differently. All we are privy to is the Sabbath initiated after Israel crossed the Red Sea. We all know why those telling us we have to observe Sabbath try to make it sound like it started at creation. That would mean that Gentiles were celebrating Israel's freedom from slavery, Deut5, in Egypt hundreds of years before it happened. So much for that theory.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Matthew 22:37-41 King James Version
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Can you tell me what laws are being refered to in verse 40 above?

Also
"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”"

Again Can you tell me what laws are being refered to in this statement?

All of that was originally from the Torah in Leviticus and Deuteronomy...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There is no reason Biblically that the Sabbath was given the day after creation. All that is recorded is that God made the day after creation Holy and He rested. It has no reference to days beyond that one day. Anyone is adding to scripture when they try to tell us differently. All we are privy to is the Sabbath initiated after Israel crossed the Red Sea. We all know why those telling us we have to observe Sabbath try to make it sound like it started at creation. That would mean that Gentiles were celebrating Israel's freedom from slavery, Deut5, in Egypt hundreds of years before it happened. So much for that theory.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Well no. The Sabbath was on the 7th day of creation. So it would be a commemoration of that, of creation and the ending of God's creative work. Man (Adam) was created on the 6th day and the Sabbath was on the 7th day. The Sabbath was made for Adam (who was created first on the 6th day), not Adam for the Sabbath (made on the 7th day). Adam came first, then the Sabbath.

 

[Bob S]

Well no. The Sabbath was on the 7th day of creation. So it would be a commemoration of that, of creation and the ending of God's creative work. Man (Adam) was created on the 6th day and the Sabbath was on the 7th day. The Sabbath was made for Adam (who was created first on the 6th day), not Adam for the Sabbath (made on the 7th day). Adam came first, then the Sabbath.

Sorry friend, there were only six days of creation. God rested on the day after all creation. I hope this helps.

 

[DamianWarS]

Maybe you can quote one time in Galatians where the Sabbath is mentioned, its not there. You will however find circumcision is quoted 15 times. Obviously Paul is referring to a different law and not the commandments of God.

Paul said :
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Seems like someone is trying to make a case that the scriptures simply does not say.

Paul is clearly quoting a hot topic among the Galatians but he doesn't need to name every law to know the point he's making plus his remarks are irresponsible if he intended a list of exceptions. Circumcision itself predates Sabbath law established under Abraham as an everlasting covenant. Read Genesis 17 and see how important circumcision is. It's mirror language can be found with the Sabbath law yet because Paul named circumcision but not the Sabbath here we quickly dismiss it. We have to reconcile that if circumcision which is a signed everlasting covenant is no longer a physical requirement then why does another signed everlasting covenant like the Sabbath law still require physical observance? The logic doesn't work but yet circumcision can be applied to Sabbath law and the logic is a perfect match. This is a problem with the idea that Sabbath still needs physical observance and those who value Sabbath this way would rather ignore than answer.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well no. The Sabbath was on the 7th day of creation. So it would be a commemoration of that, of creation and the ending of God's creative work. Man (Adam) was created on the 6th day and the Sabbath was on the 7th day. The Sabbath was made for Adam (who was created first on the 6th day), not Adam for the Sabbath (made on the 7th day). Adam came first, then the Sabbath.

When does law come? Before or after the 7th day?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul is clearly quoting a hot topic among the Galatians but he doesn't need to name every law to know the point he's making plus his remarks are irresponsible if he intended a list of exceptions. Circumcision itself predates Sabbath law established under Abraham as an everlasting covenant. Read Genesis 17 and see how important circumcision is. It's mirror language can be found with the Sabbath law yet because Paul named circumcision but not the Sabbath here we quickly dismiss it. We have to reconcile that if circumcision which is a signed everlasting covenant is no longer a physical requirement then why does another signed everlasting covenant like the Sabbath law still require physical observance? The logic doesn't work but yet circumcision can be applied to Sabbath law and the logic is a perfect match. This is a problem with the idea that Sabbath still needs physical observance and those who value Sabbath this way would rather ignore than answer.

Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments; the Sabbath commandment is from the foundation of Creation before sin. Genesis 2:1-3

There is about 5 chapters on the change in law for circumcision, which is again not one of the Ten Commandments. The Pharisees were spying on Jesus to see if He would break the Sabbath commandment, the fact there is silence on any change to one of God's commandments in scriptures, especially the Holy day of the Lord thy God Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 is the biggest proof there is no change to the Sabbath commandment, it would have been an uproar in scriptures, not silence. Plus, we have these scriptures Matthew 24:20, Luke 23:56, Isaiah 66:23. The Sabbath is an eternal covenant and remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9-10 just like the other 9 commandments. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Colossians 2:8-19

Where does Colossians 2:8-19 say that Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection? Colossians 2:8-19 is about the shadow laws from the Mosaic book (not stone) of the covenant *Exodus 24:7, circumcision, baptism, laws written in ordinances that were against us being nailed to the cross, the meat and drink offerings, the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the feast days that were shadows of things to come pointing to "the body of Christ [17] not Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken. Are you aware that there were many different kinds of sabbaths under the old covenant that are not the same as Gods' 4th commandment? I like how you quoted Colossians 2:8-19 though as context matters. Are you interested in seeing why Colossians 2:16 is not talking about God's 4th commandment? When most people are asked this they are not interested in seeing and hearing what the scriptures teach and happy to continue breaking it sadly. What about you?

Take Care.