Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Timtofly]

Stop avoiding the obvious: is it sinful for these billions of Millennial inhabitants to reject Christ and righteousness and follow Satan in your estimation?

Only if it was sinful for Eve to eat? Eve was not commanded by God. Adam was the one who disobeyed. Was Adam a sinner before he disobeyed God?

I would say no. I would say listening to Satan is not being a sinner.

What makes one a sinner. Doing something or being something?

Is being deceived the same thing as being a sinner, or does God give us a sin nature, ie a corruptible body because that was the state of Adam's punishment visited on all his offspring?

You cannot bring a total end to Adam's flesh and blood, and then just declare it magically appears 1000 years later. You have to state what disobedience happened to turn them into sinners. Is being deceived breaking some command? Is walking from point A to point B breaking some command? Is it against the law to assemble in a crowd over 100?

You yourself have to prove they are in a state of sin, if you are going to call them sinners and wicked to the point of hyperbole. They are your defined group, not mine.

All I have is that a huge amount of people from the corners of the earth, the farthest away from the camp of the saints. They listen to Satan who deceives them to march across the earth from all over towards this central city. That is all we are told. At what point in this march were they instantaneously turned into wicked sinners?

You claim they always were sinners, even while claiming God totally destroyed all sinners. So how do you justify going from no sinners to they all were sinners anyway, just because "you say so"?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Only if it was sinful for Eve to eat? Eve was not commanded by God. Adam was the one who disobeyed. Was Adam a sinner before he disobeyed God?

I would say no. I would say listening to Satan is not being a sinner.

What makes one a sinner. Doing something or being something? ...

You cannot bring a total end to Adam's flesh and blood, and then just declare it magically appears 1000 years later. You have to state what disobedience happened to turn them into sinners. Is being deceived breaking some command? Is walking from point A to point B breaking some command? Is it against the law to assemble in a crowd over 100?

You yourself have to prove they are in a state of sin, if you are going to call them sinners and wicked to the point of hyperbole. They are your defined group, not mine.

All I have is that a huge amount of people from the corners of the earth, the farthest away from the camp of the saints. They listen to Satan who deceives them to march across the earth from all over towards this central city. That is all we are told. At what point in this march were they instantaneously turned into wicked sinners?

You claim they always were sinners, even while claiming God totally destroyed all sinners. So how do you justify going from no sinners to they all were sinners anyway, just because "you say so"?

Why can you not answer simple questions? Because they expose your position. I did not say "listening to Satan is ... being a sinner."

I asked: is it sinful for these billions of Millennial inhabitants to reject Christ and righteousness and follow Satan in your estimation? After all they are deceived by the devil. Why will you not answer this?

Is being deceived the same thing as being a sinner, or does God give us a sin nature, ie a corruptible body because that was the state of Adam's punishment visited on all his offspring?

What? Of course they are sinners if they are deceived by the devil. What else are they? Sinless followers of Satan? I don't think so

Sinners sinning are not sinners? Since Adam and Eve sinned, all men are born in sin until glorification. When given immortality they cannot sin. After death, the judgment, then the eternal reward. There are no half-glorified half-mortal life after death as you suggest.

Premil does not add up!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why can you not answer simple questions? Because they expose your position. I did not say "listening to Satan is ... being a sinner."

I asked: is it sinful for these billions of Millennial inhabitants to reject Christ and righteousness and follow Satan in your estimation? After all they are deceived by the devil. Why will you not answer this?

Good luck ever getting an answer from him on this. We've asked him that question or similar questions many times with no answer. I feel certain that he's the only person in the world with this particular belief that the ones who go up against "the camp of the saints" are not sinners. It doesn't get any more ludicrous than that. It's such a ridiculous claim that it's not even worth debating against, in my opinion. Who would ever agree with him on this? I can't imagine anyone would.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Good luck ever getting an answer from him on this. We've asked him that question or similar questions many times with no answer. I feel certain that he's the only person in the world with this particular belief that the ones who go up against "the camp of the saints" are not sinners. It doesn't get any more ludicrous than that. It's such a ridiculous claim that it's not even worth debating against, in my opinion. Who would ever agree with him on this? I can't imagine anyone would.

I totally agree. This doesn’t make sense. I suspect he knows that.

 

[Timtofly]

Why can you not answer simple questions? Because they expose your position. I did not say "listening to Satan is ... being a sinner."

I asked: is it sinful for these billions of Millennial inhabitants to reject Christ and righteousness and follow Satan in your estimation? After all they are deceived by the devil. Why will you not answer this?

What? Of course they are sinners if they are deceived by the devil. What else are they? Sinless followers of Satan? I don't think so

Sinners sinning are not sinners? Since Adam and Eve sinned, all men are born in sin until glorification. When given immortality they cannot sin. After death, the judgment, then the eternal reward. There are no half-glorified half-mortal life after death as you suggest.

Premil does not add up!

Being deceived is not a requirement to be a sinner. Disobedience to God makes one a sinner.

You have yet to state what they did to disobey God.

Quote one verse that states being deceived let sin into the world and made people sinners.

You are still equating deception with every other item you can imagine. We could add walking on the moon as indicative of being deceived by Satan as well, but what is the point of just making up a list of phenomenon that you add to a simple act of just being deceived.

Notice Revelation 20:4? Where does it state those ruling with Christ were born into Adam's flesh and blood in order to be alive? They were beheaded. You cannot get much more physically dead than that. Are you claiming these poor beheaded souls, just get to come back as Adam's wicked sinful flesh and blood? You really don't make any sense trying to come up with some imaginative way to make this 1000 years full of wicked sinners.

I already stated these people are not sinners. They have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is what a first resurrection entails. I am pretty sure you expect to have a permanent incorruptible physical body, no?

Do you expect a certain type of resurrection? Perhaps you would at least agree they get the same physical resurrection as you will get? The same physical resurrection Jesus had when he ate with the disciples and Thomas touched his hands and feet. Why would you condemn any to a resurrection you yourself would not expect?

Yes, after 1000 years even perfect people can listen to Satan. Not any different than Eve being deceived. But it was Eve who was deceived. Adam deliberately disobeyed God and was not deceived. So point out these people's deliberate act of disobedience. All we are told is they were deceived. God has the right to consume by fire deceived people, even without them being disobedient. God did not let Eve get away with being deceived, and let her stay in the Garden without Adam. There was no sin until Adam himself disobeyed God. Do you see this as a Romeo and Juliet scenario? Do you think Eve died, and that is why Adam ate, to join her?

I do not think anything happened when Eve ate. The command was not given to her. She did not even get any wisdom as promised. I do not think these people at the end, changed just because they marched on the camp of the saints. They had no clue about the end of their march. They were deceived thinking a battle perhaps. How would they even know what a battle was? If you are deceived what knowledge do you think you would need to make your deception clear to you? Being deceived implies you are not thinking clearly at all. How does that convert to being deliberate willful sinners? Still waiting for a deliberate act of disobedience to prove your point. I do not see anything to make them wicked sinners. Being deceived is not grounds enough to make your point.

 

[Timtofly]

Good luck ever getting an answer from him on this. We've asked him that question or similar questions many times with no answer. I feel certain that he's the only person in the world with this particular belief that the ones who go up against "the camp of the saints" are not sinners. It doesn't get any more ludicrous than that. It's such a ridiculous claim that it's not even worth debating against, in my opinion. Who would ever agree with him on this? I can't imagine anyone would.

What is ridiculous is that you have yet to state how these people were even born, and how they disobeyed God's direct command.

You claim no one can procreate in the Millennium. You claim all Adam's flesh and blood were killed before the Millennium even started. All you really do is call this a recap of the here and now, and then ridicule what others point out as being the actual words in Revelation 20.

You ridicule those who do not accept the complete and utter destruction of Adam's flesh and blood. Then when a premil agrees with you and states none of Adam's flesh and blood live in the Millennium, you refute your own point, none of Adam's flesh survives.

So why point out all humanity is killed? You yourself must not allow this Millennium for the very reason that God cannot allow a resurrection even though there is just that in verse 4. Did Jesus not show that one can have a normal resurrected physical body without being glorified? Are you going to assert they all had to endure a glorified body of Jesus, one that shined like a bright blinding light, that blinded Paul when he saw it? Still not sure why you all cannot distinguish between a resurrected physical body and one's spirit also wrapped around the body like a bright light. God is not obligated to return all humanity to the full image of being a son of God. In fact some claim that will not happen until the NHNE.

I fail to see why denying a future reign of Christ solves this dilemma of Satan's deception.

You do realize that for thousands of years souls had to wait in Abraham's bosom part of sheol itself until the Cross to enjoy a physical resurrection. Yet you claim they are still waiting.

Now in Paradise they have waited in physical bodies for 1900+ years for the glorification, the joining of the spirit like a robe of white. Yet you deny that. You deny that the church as glorified have to wait in Paradise for another 1000 years. You lack the patience of Job who has been waiting about as long as Noah. You cannot even wait another 1,000 years, when they have been waiting for thousands of years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Being deceived is not a requirement to be a sinner. Disobedience to God makes one a sinner.

You have yet to state what they did to disobey God.

Are you being serious or are you just being argumentative?

Is rejecting Christ not disobeying God in your eyes? Is conspiring with Satan not disobeying God in your eyes? Is swallowing the lie of the devil and submitting to his rebellious agenda not disobeying God in your eyes? Is resisting Christ and the people of God not disobeying God in your eyes?

 

[DavidPT]

Are you being serious or are you just being argumentative?

Is rejecting Christ not disobeying God in your eyes? Is conspiring with Satan not disobeying God in your eyes? Is swallowing the lie of the devil and submitting to his rebellious agenda not disobeying God in your eyes? Is resisting Christ and the people of God not disobeying God in your eyes?

While those are legit questions for Premils, per Amil though, the billions that satan deceives after the thousand years are already doing most of those things during the thousand years to begin with. They are obviously rejecting Christ during the thousand years if they are coming against the camp of the saints after the thousand years. IOW, per Amil not much difference between the thousand years and satan's little season, at least in regards to the billions satan deceives after the thousand years. And no, that is not misrepresenting Amil by me making that observation.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you being serious or are you just being argumentative?

Is rejecting Christ not disobeying God in your eyes? Is conspiring with Satan not disobeying God in your eyes? Is swallowing the lie of the devil and submitting to his rebellious agenda not disobeying God in your eyes? Is resisting Christ and the people of God not disobeying God in your eyes?

Still no Scripture to back up your assertions. The Children of Israel about to cross the Jordan complained that the giants were too much. God made them wait in the desert 40 more years until they all died. Was complaining a natural outcome of their sin nature, or did they brake a commandment?

Not sure why you put every natural inclination you as a fallen descendant of Adam, onto a future time, who were not natural sinners descendant from Adam? If you would at least prove that God gives those who have been physically dead, I mean their head severed from their body, not just a near death or resuscitation to life, but a brand new permanent body that is incorruptible instead of just back into Adam's flesh and blood, provide such Scripture.

Otherwise you refute the physical resurrection of Christ Himself. Paul explained what a physical resurrection is. Why do you deny those in Revelation 20:4 such a resurrection?

All those excuses you give apply to Adam's flesh and blood. But that is brought to a climactic and drastic end, as you yourself claim at the Second Coming. This future millennium is not your typical 6000 years of Adam's wicked flesh living on earth. That has been brought to a definite and finite end. New born flesh after the 7th Trumpet and end of those 70 weeks conclude no more sin, death by sin, nor a sin nature can carry over into the Millennium.

In order for people to populate the earth, there is a physical resurrection. Especially those just beheaded for avoiding the mark. Their names still found in the Lamb's book of life. They have every right to live on earth and procreate as Noah did when he stepped off the ark of safety. Their ark of safety was being beheaded. Without knowing the outcome of a resurrection other than the Word of God. Just like you put faith in God's Word and accepted the gift of salvation, you expect God to stand by that promise. So will those beheaded stand by God's Word in Revelation 20:4.

Except you have a totally different interpretation of that verse than those who are actually beheaded.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

While those are legit questions for Premils,

That's not even true. They're not legit questions for anyone except Timtofly since he is the only one who would try to say that someone opposing "the camp of the saints" is not sinning by doing so.

per Amil though, the billions that satan deceives after the thousand years are already doing most of those things during the thousand years to begin with. They are obviously rejecting Christ during the thousand years if they are coming against the camp of the saints after the thousand years. IOW, per Amil not much difference between the thousand years and satan's little season, at least in regards to the billions satan deceives after the thousand years. And no, that is not misrepresenting Amil by me making that observation.

What you're saying has nothing to do with what was being debated. You always seem to be trying to change the subject for some reason. Timtofly is trying to say that the ones who come against "the camp of the saints" are not sinners. And that claim is being challenged. Don't you agree that it's a ridiculous claim that they are not sinning by opposing God's people? This isn't even an Amil vs. Premil issue. It's an issue of whether those people would be sinning by doing that, which they obviously would be. It's not even debatable in my mind.

As for what you said, you are misrepresenting Amil. Again. Amils do not at all claim that there isn't much difference between the thousand years and Satan's little season. We've said otherwise many, many times. Don't try to speak for us, David. We know what we believe, so we don't need you trying to tell us what we believe.

 

[sovereigngrace]

While those are legit questions for Premils, per Amil though, the billions that satan deceives after the thousand years are already doing most of those things during the thousand years to begin with. They are obviously rejecting Christ during the thousand years if they are coming against the camp of the saints after the thousand years. IOW, per Amil not much difference between the thousand years and satan's little season, at least in regards to the billions satan deceives after the thousand years. And no, that is not misrepresenting Amil by me making that observation.

Another misrepresentation from you. When are you going to take ownership for your ongoing campaign of misrepresenting? We take this as a glaring admission that you have nothing on the real Amil position. Amils believe (as you know) that this is confirming, what the rest of the OT and NT confirm, that the Gentiles are no longer in darkness. You have no answer for this and it exposes your position.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Still no Scripture to back up your assertions. The Children of Israel about to cross the Jordan complained that the giants were too much. God made them wait in the desert 40 more years until they all died. Was complaining a natural outcome of their sin nature, or did they brake a commandment?

Not sure why you put every natural inclination you as a fallen descendant of Adam, onto a future time, who were not natural sinners descendant from Adam? If you would at least prove that God gives those who have been physically dead, I mean their head severed from their body, not just a near death or resuscitation to life, but a brand new permanent body that is incorruptible instead of just back into Adam's flesh and blood, provide such Scripture.

Otherwise you refute the physical resurrection of Christ Himself. Paul explained what a physical resurrection is. Why do you deny those in Revelation 20:4 such a resurrection?

All those excuses you give apply to Adam's flesh and blood. But that is brought to a climactic and drastic end, as you yourself claim at the Second Coming. This future millennium is not your typical 6000 years of Adam's wicked flesh living on earth. That has been brought to a definite and finite end. New born flesh after the 7th Trumpet and end of those 70 weeks conclude no more sin, death by sin, nor a sin nature can carry over into the Millennium.

In order for people to populate the earth, there is a physical resurrection. Especially those just beheaded for avoiding the mark. Their names still found in the Lamb's book of life. They have every right to live on earth and procreate as Noah did when he stepped off the ark of safety. Their ark of safety was being beheaded. Without knowing the outcome of a resurrection other than the Word of God. Just like you put faith in God's Word and accepted the gift of salvation, you expect God to stand by that promise. So will those beheaded stand by God's Word in Revelation 20:4.

Except you have a totally different interpretation of that verse than those who are actually beheaded.

You have to avoid these simple questions as they expose your argument.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:9-10 "..even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

"And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth."

The reigning saints evidently continue to exist in the presence of God. Unbelievers on the other hand are separated from God during this current age. The wicked are cut off from God.

Moreover, verse 4 depicts a picture of the righteous dead currently reigning with Christ in the heavenly abode in their disembodied state, whereas the wicked (who are identified as “the rest”) are simply described as “lived not.”

Everything you say in your OP I agree with, because it's true, except for the thing that I've highlighted in red which you do not explain, and please forgive me for being technical, but it remains an issue for me:

The two things you've left out of your OP are:-

1. What is it that constitutes the beheading of those who are already beheaded?; and

2. What is it that constitutes the mark of the beast or the number of his name that those who during their lives have received on their foreheads?

Without a valid and biblical theology on the above two questions, I remain confused and agnosmillennialist (since everything else you say in your OP is true), but because of the above two unanswered questions, I remain applying the period during which the false prophet is causing people to either receive the mark of the beast or be killed, to the final 42 months of this Age which precede the Lord's return, which if true, also to my own human intellect means that this cannot precede the commencement of the thousand years.

Please note: My mind is open about this question, not closed. But I would like to hear your reply and the replies of other Amillennialists only on the above two questions I've listed (since I agree with the rest of your OP), because it may help my understanding.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:9-10 "..even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

"And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth."

Everything you say in your OP I agree with, because it's true, except for the thing that I've highlighted in red which you do not explain, and please forgive me for being technical, but it remains an issue for me:

The two things you've left out of your OP are:-

1. What is it that constitutes the beheading of those who are already beheaded?; and

2. What is it that constitutes the mark of the beast or the number of his name that those who during their lives have received on their foreheads?

Without a valid and biblical theology on the above two questions, I remain confused and agnosmillennialist (since everything else you say in your OP is true), but because of the above two unanswered questions, I remain applying the period during which the false prophet is causing people to either receive the mark of the beast or be killed, to the final 42 months of this Age which precede the Lord's return, which if true, also to my own human intellect means that this cannot precede the commencement of the thousand years.

Please note: My mind is open about this question, not closed. But I would like to hear your reply and the replies of other Amillennialists only on the above two questions I've listed (since I agree with the rest of your OP), because it may help my understanding.

These are good questions. I want to take time to address them. I am traveling today and will not be able to give them the justice they deserve.

 

[DavidPT]

Another misrepresention from you. When are you going to take ownership for your ongoing campaign of misrepresenting? We take this as a glaring admission that you have nothing on the real Amil position. Amils believe (as you know) that this is confirming, what the rest of the OT and NT confirm, that the Gentiles are no longer in darkness. You have no answer for this and it exposes your position.

Your reading comprehension at times simply annoys me, because one of my pet peeves is being falsely accused of something. If anyone is misrepresenting anyone, it is some of you all misreprenting me by claiming I'm saying things I'm not. I never once said Amils claim that there is little difference between the thousand years and satan's little season. I'm the one claiming that if Amil is supposed to be true, and that I said, at least in regards to the billions satan deceives after the thousand years. You all, meaning Amils like yourself, seem to do that with some of the Revelation 20 as well, misrepresenting what it is saying by having it meaning something it isn't, IOW twisting it in order to not contradict Amil. But that's not how it's supposed to work.

An example---Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. This clearly proves that the beast ascends out of the pit, not after the thousand years, but prior to it instead. Yet, you all insist that the beast doesn't ascend out of the pit until after the thousand years, thus misrepresenting what Revelation 20:4 records, as if those saints can somehow by martyred for refusing to worsip the beast, and his image, before the beast even ascends out of the pit first, and a 2nd one out of the earth. IOW, in regards to these particular martyrs, let's just ignore Revelation 13 since none of that could possibly be involving why they are martyred to begin with.

Revelation 20:4 and those particular martyrs which had not worshiped the beast, is key to determining where the thousand years fit, since their martyrdom is a result of the 42 month reign of the beast once it ascends out of the pit.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your reading comprehension at times simply annoys me, because one of my pet peeves is being falsely accused of something. If anyone is misrepresenting anyone, it is some of you all misreprenting me by claiming I'm saying things I'm not. I never once said Amils claim that there is little difference between the thousand years and satan's little season. I'm the one claiming that if Amil is supposed to be true, and that I said, at least in regards to the billions satan deceives after the thousand years. You all, meaning Amils like yourself, seem to do that with some of the Revelation 20 as well, misrepresenting what it is saying by having it meaning something it isn't, IOW twisting it in order to not contradict Amil. But that's not how it's supposed to work.

An example---Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. This clearly proves that the beast ascends out of the pit, not after the thousand years, but prior to it instead. Yet, you all insist that the beast doesn't ascend out of the pit until after the thousand years, thus misrepresenting what Revelation 20:4 records, as if those saints can somehow by martyred for refusing to worsip the beast, and his image, before the beast even ascends out of the pit first, and a 2nd one out of the earth. IOW, in regards to these particular martyrs, let's just ignore Revelation 13 since none of that could possibly be involving why they are martyred to begin with.

Revelation 20:4 and those particular martyrs which had not worshiped the beast, is key to determining where the thousand years fit, since their martyrdom is a result of the 42 month reign of the beast once it ascends out of the pit.

You asked for evidence and we presented it. And as usual you avoided addressing it. That is your form. That does not create respect. That is not right. Address the evidence of your deliberate misrepresentations and stop avoiding the obvious. Until you do I will continue to highlight.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:9-10 "..even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

"And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth."

Everything you say in your OP I agree with, because it's true, except for the thing that I've highlighted in red which you do not explain, and please forgive me for being technical, but it remains an issue for me:

The two things you've left out of your OP are:-

1. What is it that constitutes the beheading of those who are already beheaded?; and

2. What is it that constitutes the mark of the beast or the number of his name that those who during their lives have received on their foreheads?

Without a valid and biblical theology on the above two questions, I remain confused and agnosmillennialist (since everything else you say in your OP is true), but because of the above two unanswered questions, I remain applying the period during which the false prophet is causing people to either receive the mark of the beast or be killed, to the final 42 months of this Age which precede the Lord's return, which if true, also to my own human intellect means that this cannot precede the commencement of the thousand years.

Please note: My mind is open about this question, not closed. But I would like to hear your reply and the replies of other Amillennialists only on the above two questions I've listed (since I agree with the rest of your OP), because it may help my understanding.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's coming.

Secondly, the 42 months are simply an unrestrained intensification of what has been ongoing through the centuries. The beast has been wreaking havoc under different guises for long before the First Advent.

Thirdly, the function of the beast corresponds with the ongoing evil of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. The fate of both are closely tied together. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Fourthly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The millennium does not follow Rev 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Rev 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fifthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church under the Roman Empire, in the Middle ages under the persecution of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months is wrong.

Sixthly, the end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrown. So, the 42-month reign of the beast at the end and Satan's little season correlate. They are the same event.

I believe the 3 ½ years in Revelation 12:5-6 & 12:13-14 refers to a period just after the cross. Revelation 12:5-6 declares: “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

I believe the 3 ½ years in Revelation 12:13-14 refers to a period of persecution just after the cross: “And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”

I believe the 3 ½ years in Revelation 11:1-3 refers to a period of persecution just before the second coming: “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I believe the 3 ½ years in Revelation 13:4-5 refers to a period of persecution just before the second coming: “And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

I believe the hour in Revelation 17:11-12 refers to a period of persecution just before the second coming: “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”

I believe the little season in Revelation 6:11 refers to a period of persecution just before the second coming: “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

I believe the little season in Revelation 20:3 refers to a period of persecution just before the second coming: “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The 42 months correlates with Satan's little season.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:9-10 "..even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

"And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth."

Everything you say in your OP I agree with, because it's true, except for the thing that I've highlighted in red which you do not explain, and please forgive me for being technical, but it remains an issue for me:

The two things you've left out of your OP are:-

1. What is it that constitutes the beheading of those who are already beheaded?; and

2. What is it that constitutes the mark of the beast or the number of his name that those who during their lives have received on their foreheads?

Without a valid and biblical theology on the above two questions, I remain confused and agnosmillennialist (since everything else you say in your OP is true), but because of the above two unanswered questions, I remain applying the period during which the false prophet is causing people to either receive the mark of the beast or be killed, to the final 42 months of this Age which precede the Lord's return, which if true, also to my own human intellect means that this cannot precede the commencement of the thousand years.

Please note: My mind is open about this question, not closed. But I would like to hear your reply and the replies of other Amillennialists only on the above two questions I've listed (since I agree with the rest of your OP), because it may help my understanding.

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that Wicked one, have been about for 2,000 yrs+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the Beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Also, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 yrs+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 declares: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Second Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

I put it to you we are looking at a spirit – a spirit that is the direct antithesis of the Holy Spirit.

The thousand years/Satan's little season refers to the here-and-now - the last days period. The persecution and martyrdom have been ongoing since Stephen. Satan, the beast and their kingdom has been resisting the Church throughout the intra-Advent period (Rev 20). Check Church history! We cannot ignore the persecution of the early Church, the genocide of millions of believers in the Middle Ages by the Roman church, and the ongoing persecution of the true Church globally today.

 

[Zao is life]

I read up until this point, and then you lost me, because the accusation was false:

To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

I said my mind was open, so I was asking an honest question.

But thanks for your reply anyway.

I don't know if you maybe copied and pasted your reply from your previous posts which you have stored. If so, maybe it would be a good idea to remove all ad hominem attacks from your storehouse of posts.

 

[Zao is life]

OK so I continued to read after my initial sense of indignation at your ad hominem attack, and got to this part:

I believe the little season in Revelation 20:3 refers to a period of persecution just before the second coming: “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”
The 42 months correlates with Satan's little season.

Which makes sense, if the thousand years mentioned in the same passage is not a literal thousand years but symbolizes the inter-advent period.

.. but if so, that would be the only place where the binding of Satan at the beginning of the inter-advent period is mentioned. It's not mentioned or implied anywhere else (not even in 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7).

Not only do 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7 NOT imply anything with regard to the binding of either Satan or angels at the time of the ascension of Christ, but the references to angels who are bound (found in the above verses) are not found anywhere else in biblical scripture:

An account of the binding of these angels that are mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7 is found in the book of Enoch, where it is mentioned as having taken place during the days of Noah, and the surrounding context of the text of both Peter's and Jude's statements in the above passages, is itself a time which was already antiquity to the apostles' day, where Peter also mentions the days of Noah (among other ancient epochs in the pre-Christian era), and Jude mentions Sodom and Gomorrah (clearly speaking about events that took place in a time which was already antiquity in the apostles' day).

Therefore though Satan was indeed utterly defeated, and his dominion over the earth regained for man by Christ, 2 Peter 2:4-8 and Jude 1:5-7 cannot legitimately be used as biblical support for the notion that Satan was "bound" at the time of the ascension of Christ (i.e the time when the devil had been cast out of heaven and down to the earth).

1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 warn Christians of the activity of Satan in the world.

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and Ephesians 2:2 tell us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

It spans the entire Age.

So though many Christians believe that Satan was "bound" at the time Jesus ascended into heaven (in the sense of his being severely limited in what he may achieve), yet outside of Revelation chapter 20 there are zero verses speaking of the binding of Satan or even implying this to be the case, let alone verses that explicitly state it, hence leaving the notion that Satan was "bound" at the time of Calvary with a total lack of the necessary scriptural evidence that is legitimately demanded of any notion in need of biblical support.

.. but this does not mean that Satan was not bound, either. It's just one of those questions which Revelation 20 is notorious for causing a lot of debate about.

THE THOUSAND YEARS
​

I now realize that since God did not choose to inform the saints of how long it would be before Christ returns (Acts 1:7-8), then if Revelation 20 is talking about the inter-advent period, it would have to be represented symbolically somehow, and IF in His Revelation Christ chose to use a thousand years to symbolize 2,000 or more years, then that's how He chose to symbolize it, and the Greek could only use one word for "a thousand", so that's the word used. The fact that it literally means a thousand everywhere else it's found in the New Testament does not of necessity mean that it means a literal thousand years in Revelation 20, which as you point out, is a highly symbolic book.

And it's also true, as you point out, that many saints have been martyred, beginning with Stephen, then with Paul's persecution of the earliest Christians, then with Nero's persecution .. and so it goes on, even today in Africa, the Middle East, China and other parts of the globe.