A few questions for Protestants

[Fidelibus]

I want a Protestant to out-Bible me. Catholics read Bibles that are not 100% the infallible Word of God and put what fallible men say above the Bible in many things about their faith.

Please go to 1 Tim. 3:15, copy/paste and post it for me please, so we can see if the word "pillar" is Biblical or not.

By all means, please use your Protestant bible.

p.s.(see your post # 35)

Thank you

 

[topher694]

Thank you for your answer. Could you please elaborate?

By definition, any institution of man is fallible, especially in the entirety of truth, morals and faith.

So you are agreeing..... under this theological system, you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

No, you asked if we agreed, I said: no, I don't agree. We can have absolute assurance. That can only come from God, not man, and it comes in part, step by step, faith to faith, glory to glory, not all at once.

Okay, so if you do not believe for a Christian, the Bible "is not" the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth, what do you believe is? According to the Bible?

The Spirit of Truth.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello Carl, but with all respect, I don't think you did.

My simple question seems to be either ignored or mis-understood. All I ask is.... in Scripture, and for a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?



Could you please show the Scripture passage that say's this?




Okay, so if the bible is not the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth, what does Scripture say that is?

Thank you

The Living Word of God that proceeds from His Mouth via the Holy Spirit.

Heb 4:

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Not at all. The Bible is the truth revealed by God to mankind. It needs nothing to uphold or support it, even as God needs nothing

So if all the bibles in the world disappear the Christian faith does too?
What if Christianity disappears but bibles are still around?
Which does the faith in Christ depend?

 

[Fidelibus]

It is, assuredly, not a religious bureaucracy headquartered in Rome, which is the end goal of your question.

Well, first off my friend, for you to know the alleged "end goal" of my question would require you to know the workings and thoughts of my mind. With that being said, I am 100% sure you are not omnipotent.

Secondly, if you are assured it is not some "religious bureaucracy", what is it that you believe Scripture says is the pillar and ground of the truth?

 

[Fidelibus]

I reiterate, for your benefit, that anyone who thinks that Truth requires support or a pillar, especially in the form of a certain religious bureaucracy, is oddly deluded.

So you are saying St. Paul was "oddly deluded" when he penned 1 Timothy 3:15?
Hmm, well, all I will say to that 7b's is, for "your benefit" and after you read said passage, you may want to re-think your position.

 

[chad kincham]

Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

Yet, Jesus says, "Know the truth and the truth will set make you free." (John 8:32)

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!

Scripture says it has the final say on doctrines:

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And says it’s our responsibility to study the scriptures for ourselves, and learn the truth:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew YOURSELF approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And the Beareans are commended and called honorable, for not just taking the apostle Paul’s word for it, but searched the scriptures to see if he was right:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

And Jesus affirmed all the above:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

What’s the ultimate source of truth for Protestants?

Scripture.

Maranatha

 

[Fidelibus]

The Living Word of God that proceeds from His Mouth via the Holy Spirit.

Heb 4:

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Carl, in all these passages you posted, not one of them tells us what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth. I promise you that there is a passage that tells us what is the is the pillar and ground of the truth, and this passage I speak of does not say it is the bible. Would you like me to post for you where in the Bible it tells us what is?

 

[Fidelibus]

Scripture says it has the final say on doctrines:

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And says it’s our responsibility to study the scriptures for ourselves, and learn the truth:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew YOURSELF approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And the Beareans are commended and called honorable, for not just taking the apostle Paul’s word for it, but searched the scriptures to see if he was right:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

And Jesus affirmed all the above:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

What’s the ultimate source of truth for Protestants?

Scripture.

Maranatha

Sorry, but none of the passages you posted tells us, for a Christian, what the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth is. I promise there is a passage that does, and this passage does "not" say it is Scripture. If you are unaware of this passage, I would be more than happy to show you. I will though give you a hint, it was written by St. Paul.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl, in all these passages you posted, not one of them tells us what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth. I promise you that there is a passage that tells us what is the is the pillar and ground of the truth, and this passage I speak of does not say it is the bible. Would you like me to post for you where in the Bible it tells us what is?

I'm sure you would love to...

 

[chad kincham]

Sorry, but none of the passages you posted tells us, for a Christian, what the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth is. I promise there is a passage that does, and this passage does "not" say it is Scripture. If you are unaware of this passage, I would be more than happy to show you. I will though give you a hint, it was written by St. Paul.

Nowhere in scripture is the church defined as being the Roman Catholic Church, nor is a hierarchal structure ever depicted with a pope, cardinal, and bishops.

Nor was the congregation founded or built on Peter, nor did Peter have any primacy, and the first bishop of Rome was Linus, and Peter was never part of the RCC at any time.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Nowhere in scripture is the church defined as being the Roman Catholic Church, nor is a hierarchal structure ever depicted with a pope, cardinal, and bishops.

None was the congregation founded or built on Peter, no.

Or rules that priests are required to remain single and celibate.

Every single Catholic tradition is 100% man-made and based on a very long document they wrote with no guidance from God, but every Catholic denies that and insists all of them are Biblical.

 

[trophy33]

Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

Yes.
It does not mean that there are no persons of authority who can say truthful things, like for example a math teacher. But if they say something theological that is contradictory to Scriptures, then Scriptures have the ultimate authority.

The context of Sola Scriptura principle was the papal dominancy over the salvation of people in the medieval ages.

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

No.

There are many ways of knowing the truth - our personal experiences, logic, scientific experiments, the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit, Biblical writings etc.

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Its quite unclear what you mean by this wording.

Philosophicaly, the foundation of any truth is God, because all reality exists in Him.

Practically, there are various sources we must combine in our life to recognize what is true, see the answer number two. Our experiences, reason, Scriptures, other people, logic, science etc.

 

[Cute Peonies]

I'm here to emphasise what they said ↓

It is, assuredly, not a religious bureaucracy headquartered in Rome, which is the end goal of your question.

Nowhere in scripture is the church defined as being the Roman Catholic Church, nor is a hierarchal structure ever depicted with a pope, cardinal, and bishops.

Nor was the congregation founded or built on Peter, nor did Peter have any primacy, and the first bishop of Rome was Linus, and Peter was never part of the RCC at any time.

Or rules that priests are required to remain single and celibate.

Every single Catholic tradition is 100% man-made and based on a very long document they wrote with no guidance from God, but every Catholic denies that and insists all of them are Biblical.

I can't reply to your question but reading this thread comforts me in my denomination.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl, in all these passages you posted, not one of them tells us what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth. I promise you that there is a passage that tells us what is the is the pillar and ground of the truth, and this passage I speak of does not say it is the bible. Would you like me to post for you where in the Bible it tells us what is?

There you go...
I will save you the trouble.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The problem with leaning on that verse is that one would then have to say that the truth didn't exist before the Church was born.

I suggest a verse that marries with the whole context of scripture and the God story from the beginning is John 1:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...

...The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for your response, but I couldn't help but notice you too failed to answer the question I feel is very significant to this thread.

" For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?"

Have a Blessed day!

I said that the rule (the standard that judges all doctrine) is scripture but that God Himself is the "upholder" of it (see my detailed response above).


1 Cor 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."

Heb 1:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the Word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

========================

Which is why the magesterium of the "one true nation church" in Christ's day - started by God at Sinai - can be "slam hammered" sola-scriptura by Christ in Mark 7:6-13 (as already pointed out) -- when its traditions and doctrines stray from conforming to the Word of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you Saucy for your response, but I must disagree with you on your answer. The reason being, is that Jesus never said anywhere in Holy Scripture that His words are the "pillar of our truth and faith."

============================


1 Cor 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."

Heb 1:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the Word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
========================

Which is why the magesterium of the "one true nation church" in Christ's day - started by God at Sinai - can be "slam hammered" sola-scriptura by Christ in Mark 7:6-13 -- when its traditions and doctrines stray from conforming to the Word of God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So if all the bibles in the world disappear the Christian faith does too?
What if Christianity disappears but bibles are still around?
Which does the faith in Christ depend?

What sort of Bible did Noah have? What sort of Bible did Abraham have? What sort of bureaucratic religious institution did either of them have to dictate to them their faith and morals?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, first off my friend, for you to know the alleged "end goal" of my question would require you to know the workings and thoughts of my mind. With that being said, I am 100% sure you are not omnipotent.

Secondly, if you are assured it is not some "religious bureaucracy", what is it that you believe Scripture says is the pillar and ground of the truth?

I invite you to visit my new thread here - A Question for Catholics | Christian Forums

 

[Fidelibus]

Or rules that priests are required to remain single and celibate.

Every single Catholic tradition is 100% man-made and based on a very long document they wrote with no guidance from God, but every Catholic denies that and insists all of them are Biblical.

Hello CFC. I can tell you would really like to turn this thread into another Catholic bashing thread, (or JW's, or Mormons, or Buddhist, ect.) but I ask that you please not go there. There are plenty of them already throughout this forum you could go to, if that's what you want to do.

This is a thread for non-Protestants like myself, to ask Bible Alone Protestant believers, like yourself, questions on their/your, Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological belief system.

I have continually asked you certain questions from my OP that you have not yet to answer. Why is that? I will ask again in hopes you will take the time to address it. Thanks.

"For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?"

Have a Blessed day!