SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As I said - it is possible someone here does not "like" an independent group such as "ChristianityToday" publishing that statement about SDAS being fifth in size for all Christian denominations in the world - - or "does not like" the criteria used by ChristianityToday to get to that ranking result among denomination. Choose as you wish.
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Or, someone here does not "like" misinformation being pandered as hard fact.

 

[BobRyan]

Or, someone here does not "like" misinformation being pandered as hard fact.

exactly my point

 

[The Liturgist]

As I said - it is possible someone here does not "like" an independent group such as "ChristianityToday" publishing that statement about SDAs being fifth in size for all Christian denominations in the world - - or "does not like" the criteria used by ChristianityToday to get to that ranking result among denomination. Choose as you wish.

25 million adherents and 21 Million baptized members does contribute to the point they made.

So it depends on "whose counting" and what criteria they use for "what is a denomination".

It is super easy to say the SDA denomination is a real denomination with a single point of administration managing financial policy, one agreed upon set of doctrines and representing the face of the entire denomination , as one single denomination.

If we review all other "Denominations" using that criteria when determining the size of any given denomination - then the numbers and ranking of 5th vs 22nd will be affected.

Again, I have already addressed these points - regardless of whether you count individual denominations or communions, which the ChristianityToday article counted, the SDA still comes out around 10th place.

My numbers were verified independently by @icedragon101 and are on Wikipedia. Likewise, my claim that the author ignored or forgot to include several communions - their original standard, is easy to verify; just look at the list. And again, I also listed individual integrated denominations like the SDA.

I feel like you didn’t bother reading my post, because if you had, you would not be raising these points, and I would ask you to go back and reread it.

I can personally see no way in which supporting the figures provided by ChristianityToday is not logically fallacious, and I also cannot conceive why the SDA being tenth or twelfth in size vs. fifth possibly matters, considering that the SDA is still one of the largest denominations in the world, and especially considering that in several posts in which larger denominations have been mentioned, SDA members have quoted the parable of the Narrow Gate. “many are chosen, but few are called.”

To put it another way, even though the SDA is not the fifth largest, but at most the tenth largest denomination, if it were in the Eastern Orthodox communiom it would be the third largest church, and if it were in the Oriental Orthodox or Anglican communions, it would be the second largest church.

 

[tall73]

It is super easy to say the SDA denomination is a real denomination with a single point of administration managing financial policy, one agreed upon set of doctrines and representing the face of the entire denomination , as one single denomination.

If we review all other "Denominations" using that criteria when determining the size of any given denomination - then the numbers and ranking of 5th vs 22nd will be affected.

I asked you to explain how the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church would not qualify as a group of the sort you ask about. The Liturgist mentioned them as well.

So please explain.

 

[tall73]

The same way you do with Zech 9:9 different from Zech 9:10...

As already noted by me and now skimmed over in your response above.

Both of us recognizing that Zech 9:10 speaks of two different periods does not explain the context of Jeremiah 4. I went through the whole context and spelled out how it all fit together, including the part you claim I didn't.

If you claim it does not fit together, then go through the whole of chapter 4 and explain what each part means.

 

[tall73]

Again, I have already addressed these points

Yes you did. By either measure the statement that thy were the 5th largest was not true.

Prior to your explaining why the article is incorrect I think it is excusable that someone would read the statement from Christianity Today and accept it as credible.

But once the facts are out there, denying them doesn't change the facts.

 

[tall73]

Well "I am not the one" arguing for dirt piled on Satan during the millennium ... that is someone else's idea here. I am simply pointing out that during the Millennium


1. Satan is on Earth not some other planet or galaxy in the universe
2. Satan has no humans to tempt.
3. Earth is desolate just as Jer 4 and Rev 19 state

The explanation on the SDA website, and your own words earlier in the thread state that the abyss IS the desolate earth.

That is plainly incorrect per Rev. 9 and Luke 8.

It is not the desolate earth, but a particular place that he is locked into, and when he is locked into it he does not have access to the earth. And the abyss was there before the earth was desolate.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Luk 8:30 Jesus then asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” for many demons had entered him.
Luk 8:31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.

 

[tall73]

3. Earth is desolate just as Jer 4 and Rev 19 state

Currently I think that Jesus destroys the wicked at His second coming, based on 2 Thess. 1. Since it is a literal context and more straight-forward than Revelation 19, I prefer to use that as evidence.

I don't see that you have tied Jeremiah 4 to Rev. 19 at all successfully.

Nor do I think you have addressed the article the Liturgist posted which takes a very different view of Rev. 19 and the 1k years generally, taking an a-mil, ant-chiliast approach.

So far you have talked past each other on most of the details.

I am not sure what to make of some of the details of Rev. 19-20, and have been considering various views for some time.

But one of the things you would need to explain is the timeline. You say there are no nations during the 1k years. But he is put in the abyss so that he cannot deceive the nations.

And then when he is let out, he deceives them again. That doesn't make a lot of sense if they are not there.

And it is not until after satan deceives the nations and the fire from heaven consumes them that the 2nd resurrection is stated to happen. So by your logic there should be no nations to deceive.

Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan deceives the nations, then meets his fate. But it is stated that after this the resurrection happens and then each receive their fate.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

Currently I think that Jesus destroys the wicked at His second coming, based on 2 Thess. 1. Since it is a literal context and more straight-forward than Revelation 19,

Well turns out "the rest were killed" statement in Rev 19 is a pretty strong all-inclusive statement - but I do agree that 2 Thess 1 makes the same case about the lost.

And Jer 4's "no humans" on a desolated Earth - obviously gives the same result.

I don't see that you have tied Jeremiah 4 to Rev. 19 at all successfully.

You don't have any other choice that you have selected for that "no humans" ... "Desolate" earth condition nor has anyone else come up with "another time" for Earth having destroyed/ruined cities and no humans on this planet with the hills "moving back and forth".

Which is kind of the elephant in the living room that you are ignoring at this point.

A number of posts argue for agreeing that EARTH is where Satan is located during the millennium but because they are trying not to look at the "desolate earth" details in Jer 4 - they keep trying to solve it by placing Satan under the ground and ignoring that part of Jer 4 and Rev 19.

 

[BobRyan]

The explanation on the SDA website, and your own words earlier in the thread state that the abyss IS the desolate earth.

True and others here are posting that "on Earth under some dirt" is that "bottomless pit".

Either way it leaves Satan on Earth - not in some other part of the Universe.

So that leaves the two points

1. Desolate Earth - no humans (even you admit - "no lost people") at that point.
2. Saints raptured to heaven at Rev 19 appearing of Christ as per John 14:1-3, Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4:13-18

Nothing but a "desolate Earth" left after the appearing of Christ
Saints are taken to heaven at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ

 

[BobRyan]

It is not the desolate earth, but a particular place that he is locked into,

Not in Rev 20 and btw nobody here is claiming some other texts in Matthew show Satan banished to desolated-no-humans-on-planet Earth during the life of Christ - so not sure why you switch contexts like that.

 

[BobRyan]

Both of us recognizing that Zech 9:10 speaks of two different periods

And this happens in every chapter of the OT speaking to future events such as the first advent of Christ. It is not like this is some "new feature" that suddenly appears in Jer 4.

Your only solution for the details in Jer 4 regarding a desolate earth with no humans - so far - appears to be confined to not looking at them.

I went through the whole context and spelled out how it all fit together, including the part you claim I didn't. .

you claimed in essence : "earth" can't mean "earth" ... "no humans on Earth" can't mean "no humans on Earth" -- Earth with nothing but ruined cities "can't mean Earth with nothing but ruined cities destroyed in God's anger" -

And each time you defend your "can't mean what it says" solution is justified by "because some other text in this same chapter addresses a different point in time" just as Zech 9:9 is a different point in time from Zech 9:10.

It looks kind of like a "non-answer" from where I am sitting.

 

[BobRyan]

So are you also opposing this Bible doctrine as well these days or do you still agree with it?

Saints are taken to heaven at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ

 

[tall73]

Well turns out "the rest were killed" statement in Rev 19 is a pretty strong all-inclusive statement - but I do agree that 2 Thess 1 makes the same case about the lost.

All things being equal a text in a literal context would take priority over a text in an apocalyptic context, due to the nature of apocalyptic. When they agree, all the better.

We agree on the big picture element.

 

[tall73]

So are you also opposing this Bible doctrine as well these days or do you still agree with it?

Saints are taken to heaven at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ

At the current time I agree with that.

 

[tall73]

And this happens in every chapter of the OT speaking to future events such as the first advent of Christ. It is not like this is some "new feature" that suddenly appears in Jer 4.

Saying that we agree it happens in some texts does not explain how you see it happening here. I asked you go to through the whole chapter, as I did, and give your explanation. You didn't do that.

You should if you want me to entertain your take on it.

Your only solution for the details in Jer 4 regarding a desolate earth with no humans - so far - appears to be confined to not looking at them.

Incorrect, the texts states that he saw no people. But then the rest of the chapter relates other details that explains why he saw no people at that time.

I also see the earth without form and void as a poetic description of the destruction of nations caused by the judgment He carried out at that time.

When viewed this way it fits the other details in the chapter. If you want to give another view of the various parts of the chapter, then spell out each part.

you claimed in essence : "earth" can't mean "earth"

No, I claimed that earth meant earth. And he was viewing it after the destruction caused by God's judgment on various nations at that time, and applied a poetic description comparing it to the pre-creation earth.

. "no humans on Earth" can't mean "no humans on Earth"

He said he saw none. But then he explains why.

-- Earth with nothing but ruined cities "can't mean Earth with nothing but ruined cities destroyed in God's anger" -

I actually note that this was what was predicted earlier in the chapter, and further explained at the end of the chapter, which you think are totally separate.

It looks kind of like a "non-answer" from where I am sitting.

It looks to me like you don't actually address what I did say, but mischaracterize it. And you refuse to give your take on the whole chapter.

If you insist it is talking about different things, spell them all out. If you won't spell out your view on the whole chapter, why should I be interested in your take?

Now since we both agree the earth would be empty after the 2nd coming, my issue is not with that conclusion. My issue is with applying Jeremiah 4 to the same time as Rev. 19.

Rev. 19 does not mention moving mountains, the earth being without form or void, birds fleeing, etc.

The only link at all is seeing no humans. But I think the rest of the context of Jer. 4 spells out that there were humans still, and why he didn't see them when looking.

If you want to change my mind, spell out your take on each element in the chapter.

 

[tall73]

True and others here are posting that "on Earth under some dirt" is that "bottomless pit".

I stated that I do not know whether it is a physical place under the earth, or a spiritual realm with a connection to earth such that some are allowed out, and some placed in, at God's discretion.

tall73 said: ↑

It is not the desolate earth, but a particular place that he is locked into

Not in Rev 20

This is the part of your argument that makes no sense. You are claiming that the abyss changed. Going by the Scripture text there is no reason to think it did change.

In chapter 9 the earth is not desolate. The description is given of the pit of the abyss. It has a key. Things go up out of it and then those things impact the earth. The pit of the abyss is not the earth. It is a place of holding. You have to leave the pit to effect those people on the earth.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Chapter 20 is consistent with the explanation in 9. The abyss still has a key. satan is thrown into the pit and it is sealed OVER him. Previously things had to go up to come out of the pit to the earth, and now he is thrown in and covered over. There is nothing to suggest the nature of the abyss changed. It being a holding place is consistent, it having a key is consistent, having to go down into it, and come up out of it is consistent.


Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Now you say that satan is bound to earth so he can't deceive other worlds. But it says satan comes out of his prison to go to four corners of the earth. According to you the four corners of the earth WERE his prison. It is only when he comes out of the prison that he goes to the four corners of the earth. This is consistent with the information in Rev. 9 where entities only impacted the earth once they left the abyss prison.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

You have given no reason to change the meaning of abyss from Rev. 9 to Rev. 20. Whether the earth is desolate or not does not change the definition of the abyss, already related earlier in the book when the earth was not desolate.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I stated that I do not know whether it is a physical place under the earth, or a spiritual realm with a connection to earth such that some are allowed out, and some placed in, at God's discretion.

tall73 said: ↑

It is not the desolate earth, but a particular place that he is locked into



This is the part of your argument that makes no sense. You are claiming that the abyss changed. Going by the Scripture text there is no reason to think it did change.

In chapter 9 the earth is not desolate. The description is given of the pit of the abyss. It has a key. Things go up out of it and then those things impact the earth. The pit of the abyss is not the earth. It is a place of holding. You have to leave the pit to effect those people on the earth.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Chapter 20 is consistent with the explanation in 9. The abyss still has a key. satan is thrown into the pit and it is sealed OVER him. Previously things had to go up to come out of the pit to the earth, and now he is thrown in and covered over. There is nothing to suggest the nature of the abyss changed. It being a holding place is consistent, it having a key is consistent, having to go down into it, and come up out of it is consistent.


Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Now you say that satan is bound to earth so he can't deceive other worlds. But it says satan comes out of his prison to go to four corners of the earth. According to you the four corners of the earth WERE his prison. It is only when he comes out of the prison that he goes to the four corners of the earth. This is consistent with the information in Rev. 9 where entities only impacted the earth once they left the abyss prison.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

You have given no reason to change the meaning of abyss from Rev. 9 to Rev. 20. Whether the earth is desolate or not does not change the definition of the abyss, already related earlier in the book when the earth was not desolate.

I think the pit might be extra dimensional, possibly hollow earth. The gates of hell, might be describing an extra dimensional portal to another place. Think Jacobs ladder, it was a gate, Stargate, Up to heaven. the Gates of hell might be a gate down under.

 

[tall73]

I think the pit might be extra dimensional, possibly hollow earth. The gates of hell, might be describing an extra dimensional portal to another place.

Yes, I think it likely supernatural rather than physical.

I mentioned the Luke text about the demons not wanting to be sent there.

Luk 8:30 Jesus then asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” for many demons had entered him.
Luk 8:31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.
Luk 8:32 Now a large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, and they begged him to let them enter these. So he gave them permission.
Luk 8:33 Then the demons came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and drowned.

But it may also be parallel to Peter's referenced holding place, though Peter uses different terms.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Peter's use of the term Tartarus is significant for your theory due to the history of the term.

Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

 

[tall73]

Think Jacobs ladder, it was a gate, Stargate, Up to heaven. the Gates of hell might be a gate down under.

I see the ladder as pointing to Christ, the Way to heaven, based on the following:

Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”