• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,499
11,987
Georgia
✟1,109,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Now you claim the following verses are a contextual island and speak of the 1k years.

Your solution appears to be that we ignore the part about "THE EARTH" without form, void, no humans, cities in ruins, hills moving as a result of the "great anger" of the LORD.

1. The EARTH - without form and void - 4:23
2. The HEAVENS - had no light 4:23
3. Mountains - quaking 4:24
4. Hills - moving back and forth 4:24
5. NO Humans - 4:25
6. BIRDS - had fled - 4:25
7. ALL cities in ruins before the ANGER of the LORD 4:26
8. Earth is not completely destroyed -- but is DESOLATE 4:27
9. Heavens are dark 4:28


Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”


We know from Rev 20 that the Earth "still exists" in some form even after the 1000 years so God did not make "a complete end of it".

Your argument of the form: "ignore all that because some other texts address a different point in time" - I do not find compelling.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,499
11,987
Georgia
✟1,109,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Their article is in error as I have explained, and I will contact them, but I think it would behoove us not to quote them, or promote their figures,

I guess it depends on whether one is ok with having such good news being published about the Adventist denomination by independent sources.

So far I find their way of counting to be one of the valid options. You have free will you can try get them to do something else as you wish.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,095,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The text says of the birds "they had fled".

Your argument seems to claim that birds could not exist - feeding on corpses at the start of the 1000 years if there is ever a point where it can be said "they had fled".

If you are happy with that sort of argument I am fine for you to have it - as opposing what I have stated so far.

I noted that one text claims they flock to the carnage to eat. The other says they are gone because they fled. They are not describing the same thing.


My objective is to provide the best most accurate contrast between our view and others for the objective unbiased readers.

Great, your view is to claim slice of Jeremiah 4 is describing Rev. 20, ignoring everything else the chapter says, and then saying that the desolate earth is the abyss when the abyss was already defined as something other than the desolate earth. I agree, people can certainly contrast that with looking at the context of both passages and realizing it is not as you claim.


Your solution appears to be that we ignore the part about "THE EARTH" without form, void, no humans, cities in ruins, hills moving as a result of the "great anger" of the LORD.

In fact I did not ignore it. He is relating the destruction of nations at that time, and he sees great upheaval in the wake of their armies. In fact, I went through the whole chapter and commented.

It even states the cities will be destroyed in the part you don't think should be included.

We know from Rev 20 that the Earth "still exists" in some form even after the 1000 years so God did not make "a complete end of it".

We also know that it doesn't say it was without form and void in Rev. 20, or that the hills move etc. Your application of this text to that time is not stated in either text. And you ignored the context to get to your conclusions.

Your argument of the form: "ignore all that because some other texts address a different point in time" - I do not find compelling.

Your argument that a particular slice of Jeremiah 4 relates to the time of Rev. 20, but not the rest is not compelling. You ignore the elements before and after, even those that relate to the same destruction cities you cite. And you apply it to this other time period with no reference in the text that is the case.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
45,432
6,935
✟1,058,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
BobRyan said:
Regardless of how far you suppose one can insert Satan in the ground -- you are leaving him "on Earth" even in your view with no access to humans.



No humans on the earth during the 1000 years...
Yesterday at 12:57 PM #142

Nothing but a "desolate Earth" left after the appearing of Christ


So that would mean "no living humans in the earth for 1000 years" no matter how much dirt one chooses say is piled on top of Satan at that time - it still leaves him on earth for 1000 years with no humans.


He is in the pit, not "on the Earth" and he is there to keep him away from all the unsaved humans alive on the Earth.


The arrival of Christ for the second time accomplishes many things including the vials of wrath and destroying the army of the beast at Armageddon as well as resulting in the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOF. There is one more thing mentioned during the second coming that many do not notice which is the future rule over the nations which proves there are unsaved mortals that are set aside for being ruled over by the rod of iron:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, there are no scriptures which state all mortals are slain at the second coming leaving none to be ruled over.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,095,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well obviously if you put the pit "on Earth" then it leaves Satan "bound on Earth" in Rev 20 just as the OP says in Belief #27. And I don't think that looks like a "problem" for doctrine #27 as stated.

But that is not what the belief statement says. The belief statement claims that the satan and his angels will occupy the desolate earth, not be confined to a holding place under the earth.

The millennium is the thousand-year reign ofhrist with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)


And what you claimed previously was not that satan is confined to a pit under the earth. Rather, you claimed the desolate earth is the pit:

BobRyan said:


If a desolate Earth with no humans on it is the bottomless pit prison

You claim that the abyss IS the desolate earth. And no wonder, as the Adventist belief statement page states:

What Adventists Believe about the Millennium and the End of Sin - Adventist.org

So where is this pit where Satan is to be locked up so he ‘might not deceive the nations any longer’? Though the Bible doesn’t specifically state it, we can infer this pit refers to the earth after the resurrection of the saints.

All the righteous have already been taken up to Heaven to live with Christ (Revelation 20:4), and the wicked are still dead in their graves (Revelation 20:5). There is no one on earth for Satan to deceive. The entire planet is empty, left in ruins, without a single human being (Jeremiah 4:24-26).

And of course, this is all in line with Ellen White in the Great Controversy:


The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 41: Desolation of the Earth

That the expression "bottomless pit" represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures. Concerning the condition of the earth "in the beginning," the Bible record says that it "was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Genesis 1:2. Prophecy teaches that it will be brought back, partially at least, to this condition. Looking forward to the great day of God, the prophet Jeremiah declares: "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down." Jeremiah 4:23-26.

Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight.



As seen in Rev. 9 the pit is not the desolate earth. It was present before the earth was desolate. Things come up out of it to impact the earth.


Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

And this abyss is mentioned in Luke as well, and was the demons did not want to go to it then:

Luk 8:30 Jesus then asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” for many demons had entered him.
Luk 8:31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
45,432
6,935
✟1,058,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Your solution appears to be that we ignore the part about "THE EARTH" without form, void, no humans, cities in ruins, hills moving as a result of the "great anger" of the LORD.

1. The EARTH - without form and void - 4:23
2. The HEAVENS - had no light 4:23
3. Mountains - quaking 4:24
4. Hills - moving back and forth 4:24
5. NO Humans - 4:25
6. BIRDS - had fled - 4:25
7. ALL cities in ruins before the ANGER of the LORD 4:26
8. Earth is not completely destroyed -- but is DESOLATE 4:27
9. Heavens are dark 4:28


Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”


We know from Rev 20 that the Earth "still exists" in some form even after the 1000 years so God did not make "a complete end of it".

Your argument of the form: "ignore all that because some other texts address a different point in time" - I do not find compelling.


If you would post the rest of the chapter in verses 29 on the readers will see many people mentioned. You are isolating part of the chapter and presenting it out of context to make it appear to support your theology when it actually proves it wrong. Many people on the Earth in Jerusalem 4.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pasifika
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,095,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So far I find their way of counting to be one of the valid options.

Ok, let's take a concrete example.

Explain why their way of counting eliminates the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,095,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you would post the rest of the chapter in verses 29 on the readers will see many people mentioned. You are isolating part of the chapter and presenting it out of context to make it appear to support your theology when it actually proves it wrong. Many people on the Earth in Jerusalem 4.

He claims only those few verses he cites refer to the 1k years. The rest, all around it, is different--even though the context is connected and speaks of the destruction of the cities, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,535
1,368
72
Sebring, FL
✟861,151.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Before replying to individual posts, let me point out that the meaning of the Millennium is well established in Christian culture.

The Sage (Sequence Publishing)

Millennium -Noun

1 A span of 1000 years.
2 The 1000th anniversary …
3 (New Testament) In Revelations it is foretold that those faithful to Jesus will reign with Jesus over the earth for a thousand years; the meaning of these words have been much debated; some denominations (e.g. Jehovah’s Witnesses) expect it to be a thousand years of justice and peace and happiness.



Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1971

Under Millennium: “In Christian tradition, it refers to the period, described in Rev. 20:1-8, during which ‘the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan,” was to be bound, making possible a universal blessedness. During this period Christ would reign, and the martyrs would be raised to reign with him; the remainder of the faithful dead would not be raised until the thousand years were ended.”

It is generally agreed that in the Millennium, Christ reigns on earth with the faithful, or some of the faithful.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,535
1,368
72
Sebring, FL
✟861,151.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Looking at SDA Basic Belief #27, it is clear that it comes from Ellen White, Ellen White, and Ellen White. It’s what she taught but it doesn’t line up with the Bible.

Ellen White:
By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset.

Ellen White, The Great Controversy, Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended
Kindle Location 48448-52

What does the Bible, or in this case, the Book of Revelation, say?

In Revelation 19:19-20 the Beast is captured and destroyed.
In Revelation 20:8, Satan gathers the armies of Gog and Magog.
In Revelation 20:10, Satan is destroyed, thrown into the Lake of Fire.
In Revelation 21:2, New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

In Ellen White’s conception, Jesus comes down from heaven in the City of New Jerusalem. Satan and his armies of the unsaved resurrected lay seige to New Jerusalem.

In the Bible, Satan is destroyed before New Jerusalem appears on earth.

They aren’t consistent and the SDA belief comes from Ellen White, not the Bible.

Interestingly enough, Ellen White’s belief that confining Satan to earth constitutes binding is related to a belief that there are other worlds apparently filled with humans.

Ellen White:
Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight.

Same source, Kindle location 48370.

I can only wonder if she had been reading Swedenborg when she came up with this idea.
 
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,401
526
Parts Unknown
✟534,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Looking at SDA Basic Belief #27, it is clear that it comes from Ellen White, Ellen White, and Ellen White. It’s what she taught but it doesn’t line up with the Bible.

Ellen White:
By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset.

Ellen White, The Great Controversy, Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended
Kindle Location 48448-52

What does the Bible, or in this case, the Book of Revelation, say?

In Revelation 19:19-20 the Beast is captured and destroyed.
In Revelation 20:8, Satan gathers the armies of Gog and Magog.
In Revelation 20:10, Satan is destroyed, thrown into the Lake of Fire.
In Revelation 21:2, New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

In Ellen White’s conception, Jesus comes down from heaven in the City of New Jerusalem. Satan and his armies of the unsaved resurrected lay seige to New Jerusalem.

In the Bible, Satan is destroyed before New Jerusalem appears on earth.

They aren’t consistent and the SDA belief comes from Ellen White, not the Bible.

Interestingly enough, Ellen White’s belief that confining Satan to earth constitutes binding is related to a belief that there are other worlds apparently filled with humans.

Ellen White:
Here is to be the home of Satan with his evil angels for a thousand years. Limited to the earth, he will not have access to other worlds to tempt and annoy those who have never fallen. It is in this sense that he is bound: there are none remaining, upon whom he can exercise his power. He is wholly cut off from the work of deception and ruin which for so many centuries has been his sole delight.

Same source, Kindle location 48370.

I can only wonder if she had been reading Swedenborg when she came up with this idea.
I actually still believe there are other unfallen worlds
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,535
1,368
72
Sebring, FL
✟861,151.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
On the Final Judgment, Ellen White often says that the condemned will realize that they were wrong before God destroys them. I can’t find that in the Bible but it is clearly part of her teaching. It doesn’t make any sense to me either, but I guess that’s a minor detail.

Quotes from Ellen White:
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed.
Kindle Location 48474
White, Ellen G.. CONFLICT OF THE AGES: THE FIVE BOOKS. Patriarchs And Prophets; Prophets And Kings; The Desire Of Ages; The Acts Of The Apostles; The Great Controversy


The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed.
Kindle Location 48487

[Even Satan realizes that he was wrong.]
Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven.
Kindle Location 48536

[The unsaved beg for mercy.]
Demons acknowledge the deity of Christ and tremble before His power, while men are supplicating for mercy and groveling in abject terror.
Kindle Location 48060

[The unsaved are angry at Satan but it is too late.]
The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.
Kindle Location 48558-62


These quotes are all from the last chapter of Ellen White’s The Great Controversy, which is Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,535
1,368
72
Sebring, FL
✟861,151.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The notion that the earth has no people, no nations, no villages, towns or cities during the Millennium comes from Ellen White. The passage in Jeremiah that the SDA cites today in support of this claim is the same one used by Ellen White.



At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the City of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants.
Ellen White, The Great Controversy, Chapter 41:The Desolation of the Earth. Kindle Location 48342 of Conflict of the Ages.


That the expression “bottomless pit” represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures.
Ellen White, same source. Kindle Location 48360

She goes on to quote, or misquote and misconstrue, a series of Old Testament scriptures. It doesn’t occur to her that prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote, or spoke, largely of events and controversies of their time. Their primary mission was to challenge the Israelites to repent, avoid idolatry, and follow God. When OT prophets did prophecy, the events they foretold have already been fulfilled in most cases.
 
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,401
526
Parts Unknown
✟534,628.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The notion that the earth has no people, no nations, no villages, towns or cities during the Millennium comes from Ellen White. The passage in Jeremiah that the SDA cites today in support of this claim is the same one used by Ellen White.



At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the City of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants.
Ellen White, The Great Controversy, Chapter 41:The Desolation of the Earth. Kindle Location 48342 of Conflict of the Ages.


That the expression “bottomless pit” represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures.
Ellen White, same source. Kindle Location 48360

She goes on to quote, or misquote and misconstrue, a series of Old Testament scriptures. It doesn’t occur to her that prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote, or spoke, largely of events and controversies of their time. Their primary mission was to challenge the Israelites to repent, avoid idolatry, and follow God. When OT prophets did prophecy, the events they foretold have already been fulfilled in most cases.
see I told you so.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,185
8,582
51
The Wild West
✟826,486.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
That statement is of the form...
"How dare you quote and independent organization like ChristianityToday saying something positive about the Adventist denomination.. how delusional"

You have free will of course and can post that on a thread about the millennium if you so wish.

I think what my Canadian colleague @MarkRohfrietsch wished to express was that since the statistics from Pew Research and other services that are more specialized in calculating church membership than ChristianityToday, since generating statistics about churches is the primary business of Pew Research, whereas ChristianityToday is a news site focused on journalism, and journalists sometimes make factual errors, as do collectors of statistics, although in statistics we account for this with something called “the margin of error”; advanced statistics can also produce erroneous output, but church membership is extremely basic; you could seriously do it all in Excel or by hand, since you are only counting one value; multiple demographics are handled using advanced software like SAS, which is extremely powerful and expensive, and SPSS, which is probably the most powerful and expensive option, since it is developed by IBM and runs on a wide range of hardware, up to and including the massive IBM mainframes that have driven mission critical applications since the 1960s, such as airline reservations, credit card processing, and during the Apollo program, NASA’s Real Time Computing Center, which you can read a neat history of here: https://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch8-2.html

The bottom line is the only thing in the article favorable to the SDA in its current form was the incorrect statement that it was the fifth largest denomination. I have provided information showing that is not the case, and @icedragon101 helpfully linked to the same statistics I used when calculating both on the size of communions (churches in full Eucharistic union with each other, which is the metric the ChristianityToday article used, which are either one church or one denominational “family” in full communion, for example, the Calvary Chapel is one single church, which has 25 million members and was left out of the article, and the Lutheran World Federation, which they also omitted - it was the omission of these communions that made the article inaccurate with respect to size.

As I have said before, I also ran the numbers on the basis of individual denominations only, and the results were almost identical, largely because several of the denominations, such as the Anglican Communion, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox (which the article omitted) and the Assemblies of God have one church which is extremely large and accounts for the vast majority of their membership. Using the examples given above, the Anglican Communion has the Church of England with 26 million members, the Eastern Orthodox has the Russian Orthodox Church, also known as the Moscow Patriarchate, with 200 million members, the Oriental Orthodox has the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church with 30 million members, and finally you have the Assembly of God in Brazil with approximately 43 million. And the Calvary Chapel has 25 million, and so on.

Because we are talking about hard data verified from multiple sources and using rigorous statistics, and because the logical flaw in the ChristianityToday article is obvious, and really sloppy, to be frank (I could understand the author accidentally grouping the Oriental Orthodox with the Eastern Orthodox, although it does not appear that he did that, but rather simply failed to include them, along with the Lutheran World Federation, the Methodist World Federation, and the similiar communions of Reformed and Baptist churches, and the Calvary Chapel, which like the SDA is a single integrated denomination of American origin, albeit larger to the tune of 4 million members, but it was overlooked by the author.

Growth rate is another matter; the data I have looks like the Evangelical Church of Germany is growing faster than the SDA, which is ... highly unexpected, to put it mildly, and I do not have enough information on denominational membership year over year to authenticate the article’s claims on growth rate.

While the gross and obvious statistical errors in the Christianity Today article do point to a serious defect in their fact checking process, I do agree with the premise of the article, that the SDA should be more evangelical, which makes the errors even more frustrating, because I cannot cite the article, even though I agree with its premise. To cite the article in any way, owing to the gross defects that multiple members have identified and verified, would be logically fallacious, amounting to both an appeal to false authority, and an appeal to ignorance. This I believe was what @MarkRohfrietsch was referring to, more than anything else.

Logically fallacious arguments, such as argumentum ad hominem, appeals to false authority, non sequiturs, red herrings, strawman fallacies and appeals to ignorance are misleading both to the person who employs them, and people who accept them as fact; they do not contribute to the discovery of Truth and Reason, which are embodied in our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, who is the Divine Logos. Therefore, we should, as Christians, endeavor to familiarize ourselves with logic and also with good dialectic technique, so as to avoid fallacious arguments, and indeed minimize arguments altogether, in favor of dialogues which are mutually edifying.

At the same time, I cannot help but feel that being the tenth largest denomination is anything to be upset about. Most churches would be thrilled to have ten million members, let alone 21 million.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,499
11,987
Georgia
✟1,109,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I think what my Canadian colleague @MarkRohfrietsch wished to express was that since the statistics from Pew Research and other services that are more specialized in calculating church membership than ChristianityToday,

As I said - it is possible someone here does not "like" an independent group such as "ChristianityToday" publishing that statement about SDAs being fifth in size for all Christian denominations in the world - - or "does not like" the criteria used by ChristianityToday to get to that ranking result among denomination. Choose as you wish.

25 million adherents and 21 Million baptized members does contribute to the point they made.

So it depends on "whose counting" and what criteria they use for "what is a denomination".

It is super easy to say the SDA denomination is a real denomination with a single point of administration managing financial policy, one agreed upon set of doctrines and representing the face of the entire denomination , as one single denomination.

If we review all other "Denominations" using that criteria when determining the size of any given denomination - then the numbers and ranking of 5th vs 22nd will be affected.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,499
11,987
Georgia
✟1,109,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Notice what we find in this thread -- Nothing but a "desolate Earth" left after the appearing of Christ

DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

there we see that "NO HUMAN" is not a funny kind of way of say "YES lots of humans"

1. The EARTH - without form and void - 4:23
2. The HEAVENS - had no light 4:23
3. Mountains - quaking 4:24
4. Hills - moving back and forth 4:24
5. NO Humans - 4:25
6. BIRDS - had fled - 4:25
7. ALL cities in ruins before the ANGER of the LORD 4:26
8. Earth is not completely destroyed -- but is DESOLATE 4:27
9. Heavens are dark 4:28

The notion that the earth has no people, no nations, no villages, towns or cities during the Millennium comes from Ellen White.

Because??? "Ellen White wrote the Bible?" is that the argument???

When one responds to the Bible with something like "only Ellen White would know that" etc -- I find a paucity in the logic used for such a response.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,499
11,987
Georgia
✟1,109,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Looking at SDA Basic Belief #27, it is clear that it comes from Ellen White, Ellen White, and Ellen White.

until you read Jeremiah 4 , Rev 19, Jeremiah 4 and Rev 19 ... that is.

4 minutes ago #179
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,499
11,987
Georgia
✟1,109,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
He claims only those few verses he cites refer to the 1k years. The rest, all around it, is different

The same way you do with Zech 9:9 different from Zech 9:10...

As already noted by me and now skimmed over in your response above.

Zech 9:
9 Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is righteous and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey
.
10 And I will eliminate the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be eliminated.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the Euphrates River to the ends of the earth.

a lot of Bible students here will admit that
1. NT writers point out that vs 9 applies to Christ's first coming... palm Sunday
2. But vs 10 events did not happen at Christ's first coming. obviously

Your argument that a particular slice of Jeremiah 4 relates to the time of Rev. 20, but not the rest is not compelling.

You have the same problem with every O.T. chapter in the Bible describing the first coming of Christ, or Lucifer etc where elements from other time periods are mentioned in the same chapter.

Funny that when it gets to Jeremiah 4, suddenly this is the first time a few non-SDAs have "noticed" that ubiquitous Bible detail.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,499
11,987
Georgia
✟1,109,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
But that is not what the belief statement says. The belief statement claims that the satan and his angels will occupy the desolate earth, not be confined to a holding place under the earth.

Well "I am not the one" arguing for dirt piled on Satan during the millennium ... that is someone else's idea here. I am simply pointing out that during the Millennium
1. Satan is on Earth not some other planet or galaxy in the universe
2. Satan has no humans to tempt.
3. Earth is desolate just as Jer 4 and Rev 19 state

And in your case I also argue that you are not paying attention to the fact that all messianic prophecy in the OT is found in chapters that list more than one event in that same chapter and then when we find that to "Also be true" in the case of Jeremiah 4 - you treat it as if that is now "news". I don't follow that.

I also find that you don't have any solution at all that accommodates these desolate Earth details in Jere 4
58 minutes ago #179 - other than something like "not those verses please".
 
Upvote 0