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Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Spiritual Jew

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Obviously you should know the difference between partial and full fulfillment, as you just complained that I did not. I am pretty sure you can figure out what is fulfilled and what is not?
You said Amils believe "that Revelation 20 was already fulfilled in the first century". That is false. Are you not willing to acknowledge that you made a false accusation about Amil? Are you so insecure in your own beliefs that you have to resort to misrepresenting other beliefs in an effort to make your own seem credible?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Take that up with John. He witnessed the 1000 years, and it is future after the Second Coming.
No, it is not. Interpreting it that way contradicts a lot of other scripture which you have been shown many times. But, you are too stubborn to care about that, apparently.

You interpret the rest of scripture in light of how you interpret Revelation 20 in isolation when you should be interpreting Revelation 20 in light of the rest of scripture. And the rest of scripture does not teach what you believe Revelation 20 says.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You said Amils believe "that Revelation 20 was already fulfilled in the first century". That is false. Are you not willing to acknowledge that you made a false accusation about Amil? Are you so insecure in your own beliefs that you have to resort to misrepresenting other beliefs in an effort to make your own seem credible?

You could also address the exact same post to David.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Being glorified is not being an immortal. Is this a fantasy game, or God's Word?
LOL. Someone can be glorified but not immortal? That's nonsense. You are the one playing a fantasy game. Everyone here can see that.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The word wicked is not in those verses.
Do you need everything to be spelled out to you? Are you that lacking in discernment? You somehow think that the wicked and "they that have done evil" (John 5:29) are not the same people?

You can jump to assumptions and personal opinions all you want. Since you do not care for my opinions, as you call them, why should I speculate any more than I have to?
You would probably be the only person in the world who would try to say that the wicked are entirely different people than "they that have done evil".

They are the wicked dead after being consumed by fire. They will stand at the GWT. I would call them wicked at the GWT, but I doubt that would change anything for you.
What does this even mean? They're somehow not wicked before then but become wicked at the GWT? You make no sense.
 
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Timtofly

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You said Amils believe "that Revelation 20 was already fulfilled in the first century". That is false. Are you not willing to acknowledge that you made a false accusation about Amil? Are you so insecure in your own beliefs that you have to resort to misrepresenting other beliefs in an effort to make your own seem credible?
You could at least acknowledge what about Revelation 20 was fulfilled. Because you claim it started at the Cross.
 
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Timtofly

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No, it is not. Interpreting it that way contradicts a lot of other scripture which you have been shown many times. But, you are too stubborn to care about that, apparently.

You interpret the rest of scripture in light of how you interpret Revelation 20 in isolation when you should be interpreting Revelation 20 in light of the rest of scripture. And the rest of scripture does not teach what you believe Revelation 20 says.
I interpret Revelation 20 as fulfilling Genesis 2 and Exodus 20.
 
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Timtofly

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LOL. Someone can be glorified but not immortal? That's nonsense. You are the one playing a fantasy game. Everyone here can see that.
No, I call it glorified. You call it being immortal, except most would assume you are referring to online fantasy games. An immortal is not in Scripture, but it is in Greek mythology.
 
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Timtofly

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Do you need everything to be spelled out to you? Are you that lacking in discernment? You somehow think that the wicked and "they that have done evil" (John 5:29) are not the same people?

You would probably be the only person in the world who would try to say that the wicked are entirely different people than "they that have done evil".

What does this even mean? They're somehow not wicked before then but become wicked at the GWT? You make no sense.
There is nothing about the wicked in or during the 1,000 years. It is only after the 1000 years are over that Satan is loosed.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No, I call it glorified. You call it being immortal, except most would assume you are referring to online fantasy games. An immortal is not in Scripture, but it is in Greek mythology.

Your hostility to immortality is blatantly and deeply unbiblical.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [Gr. phthartos or perishable] inherit incorruption [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable]. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed [Gr. allasso], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable], and we shall be changed [Gr. allasso]. For this corruptible [Gr. phthartos or perishable] must put on incorruption [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable], and this mortal [Gr. thnētos] must put on immortality [Gr. athanasia or deathlessness]. So when this corruptible [Gr. phthartos or perishable] shall have put on incorruption [Gr. aphthrsia or imperishable], and this mortal [Gr. thnētos] shall have put on immortality [Gr. athanasia or deathlessness], then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

This passage is describing the great supernatural change that occurs to God’s people when Jesus returns and takes them from a temporal fallen “flesh and blood” existence to an eternal glorified condition. Corruptibility and mortality are shown here to be interlinked. Incorruption and immortality are also shown to be enjoined. They describe the two diverse states existing in two completely different dimensions.

The whole context of 1 Corinthians 15 is the perfecting of the believer’s body by “the resurrection of the dead” where he is “raised in incorruption,” “raised in glory,” “raised in power” and “raised a spiritual body.” Why? Because “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The earth that the redeemed inherit is perfect. It is purged of every vestige of the fall by fire. It is wonderfully glorified and prepared for the similarly glorified saints.

Interestingly, this Greek word allasso used to describe the glorification of the earth in Hebrews 1:10-12 is also used to describe the glorification of the elect in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” or ‘mortality’ (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption” or “immortality.”

In short, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 articulates the prohibition that attends inheriting the new arrangement – “neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The new earth inhabitants must of necessity be immediately changed to enter the new glorified kingdom. As there was a commonality in the fall, so there will equally be a commonality in the glorification.

Since the earth is restored to its perfect original curse-free state through glorification those that would inhabit it must be likewise. Those that inherit this glorified earth require of necessity a body suited to it. Only those raised in spiritual bodies will bear the image of the heavenly. The kingdom of God that appears at Christ’s return is eternal and untarnished by the taint of sin.

After glorification and this corruptible taking on incorruption, Premils have the redeemed inheriting incorruption on a still imperfect and recuperating earth from the effects of the curse. They then amazingly imagine that the glorified saints will have to endure the sight of countless unregenerate mortals performing their vice on the new earth for a further thousand years. In reality, the perfected saints are surrounded by incorruption for many centuries. This is totally contrary to the scriptural teaching.

Romans 8:16-23 declares, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthartos or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will be finally delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.”

Scripture makes it abundantly clear there will be an end to the current fallen state. There will be a day of complete deliverance.

At this juncture we must briefly enquire, what is this “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage that will one day be removed? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.

It must also be noted, that the reference relating to those who desire deliverance from the present condition of “the bondage of corruption” is not restricted to the redeemed of God alone (those who “have the firstfruits of the Spirit”). The hope is more comprehensive. This passage tells us that the whole of creation is yearning for this monumental change. This only goes to show that all creation doesn’t simply experience the reality and awful cost of the fall, but that it yearns for relief from its corrosive clutches through its continuation.

When, then, will this perpetual groaning and travailing of all “creation” in pain, for the expressed reason of the continued existence of the awful “bondage of corruption” within “the creature,” actually be finally assuaged?

This approaching change occurs at the one final future coming of Christ – the day of redemption. It is only then that the “sons of God” are finally glorified, and therefore totally and eternally delivered from this continuing “bondage of corruption” into the “glorious liberty of the children of God.” Then, all redeemed creation will be transformed from corruption to incorruption. The time of the “redemption of our body” is the time that sees creation finally and eternally delivered from bondage. This is glorification. This is shown in the whole thrust and context of the introductory verses to this reference, where Paul was talking about man’s great deliverance. He is talking about the saints being “glorified” (v 17) at His return and describing it as “the glory which shall be revealed in us” (v 18).

This reading clearly locates the anticipated glorification feat to the day of redemption when Christ rescues His elect from this sin-cursed world. It is this concluding event that finally witnesses the entire elect of God of all time secure the last aspect of the redemptive process – the “redemption” of their bodies. It is this last day that sees the glorious “manifestation of the sons of God” (v 19) or “the glorious liberty of the children of God” (v 21). This event also sees to removal of everything that is in rebellion to God or does not belong to God.

This is the end. This is the second coming. This is the time when the elect are resurrection. No mention or allowance for this Premil thousand years. This reading clearly locates the anticipated glorification feat to the day of redemption when Christ rescues His elect from this sin-cursed world. It is this concluding event that finally witnesses the entire elect of God of all time secure the last aspect of the redemptive process – the “redemption” of their bodies. It is this last day that sees the glorious “manifestation of the sons of God” (v 19) or “the glorious liberty of the children of God” (v 21). This event also sees to removal of everything that is in rebellion to God or does not belong to God.

1 Peter 1:3-5: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance [Gr. kleronomia] incorruptible [Gr. aphthrsia or unending existence], and undefiled, and that fadeth not away [Gr. amarantos or perpetual], reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

The “inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away” is shown to arrive at the second coming. Premils try and move that to the end of their supposed future millennium. This passage rebuts that.

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.

To sustain your argument, you seem to suspend Christ's climactic appearing in power and glory (Matthew 19:28, 24:29-30, 25:31-32, Mark 13:24 and Luke 21:25-27) for an extra 1,000 yrs+. From what I can see, the Premil earth is little (if anything) different from ours today. It is saturated in sin, death, decay and rebellion. It is simply a re-run of our day. Many unsaved survive to enter into this future earth and prosper to such a degree that they overrun the earth. Corruption abounds relentless despite Christ victoriously ushering it in and reigning unsuccessfully for 1,000 yrs with the glorified saints with a subjugating rod of iron. The failure of this so-called glorious reign is exemplified in the fact that there is not one single convert for truth – in your paradigm.

You fail to see that God's fiery wrath is going to accompany His return, destroying the wicked and this current sin-cursed earth. He is then going to perfect (or glorify) this earth through regeneration in order to prepare it for the perfected (or glorified) saints. You don't recognize that mankind is either caught up or caught on, resulting in annihilation. You have some unsaved being destroyed with the wrath of God, others miraculously (and somehow) dodging it. This seems like a confused mess. Millions of wicked march into the millennial kingdom to inherit it along with the perfected saints.

The reality is, 1 Corinthians 15 tells us: “flesh and blood (or sinful mortals) cannot inherit the kingdom of God" because it is only the glorified in their glorified bodies that survive Christ's return and populate the new glorified earth. Also, "corruption" cannot enter unto the new earth because corruption cannot "inherit incorruption” (I Corinthians 15:50). The first fact we see in this reading is: the new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. In doing so, Paul makes it crystal-clear that corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.
 
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Timtofly

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The reality is, 1 Corinthians 15 tells us: “flesh and blood (or sinful mortals) cannot inherit the kingdom of God" because it is only the glorified in their glorified bodies that survive Christ's return and populate the new glorified earth. Also, "corruption" cannot enter unto the new earth because corruption cannot "inherit incorruption” (I Corinthians 15:50). The first fact we see in this reading is: the new earth that ushers in the kingdom of God is totally incorrupt. In doing so, Paul makes it crystal-clear that corruptible mortals are forbidden access to the new earth. Man in his sinful state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth.
Obviously, that is why there is a physical resurrection.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Blessed and Holy are those physically resurrected prior to, that means before the 1000 years.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have no hostility towards the "putting on of immortality". I take issue with the word "immortal".

You have an issue with the what the text says, thus your constant avoidance. Please address my post above and acknowledge what the sacred text says instead of forcing your faulty opinions on it.

By the way, you still haven't answered the questions re Gog and Magog above.
 
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Timtofly

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You have an issue with the what the text says, thus your constant avoidance. Please address my post above and acknowledge what the sacred text says instead of forcing your faulty opinions on it.

By the way, you still haven't answered the questions re Gog and Magog above.
You have not answered any if my questions, but I have always answered yours.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You have not answered any if my questions, but I have always answered yours.

The opposite is the truth. You duck every post, point and Scripture presented by posters. It is pointless engaging with you. I refer the observer to every single debate involving yourself on this board. This discussion is a classic case-and-point.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have no hostility towards the "putting on of immortality". I take issue with the word "immortal".

Have a look at the evidence above and address it instead of always fighting with the biblical proof or avoiding it. It is Scripture that forbids your theology.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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No, I call it glorified. You call it being immortal, except most would assume you are referring to online fantasy games. An immortal is not in Scripture, but it is in Greek mythology.
You need to start actually reading the Bible instead of just imagining what you think it says.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I have no hostility towards the "putting on of immortality". I take issue with the word "immortal".
If you put on immortality that makes you immortal. What is hard to understand about that?

You could at least acknowledge what about Revelation 20 was fulfilled. Because you claim it started at the Cross.
If you don't know by now how Amils interpret Revelation 20 after all the discussions we've had about it then you're just never going to get it.
 
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Timtofly

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If you put on immortality that makes you immortal. What is hard to understand about that?
No a complete change is necessary. You have yet to state putting on immortality over mortality is a change.
 
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Timtofly

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If you don't know by now how Amils interpret Revelation 20 after all the discussions we've had about it then you're just never going to get it.
Then the majority of Revelation 20 is already fulfilled per Amil, including the start of Satan's little season. Your Gog and Magog are currently gathering and about ready to march against Jerusalem.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Then the majority of Revelation 20 is already fulfilled per Amil, including the start of Satan's little season. Your Gog and Magog are currently gathering and about ready to march against Jerusalem.

And where exactly is Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation 20? You have a habit of adding unto the inspired text.
 
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