Can Salvation be lost?

[BobRyan]

But some of those who are against OSAS seem to take it too far. They get you saved by grace, but they put you back under the law to stay saved. So, you get saved and a few minutes later they get you lost the first time you sin.

I see that OSAS is not supported by the Bible - but neither does it support the idea that you are a lost person the moment you sin as a Christian. Rather you are in need of repentance and confession.

But for those who not only happen to sin one day... but in fact turn and reject their former connection with Christ - Rom 11 says "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief"

 

[FreeGrace2]

But some of those who are against OSAS seem to take it too far.

Anyone who doesn't believe in eternal security as already taken it too far.

They get you saved by grace, but they put you back under the law to stay saved. So, you get saved and a few minutes later they get you lost the first time you sin. Not only do they get you lost under the law again, but they get you lost with no hope of repentance.
They call the security of the believe "Once saved always saved."
We might call their teaching "Twice lost, lost forever."

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I see that OSAS is not supported by the Bible

In John 5:24, Jesus said whoever believes HAS (as in present tense possession) eternal life. and SHALL NOT come into condemnation (not perish) but has passed from death to life.

Now, can eternal life die? No. It is eternal.

Then in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, yes, the Bible, and specifically our Savior, was clear that salvation cannot be lost.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Consider that it took the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus to give you the new birth.
How can it be that a simple sin of the flesh can undo that? It would take another miracle to revert you from the born-again creature into a lost creature. You would have to be "Born again again" from a child of God back into a child of the devil. I don't see that miracle taking place anywhere in the NT.
Yes, there are ramifications for sinning. There is the "just recompense of reward" where the punishment matches the sin. There is a sin not unto death where one will forfeit his physical life for sin. There is the corruption in the flesh as a result of fleshy sins. But always the penalty matches the crime. Eye for an eye, not a life for an eye. Tooth for tooth, not execution for a tooth.
We have to think soberly. Let's not count the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus to be so fragile and impotent that it can be undone on little more than a wim.

 

[BobRyan]

In John 5:24, Jesus said whoever believes HAS (as in present tense possession) eternal life. and SHALL NOT come into condemnation (not perish) but has passed from death to life.

Now, can eternal life die? No. It is eternal.

Then in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So, yes, the Bible, and specifically our Savior, was clear that salvation cannot be lost.

That inference only works if you don't look at the texts that make OSAS impossible.

Here is an entire thread looking into those much avoided texts

Bible warnings about forgiveness revoked and being severed from Christ - fallen from Grace

 

[Christian7777777]

Consider that it took the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus to give you the new birth.
How can it be that a simple sin of the flesh can undo that? It would take another miracle to revert you from the born-again creature into a lost creature. You would have to be "Born again again" from a child of God back into a child of the devil. I don't see that miracle taking place anywhere in the NT.
Yes, there are ramifications for sinning. There is the "just recompense of reward" where the punishment matches the sin. There is a sin not unto death where one will forfeit his physical life for sin. There is the corruption in the flesh as a result of fleshy sins. But always the penalty matches the crime. Eye for an eye, not a life for an eye. Tooth for tooth, not execution for a tooth.
We have to think soberly. Let's not count the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus to be so fragile and impotent that it can be undone on little more than a wim.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[FreeGrace2]

That inference only works if you don't look at the texts that make OSAS impossible.

Your theory is impossible. With John 5:24 and John 10:28 understood, there are NO OTHER verses or texts "that make eternal secuerity impossible.

Here is an entire thread looking into those much avoided texts

Bible warnings about forgiveness revoked and being severed from Christ - fallen from Grace

No verse teaches loss of salvation. Unless one want to consider that the very clear words of Jesus in John 5:24 and 10:28 are lies.

Not me.

 

[BobRyan]

That inference only works if you don't look at the texts that make OSAS impossible.

Here is an entire thread looking into those much avoided texts

Bible warnings about forgiveness revoked and being severed from Christ - fallen from Grace

Your theory is impossible

Those texts at that link are not "my theory" they are the much avoided texts that get left out when a lot of inference is poured into texts like John 10:28

No verse teaches loss of salvation. .

saying it... and showing it - are two different things when it comes to that list of much avoided texts.

proof --
=========================

1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".

It is also a far more weighty matter than warning "the saved that they are in danger of still being saved but having 'less blessings' ".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those texts at that link are not "my theory" they are the much avoided texts that get left out when a lot of inference is poured into texts like John 10:28

I haven't avoided ANY text that the salvation losers suppose.

There is NO "inference poured into John 10:28. The words are plain enough.

The verse says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Now, go ahead and try to show that John 10:28 does NOT say this?

With John 5:24 and John 10:28 understood, there are NO OTHER verses or texts "that make eternal secuerity impossible.

Wanna bet?

Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter

1. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
2. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
3. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
4. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
5. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
6. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
7. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

You talk about "inference poured into John 10:28, a very plainly worded verse.

None of these verses say that salvation can be lost. One is FORCED to "pour some of that inference" into every one of the texts.

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".

To be "severed from Christ" is a warning about being outside of God's grace because of sin. Some call that being out of fellowship. However, John 10:28 is firm; those who have received eternal life shall never perish.

And you have no verse that says the opposite.

It is also a far more weighty matter than warning "the saved that they are in danger of still being saved but having 'less blessings' ".

This is where the Arminians fail to understand the whole issue.

When a child of God "goes off the rail" in sin, etc, it is WAY MORE than loss of blessings.

God, as Father, disciplines His children. Heb 12:11 says His discipline is PAINFUL.

Who wants to sign up for that? The problem is the most pastors seem rather ignorant of God's discipline anyway.

However, this is what Paul told the carnal Corinthians:

1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Does that sound like a mere loss of blessings?

Do you see the progression: weakness, sickness, and finally physical death.

Those are the things that God uses to spank His children.

I'm always amazed at the number of believers who have no clue about God's discipline.

No one will "get away" with anything.

 

[BobRyan]

With John 5:24 and John 10:28 understood, there are NO OTHER verses or texts "that make eternal secuerity impossible.

Wanna bet?

I think you just responded to your own claim .. I accidentally included a line in your post.. in my post.

In any case I notice you still don't touch the texts in that much-avoided-list I gave you.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".

It is also a far more weighty matter than warning "the saved that they are in danger of still being saved but having 'less blessings' ".

Those texts are irrefutable

You talk about "inference poured into John 10:28, a very plainly worded verse.

None of these verses say that salvation can be lost.

does not look that way when you read them.

To be "severed from Christ" is a warning about being outside of God's grace because of sin.

It is about someone who was joined to Christ in the Gospel being "severed from Christ".
"you have fallen from Grace" is about someone who was saved by grace through faith .. falling from grace.

God does not "discipline" the saints by severing them from Christ as if "Severed from Christ" is a form of "salvation".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you just responded to your own claim .. I accidentally included a line in your post.. in my post.

In any case I notice you still don't touch the texts in that much-avoided-list I gave you.

How about this; you pick the verse that you think is the most clear one on losing salvation.

That way we can cut through all the others. Just your fav one.

I've already given you mine; John 10:28. Eternal security couldn't have been stated any more straightforward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those texts are irrefutable

I would say that EVERY text in the Bible is irrefutable. The challenge is to actually understand what they mean.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You talk about "inference poured into John 10:28, a very plainly worded verse.
None of these verses say that salvation can be lost.

does not look that way when you read them.

While you are picking out your most favorite and clear verse on losing salvation, please explain how John 10:28 CANNOT be teaching eternal security.

It is about someone who was joined to Christ in the Gospel being "severed from Christ".
"you have fallen from Grace" is about someone who was saved by grace through faith .. falling from grace.

I didn't disagree. The problem is that you immediately ASSUME that to "fall from grace" means to "lost salvation". It doesn't.

God does not "discipline" the saints by severing them from Christ as if "Severed from Christ" is a form of "salvation".

The verse about being "severed from Christ" is an action done by the believer, not God.

In GAl 5:4, the Greek word is:
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

I have highlighted one of its usage; "separate from".

The parable of the prodigal was separated from his father. What was said to be "dead" or "lost" was fellowship with his father. It wasn't separation in relationship because throughout the parable Jesus called the son a son and the father his father.

You have to understand the difference between relationship and fellowship in order to understand the prodigal.

Relationship is permanent, like a father and son. That relationship cannot be undone.

But, fellowship between father and son CAN be lost, dead, or broken.

And that is the prodigal. He never lost his sonship.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".

It is also a far more weighty matter than warning "the saved that they are in danger of still being saved but having 'less blessings' ".

Those texts are irrefutable

I would say that EVERY text in the Bible is irrefutable.

Well then we do agree on something after all..

While you are picking out your most favorite and clear verse on losing salvation,

Start with the first one in that list - we can work our way down .. one by one. No need to keep waiting to read it.

 

[BobRyan]

You talk about "inference poured into John 10:28, a very plainly worded verse.
.

Agreed. It is a good example of a text that does not say forgiveness cannot be revoked as we see it revoked in Matt 18...

a good example of a text that does not tell us to ignore the Rom 11 warning "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear.. for if God did not spare them neither will He spare you... to you God's kindness IF you continue otherwise you too will be cut off"

None of those texts say "someone overpowered God and snatched the saints out of His hand".

That is not how forgiveness is revoked in Matt 18
That is not how the one in Gal 5:4 "is severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace".

a good example of a text saying -
28 "and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand"

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those texts are irrefutable

It is irrefutable that NO text teaches that salvation can be lost, or that would make Jesus a huge LIAR.

Start with the first one in that list - we can work our way down .. one by one. No need to keep waiting to read it.

I'm not going to waste time on every verse on your list. I want to tackle your very best verse that is most clear to you.

I've already given you the very best verse on eternal security, and all you could is mention something about "inferences".

I want to tackle your best verse, so that will PROVE that none of the others teach what you think.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You talk about "inference poured into John 10:28, a very plainly worded verse.

Agreed. It is a good example of a text that does not say forgiveness cannot be revoked as we see it revoked in Matt 18...

What you seem not to understand is that the verse does NOT say that salvation can be lost.

You ONLY ASSUME that forgiveness can be revoked applies to salvation. That's your error.

a good example of a text that does not tell us to ignore the Rom 11 warning "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear.. for if God did not spare them neither will He spare you... to you God's kindness IF you continue otherwise you too will be cut off"

Are you aware of what the words "cut off" refers to in 1st Century Palestine? It doesn't mean to lose salvation, again ONLY your ASSUMPTION that it does. The passage is about service. The Jews were very proud that they were God's elect people. But they totally failed in their service to Him. So when Jew was told that God would "cut them off", they took that as a warning about losing their status to serve God.

None of those texts say "someone overpowered God and snatched the saints out of His hand".

No one has said they do say or even imply that. However, in John 10:28, it says that "no one" can snatch believers out of His hand. So, no person, or no angel etc can snatch believers out of His hand. Are you a person? Yes. Jesus was actually including the believer himself in that verse. Of course, I doubt that you will agree. But it's clear enough. If you are a person, then the words "no one can snatch..." would include yourself. If you are a person.

That is not how forgiveness is revoked in Matt 18
That is not how the one in Gal 5:4 "is severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace".

I don't know what you are trying to say here.

a good example of a text saying -
28 "and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand"

OK, I already asked if you would explain how this verse does NOT SAY that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Can you do it?

 

[BobRyan]

Start with the first one in that list - we can work our way down .. one by one. No need to keep waiting to read it.

.... still waiting....

 

[BobRyan]

OK, I already asked if you would explain how this verse does NOT SAY that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Can you do it?

I show that it does not say to ignore the texts warning about the loss of forgiveness , the loss of salvation, being severed from Christ etc.

Texts you have yet to take a look at apparently (starting with the first one in the list)

The text you are using relies heavily on extreme inference to get to the point of ignoring the rest of the Bible speaking of "full forgiveness revoked" and being "severed from Christ".

It is like a very rich man who gives the winning lottery ticket worth 1 billion dollars to another man AND with it provides a personal body guard service so that no one can steal that ticket from him before he has the chance to go and redeem it for 1 billion dollars.

But along the way the man given the gift - incinerates the winning ticket thinking to himself "the love of money is the root of all evil.. I choose to keep living my same life".

When he meets the wealthy individual who gave him the ticket the rich man asks "did someone steal that ticket from you?" and the answer is "no". And then he asks "did you not believe that it was a real ticket" and the answer is "no I knew it was real".

==================

Adam and Eve also knew they had eternal life and they also knew that no one could overpower God and steal that from them... and yet here we are today. Failure was "possible" as it turns out, even in the best of circumstances.

 

[FreeGrace2]

.... still waiting....

Matt 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’
34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

The title of ch 18 from v.21 on is; The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

So, it is a parable. Jesus never taught doctrine by parables. All His parables were to teach in a way that those who were uninterested wouldn't understand.

However, even His own disciples had to have His parables explained to them. So using a parable to defend a doctrine fails, since Jesus didn't explain it. Why should I accept your explanation? How do you know what Jesus was teaching?

v.21 - Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Peter was trying to be generous by using seven times (cf. Luke 17:4)! The Babylonian Talmud had three times as the maximum (cf. Amos 1:3, 6; 2:6). Jesus took forgiveness to the new metaphorical height of 7 x 70 (or possibly 77). This does not mean on the 491st time believers do not forgive, but that covenant brothers must always be ready to forgive other covenant brothers (cf. Luke 17:4) as God forgives them (cf. Matt. 18:35). The new covenant has a radically new orientation to life (cf. Matt. 18:15).

v.35 - Forgiveness should/must result in forgiving (cf. Matt. 5:7; 6:14-15; 7:1-2; 10:8; Luke 6:36; Col. 3:13; James 2:13; 5:9). Forgiveness is not the basis of our salvation but a sure evidence of being forgiven. However, Jesus leaves open the question about those who claim to know Him, but refuse to forgive other believers! Parables cannot, do not, answer all the theological questions!

So, there is nothing in this parable about either how to stay saved or lose salvation.

I'm sure this is how all the other verses/texts on your list will go.