Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

It seemed to me like you three were not getting anywhere in your discussion.


A general statement about separation of tares and wheat.


It was not my intent.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The world is a mess. A lot of pain and suffering. We should pray with urgency that Jesus come soon to straighten it all out.

Who are you intimating is evil? Remember, God knows exactly what you meant.

 

[Douggg]

Who are you intimating is evil? Remember, God knows exactly what you meant.

I was talking about a person should set his heart toward God and trust in the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It seemed to me like you three were not getting anywhere in your discussion.

You could say that about almost every discussion on this forum if disagreeing means you're not getting anywhere in the discussion.

A general statement about separation of tares and wheat.

What were you intending to convey with that statement exactly? What is your understanding of who the wheat represent and who the tares represent?

It was not my intent.

Then you're not very good at getting your intentions across. It might help if you would just be more specific instead of making vague comments.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The world is a mess. A lot of pain and suffering. We should pray with urgency that Jesus come soon to straighten it all out.

Is it your impression that I wasn't aware of the state of the world and/or that I don't pray with urgency that Jesus will come to fix it? If so, what is that based on?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I was talking about a person should set his heart toward God and trust in the Lord.

By telling that to me, David and SG, it strongly comes across that you were implying that we weren't doing that. Why say it otherwise?

 

[Douggg]

By telling that to me, David and SG, it strongly comes across that you were implying that we weren't doing that. Why say it otherwise?

Because you were the three person involved in the discussion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because you were the three person involved in the discussion.

Yes, it's quite obvious who was involved in the discussion, but this does not answer the question at all. Why you would tell us that "a person should set his heart toward God and trust in the Lord"? Do you think we don't already know that?

 

[Douggg]

What were you intending to convey with that statement exactly? What is your understanding of who the wheat represent and who the tares represent?

The tares are them who delight in doing evil. The wheat are them who trust in the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The tares are them who delight in doing evil. The wheat are them who trust in the Lord.

That's not very specific. Would you care to elaborate on who exactly are those who delight in doing evil and who are those who trust in the Lord?

Would you say that those who delight in evil include all of the unsaved while those who trust in the Lord include all of the saved?

 

[Douggg]

Yes, it's quite obvious who was involved in the discussion, but this does not answer the question at all. Why you would tell us that "a person should set his heart toward God and trust in the Lord"? Do you think we don't already know that?

It's how God wants us to live.

 

[Douggg]

That's not very specific. Would you care to elaborate on who exactly are those who delight in doing evil and who are those who trust in the Lord?

Would you say that those who delight in evil include all of the unsaved while those who trust in the Lord include all of the saved?

God knows the heart of every person.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It's how God wants us to live.

I asked you if you think we didn't already know that. Yes or no?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

God knows the hearts of every person.

LOL. Of course. How does this answer my question? I asked if you would say that those who delight in evil include all of the unsaved while those who trust in the Lord include all of the saved. Is the question too difficult to answer or is there anything unclear about the question?

 

[Douggg]

LOL. Of course. How does this answer my question? I asked if you would say that those who delight in evil include all of the unsaved while those who trust in the Lord include all of the saved. Is the question too difficult to answer or is there anything unclear about the question?

Why not trust in the Lord to solve all those issues?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why not trust in the Lord to solve all those issues?

In other words, you have no answer to my question.

So, is that what I should say to you regarding every discussion that you're in? No need to discuss the scriptures. Just trust in the Lord to work everything out. They might as well just shut this site down, right Doug? Since there's no point in discussing these things and we should just trust in the Lord to solve all the issues, right?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Why not trust in the Lord to solve all those issues?

Why not practice what you preach?

 

[Timtofly]

Your kingdom is overrun by billions of wicked at the end of your so-called future millennium who surround the camp of the saints for a season led by their super-hero Satan.

Not my kingdom, it is Christ the Prince's kingdom.

 

[jgr]

God knows the hearts of every person.

English tutor:

God knows the heart of every person.

Most persons don't have more than one heart.

Yes, He does.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not my kingdom, it is Christ the Prince's kingdom.

The kingdom you portray is overrun by billions of wicked at the end who surround the camp of the saints for a season led by their super-hero Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

This is basically a general statement that is repeating what the rest of Scripture is saying, telling us: through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Gentiles would no longer be deceived. It is a sweeping statement. It is a generality. Scripture does that often.

You need to see, the Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek ethnos which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ethnos in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

Notwithstanding, the term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to exclusively manifest His glory for thousands of years before the Cross. Incidentally, this differentiation is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favor of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often of used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people. Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from specifically deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

Throughout the Old Testament the prophets repeatedly spoke, and looked forward to, a period in time when the heathenish Gentile nations would eventually accept the glorious Gospel of truth and would therefore graciously receive salvation. Notwithstanding, before this marvelous change would happen, Messiah had to come and defeat Satan, that great deceiver of “the nations,” and consequently forcefully remove him from his previous haughty place of complete deception of the nations.

Matthew 12:17-21 explains how through the person of Christ, and by His First Coming, the Gentile nations would finally believe. He said all this after the religious Jews had just threatened to kill Him. He asserts that it was “spoken by Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 42:1-3), saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] trust.”

Christ’s rejection by his own house (Israel) saw Him turn to the Gentiles and the formerly outcast. He was now going to invade the devil’s house and acquire a spoil. Immediately after the Jews turned on Him in this story He delivers one of Satan’s household – a demon possessed man – thus illustrating that there was a darkened people out there that would come to faith in Christ. He used this man who belonged to the devil’s own house (kingdom) to impress the direction of the Gospel from hereon. Now, my main point is this: this reading expressly declares “in his name shall the Gentiles trust.” Using the Premil argument: all the Gentiles must trust, or this cannot apply today. What I am saying is, if you were to apply this argument namely that the fact that the vast bulk of Gentiles still remain deceived is evidence why we can’t be in the millennium now then we must (if we are consistent) apply the same rule to this statement to show that it can’t be relevant to today. It cannot relate to the here-and-now because the majority of Gentiles still don’t trust God. Of course, that would be preposterous. Such a statement is a general reference to the removal of the veil deceiving the Gentiles as a whole after the cross.

Even Caiaphas, the High Priest, speaking of the elect of God in the nation of Israel, prophesied in John 11:51-52, “that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only (natural Israel), but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad (the Gentiles).”

Calvary is seen to be the event that caused the spiritual merging of the believing Jew and Gentile, and that demolished forever the distinction that separated them. Scripture demolishes the notion that God has two distinct peoples (Jews and Gentiles), which will come to Him in two different ways and in two different time periods. Such is not the case and will not be the case in the future. Notwithstanding, there may undoubtedly be a greater ingathering of Jews in the days preceding the glorious Second Advent than there previously has been since the cross, however, it will be through the sole mechanism ordained of God of God – the Church of Jesus Christ.

In John 12:31-33 Christ assuredly predicted shortly before He defeated the power of Satan at the cross, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. this he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

This passage plainly highlights the powerful victory that was wrought at Calvary and the deep impact that it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Moreover it highlights the significance it had for the whole world. Jesus here plainly predicted the opening of salvation to all nations, saying, “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” Therefore, the glorious life-giving Gospel of Christ that the nation of Israel alone once enjoyed (at the time of this prophecy) would now soon (through the cross) be graciously offered unto, and received by, a previously blinded Gentile world.

The vehicle He would use would be the New Testament Church. Jesus said, in Luke 24:46-47, “thus it behoved Christ to suffer (through the cross), and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations [Gr. ethnos], beginning at Jerusalem.”

Christ had to first suffer and die in order to fulfil Scripture and defeat the awesome global control of Satan over the nations, before the Gentiles could ever enter into the full realization of salvation. The empowerment for the Church came at Pentecost as Christ promised in Acts 1:8. The passage records, “ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” This ‘kicked in’ after Pentecost, after the heavenly power to perform such arrived.

Matthew’s account in Matthew 28:19 says, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [Gr. ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Throughout the OT the prophets spoke of "the nations" or "all nations" coming to God at a particular time. The term were interchangeable with the term strangers / heathen and Gentiles.

The Gospel was now no longer limited to the small nation of Israel but was rather, through Christ, opened up to all the nations. This is revealed in the great commission to the Church, after His resurrection, in Mark 16:15-16, where Christ declared, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Not a single pre-mil would argue against this point of the Gospel going out unhindered, after the Cross.

Not the point of Revelation 20 at all. Revelation 20 is the reality of Satan being bound after his 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13. Amil deny the simple truth that Revelation 20 is future and they fall into the preterist position, that Revelation 20 was already fulfilled in the first century.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 will already have happened before 2 Peter 3:10-12. They are speaking of the same event. Paul indicated that the day of the Lord will bring "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". Peter indicated that the day of the Lord will bring about the burning up of the heavens and the earth. It's not hard to deduce that the "sudden destruction" that Paul wrote about will be by way of fire coming down on the earth. Only doctrinal bias would cause someone to claim that 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are not talking about the same event.

They are, I said the 5th Trumpet happens after the Second Coming. Those two chapters are the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. The 5th Trumpet is after Christ is already on the earth. The earth has been cleansed by fire. Now it is the nitty gritty between Christ and Satan. Matthew 13:37-42. It happens over a period of time, not that Christ snaps His fingers and it is all over.