Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Lazarus Short]

Just like criminals do in this life when they are released from prison.

Bad comparison and almost taunting. Since when did being released from prison change a heart or a mind? Maybe, once in a while.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

While I don't know if all will come to Christ, I certainly can see it happening. No one ever came to Christ already clean. They were made clean afterwards.

Well, you get to choose along a sliding scale, with vague hope on one end and absolute conviction at the other, and various degrees of faith in between. In for a penny, in for the uttermost farthing, I say. Pull out all the stops, that's what Jesus did, and who can stand against in the Day?

We're talking about the power of heaven here. God made everything, including this wonderful flat motionless earth. Is it time for a covenant lawsuit? The mountains and oceans are His witnesses. His handiwork is proclaimed in the skies. The devil's been running interference, which has led many astray. But who makes the touchdown, it's the hound of heaven of course.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Please see my post [#4957] above.

Well if you watched the fellow giving his testimony, you would perhaps glean that the 'old man', the murderer, has been utterly destroyed, burned up in the fire, and the new man in Christ has emerged. Of course only God knows for sure in any given case, but you see that's the concept being conveyed - it's the new wine, new life, restored to God's image etc. And that is the function of the LoF - to change hearts and minds. You say that's just my opinion, well I say it's supported by scripture and countless real life testimonies of sometime chiefs of sinners.

 

[ozso]

Well if you watched the fellow giving his testimony, you would perhaps glean that the 'old man', the murderer, has been utterly destroyed, burned up in the fire, and the new man in Christ has emerged. Of course only God knows for sure in any given case, but you see that's the concept being conveyed - it's the new wine, new life, restored to God's image etc. And that is the function of the LoF - to change hearts and minds. You say that's just my opinion, well I say it's supported by scripture and countless real life testimonies of sometime chiefs of sinners.

When it comes to destruction, I think of how Saul of Tarsus was destroyed, and then restored as Paul the Apostle.

 

[Irkle Berserkle]

You are dancing all around my question with thoughts of sugarplums dancing in your head. When does that marvelous change take place? When and how do people who hate God suddenly turn into God lovers? Or does God override their will and force the change?

I haven't followed the thread closely enough to be sure if you're talking about those who supposedly "convert" after death, but this to me is the absolute in absurdity.

God creates a reality where evil is allowed virtually free rein, gives humans the free will to make moral judgments and choices, and extends salvation (by His own act of self-sacrifice) to those who turn to Him in the exercise of their free will. The Good, the Evil, the Sacrifice and the Choices in this plan are real, not illusory.

WHAT SENSE ON ANY LEVEL does this plan make if God also extends salvation to those who rejected Him when they actually had free will but "convert" when their free will is overridden by His stark reality and the realization they have made the wrong choice and will be separated for all eternity (or annihilated, as the case may be)?

This is the point to me that transcends everything else: Universalism makes a mockery of the entire plan of salvation.

 

[hedrick]

Right, but that's not what is being said(nor is it what I said.) What's being said is that there was a hardening of the nation of Israel itself that temporarily separates the covenant people from national Israel but that one day the national Israel and everything within the original covenant promises will be restored. It's almost certain that it is saying some who persist in rejecting the Messiah are only temporarily hardened, but it does not follow that Paul is rescinding his statement that not all Israel is Israel nor that their being re-grafted in is conditional upon repentance simply that the fullness of Israel as a nation will be restored.

“Fullness” has a nice ambiguity about it. Paul says all.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

When it comes to destruction, I think of how Saul of Tarsus was destroyed, and then restored as Paul the Apostle.

His former life rendered a dunghill.

 

[Hmm]

I don't think I've ever met anyone who really believes in ECT, although I've met many people who believe they have to say they do if they are to be a proper Christian. I think if someone really believed it they would either lack empathy for other people or they would be very traumatised by the idea. The latter nearly happened to me because I was under intense pressure by the first church I ever attended to believe that belief in ECT was mandatory to be a Christian but fortunately I met a more mature Christian who taught me otherwise and so I didn't succumb to what I regard as a blasphemous indoctrination.

A lot.of people think they have to accept that ECT just because they don't believe they can be a Christian without accepting it. But they try not to think about it too closely or allow it to affect them in any way. It's just an unexamined doctrine.

I've read a number of testimonies of people who used to believe in ECT. What's common was that they only way they could accept the doctrine was to tell themselves that they don't understand it but that's just because they are human and it would make sense in the next life. But then often the realisation came that this was intellectual laziness and moral cowardice and they spent some time examining the issue. Annihilationism often seems to be a half-way house on the road to ECT recovery and thence to Christian universalism and the total rejection of God as torturer/tormenter.

 

[ozso]

I haven't followed the thread closely enough to be sure if you're talking about those who supposedly "convert" after death, but this to me is the absolute in absurdity.

God creates a reality where evil is allowed virtually free rein, gives humans the free will to make moral judgments and choices, and extends salvation (by His own act of self-sacrifice) to those who turn to Him in the exercise of their free will. The Good, the Evil, the Sacrifice and the Choices in this plan are real, not illusory.

WHAT SENSE ON ANY LEVEL does this plan make if God also extends salvation to those who rejected Him when they actually had free will but "convert" when their free will is overridden by His stark reality and the realization they have made the wrong choice and will be separated for all eternity (or annihilated, as the case may be)?

This is the point to me that transcends everything else: Universalism makes a mockery of the entire plan of salvation.

If stark reality causes them to change their decision, then what was their original decision based on?

 

[Der Alte]

I haven't followed the thread closely enough to be sure if you're talking about those who supposedly "convert" after death, but this to me is the absolute in absurdity.
God creates a reality where evil is allowed virtually free rein, gives humans the free will to make moral judgments and choices, and extends salvation (by His own act of self-sacrifice) to those who turn to Him in the exercise of their free will. The Good, the Evil, the Sacrifice and the Choices in this plan are real, not illusory.
WHAT SENSE ON ANY LEVEL does this plan make if God also extends salvation to those who rejected Him when they actually had free will but "convert" when their free will is overridden by His stark reality and the realization they have made the wrong choice and will be separated for all eternity (or annihilated, as the case may be)?
This is the point to me that transcends everything else: Universalism makes a mockery of the entire plan of salvation.

Oh I am definitely talking about those unbelievers who, according to UR, suddenly turn into "willing" God loving believers once they have been exposed to the "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
They maintain that everyone down there will willingly transform into believers. I have asked many times how and when this transformation occurs but have never received a cogent response.
I think they are afraid to answer because of the huge gotcha they might get hit with when they do reply.

 

[Der Alte]

“Fullness” has a nice ambiguity about it. Paul says all.

But then Paul very clearly negates that assumed "all."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

 

[Der Alte]

Bad comparison and almost taunting. Since when did being released from prison change a heart or a mind? Maybe, once in a while.

People being released from prison is the only thing in this life I can find to compare to sinners being released from hell.
And OBTW the recidivism rate for US prison is 60+% But according to URists in this forum there is a 100% rehabilitation rate in hell. Supposedly everybody after spending 30 seconds, 30 minutes, 30 hours etc. in the flames somehow become willing lovers of God.
I know that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and there is nothing impossible to Him. But how and when does this transformation occur? Scripture please?

 

[Lazarus Short]

People being released from prison is the only thing in this life I can find to compare to sinners being released from hell.
And OBTW the recidivism rate for US prison is 60+% But according to URists in this forum there is a 100% rehabilitation rate in hell. Supposedly everybody after spending 30 seconds, 30 minutes, 30 hours etc. in the flames somehow become willing lovers of God.
I know that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and there is nothing impossible to Him. But how and when does this transformation occur? Scripture please?[For them not you.]

Why should I reply? I have as much chance with you as you think the "lost" have in "hell."

 

[Der Alte]

Why should I reply? I have as much chance with you as you think the "lost" have in "hell."

Exactly my thoughts about all the UR-ists on this forum. So my posting while directed to those active in this forum, my secondary audience are those who are observers, perhaps thinking about embracing UR or or seeking to leave UR. Either way the seekers can see both sides and can make a more informed decision. And thank you for all your help. I couldn't do it without you.

 

[Fervent]

“Fullness” has a nice ambiguity about it. Paul says all.

Yes, all Israel that is Israel will be redeemed. But not all Israel is Israel, just as Ishmael and the sons of Keturah are not Abraham's heirs.

 

[ozso]

Why should I reply? I have as much chance with you as you think the "lost" have in "hell."

You shouldn't post at all because, "Your biased opinion is meaningless and irrelevant".

 

[Der Alte]

You shouldn't post at all because, "Your biased opinion is meaningless and irrelevant".

Glad you are coming around to my way of thinking. But what I do like is credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence. Not too fond of the unsupported opinions of big name "scholars" e.g. Ilaria Ramelli. If they provide evidence that is another thing.

 

[hedrick]

But then Paul very clearly negates that assumed "all."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

He both says that and that all, at least Jews, will be saved. Your have to take both into account.
The easiest on Rom 11:32 is to assume that all still alive at the end will be saved, so that "all Israel" doesn't refer to all who have ever lived. I'm still not sure that's the right answer, but it's at least possible.

 

[Der Alte]

He both says that and that all, at least Jews, will be saved. Your have to take both into account.
The easiest on Rom 11:32 is to assume that all still alive at the end will be saved, so that "all Israel" doesn't refer to all who have ever lived. I'm still not sure that's the right answer, but it's at least possible.

OTOH I don't think Israelites who are
1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunks, 4. effeminate, 5. emulators, 6. envious, 7. extortionists 8. fornicators, 9. haters, 10. heretics 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lascivious 14. murderers, 15. revelers, 16. revilers 17. seditionists, 18. causing strif, 19. thieves, 20. unclean 21. witchcraft. 22. wrathful get a free ride.

 

[hedrick]

OTOH I don't think Israelites who are
1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunks, 4. effeminate, 5. emulators, 6. envious, 7. extortionists 8. fornicators, 9. haters, 10. heretics 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lascivious 14. murderers, 15. revelers, 16. revilers 17. seditionists, 18. causing strif, 19. thieves, 20. unclean 21. witchcraft. 22. wrathful get a free ride.

If you take what I suggested, Paul thinks there won’t be any by the End, or at least they’ll be repentant. (He can hardly be saying that you have to be perfect to be saved.) I still think that interpretation is questionable, but it’s not impossible.