Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Fervent]

Concerning Origen, I had always heard that he was anathematized because of beliefs that Satan and demons might some day be restored, forgiven...

I have never heard about a "splinter group" writing in Origen's name.

To me, maybe Origen was condemned by a church already corrupt - I never gave much credence to those condemning him

The hypothesis regarding later writers is a bit of speculative history, but it's quickly gaining wide acceptance among patristic scholars because it makes the most sense of the evidence. There's an issue with Origen in that no one in his day seems to accuse him of teaching what he was anathematized for, in fact the charge doesn't come up until about 200 years after his death. The writings he was anathematized for don't appear in any of the collections of his works that have survived(granted, given his ignomious status not much has survived), nor has any codice found had them listed. Exactly what was in those writings is a matter of reconstruction, but given what is written about the anathemas it is clear that the main thrust was the supposed universalism he taught not just that the devil and demons would be restored(though that was possibly the instigating thought). It's becoming increasingly common among scholars of the era to question whether it is something he actually taught, though, because the lack of evidence from his time and the late development of the claim. So someone theorized a later group taking the name of a popular figure and writing in their name to give credence to their own beliefs, which was a pretty common practice since it was difficult to find actual lists of works.

 

[Fervent]

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear [allegiance] - Isa 45:22-23

You have to watch out when you make false accusations, isn't that what the Chief Priest did? Wasn't he, a um, er, Pharisee?

Where is the false accusation? That's clearly a conditional statement. The addition of "every knee shall bow" doesn't make it a promise, because that statement is a statement of military victory. It's an offer that they may turn and be saved, but there is an implicit threat as well.

That's right, I cherry-pick quotes, like God's sworn oaths and covenant promises. They're all actually so qualified and conditioned that only the truly worthy and righteous make it through, right?

Except the "sworn oaths" aren't actually oaths, and the covenant promises are for covenant partners. Not everyone is within the covenant.

Correct, it does God no honour when we read down His express plan to save the world, and portray Him as some psycho mafia don. If most ppl end up in hell, than can He be worthy of the appellations, glorious God of life, love, grace, mercy, justice, goodness, holiness, truth and trustworthiness, the redeemer and restorer, the great physician and maker of all things bright and beautiful..? Plainly NOT.

No one's presenting a psycho mafia don, simply rejecing the toothless doddering old fool who lacks anything resembling justice and instead creates a farce of it.

Now isn't that charitable? The HS is teaching us to confront our own hypocritical self-righteousness.

If God can save a wretch like me, the chief of sinners like Paul, then maybe, just maybe, He might shew mercy unto all, like the still small voice after the wind, fire and rain, like a trickle from the east of the Temple that swells into a torrent and cascades into the Arabah, giving life to all things.

Pretending that all righteousness is self-righteousness is nothing more than absurd. The Bible is quite clear that some are righteous and some are wicked. Righteousness requires we love what God loves and hate what He hates. Ignoring the clear divisions in the Bible between the people of God and genuinely evil beings is not compassionate, nor does it accurately capture the character of God who trods down the proud. It's little more than annuling God's justice.

 

[Gundy22]

Much of what is said of Origen is now seen of dubious report. In Religion class back in college - it was said without dispute that Origen castrated himself. This is now disputed - as is saying that satan might be restored...

ON FIRST PRINCIPLES - I like - whatever "pseudo-Origen" came along 200 years later just gave Origen a bad name.

 

[Hillsage]

Right.
I contend that 3 to 5 seconds in hell, as the Infernalists describe it, would be enough to convert anyone. Anything more than that is sadistic cruelty on the grandest level.

Anyone here perfect? Why not? "EVERY MAN SHALL BE SALTED WITH FIRE/PUR" so did WE ALL miss our 5 sec of the REAL ETERNAL dose? After all, it's the same Greek word PUR for FIRE that their eternal torture HELL FIRE is defined with.

Also, what about all those who missed out on the "he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and FIRE/PUR" and TONGUES too. Seems like a lot of misses in that opportunity to get the Hell burned out of both sides.

When you get perfect, you'll be able to answer your own question as to how much FIRE' is needed....experientially. As for me, I admit I haven't made perfection yet. Thank GOD I don't need to, because MY LORD ATTAINED SINLESS-NESS and perfection for ALL, and then he ATONED imputed righteousness FOR ALL. The orthodox church just hasn't figured that out in the last 1500 years.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

Anyone here perfect? Why not? "every man shall be salted with fire/pur " so did WE ALL miss our 5 sec of the REAL ETERNAL dose? After all, it's the same Greek word PUR for FIRE that their eternal torture HELL FIRE is defined with.

The usual litany of out-of-context rhetoric. Where is it written that unrighteous mankind will be saved by salt or fire? There is no such verse.
Many, many UR proponents quote this verse as if it is an iron clad guarantee for the salvation of all sinful mankind. "You don't have to repent all you have to do is wait to be salted."
Do you even know what salted means?

Leviticus 2:13
13 "Also, be sure to rub every offering from your grain offering with salt. You are not to ever remove the salt of the covenant of your God from your grain offering. Present all your offerings with salt."
Ezekiel 43:23-24
23 After you've finished the cleansing, you are to present a young bull without defect and a ram from the flock without defect.
24 You are to present them in the LORD's presence, and the priests are to throw salt on them and then present them as a burnt offering to the LORD.
Jeremiah 48:9
9 Put salt on Moab for she will surely fall. Her towns will become desolate places, without any inhabitants in them.​

Salt is put on the offering which must already be clean and acceptable for an offering. The salt does NOT make anything pure or acceptable to God..
In fact, salt is used for the downfall, not the, salvation of Moab Jer 48:9

The orthodox church just hasn't figured that out in the last 1500 years

It would appear that the heterodox UR faction hasn't figured out much of anything.

 

[Hillsage]

In my view, it amounts to spiritual extortion. Bow or burn.

Receive the free gift of salvation. If not, you'll be incinerated.
And don't wait. You never know when you might be hit by a passing bus.
Then it will be too late.

When it comes to Salvation;
ACT 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Kind of makes you jealous of DOUBTING THOMAS though, doesn't it? Someone who never had to have FAITH to believe. He just believed when JESUS was standing in the flesh in front of Him. I guess God is "no respecter of persons", but Jesus sure sounds fickle.

My poor dad on the other hand....along with most of my relatives are trusting their faith in 'the church' with roots going all the way back....to Peter. That's how I was raised in orthodoxy anyway, for 19 years. Now I'm just having fun....in a CHARISMATIC church. Even celebrated the biggest pagen holiday of the orthodox year with a Santa Clause one of his elves and 'the Grinch' last week in our church foyer. How is that?

 

[ozso]

The passage is not ambiguous that this is a final judgment, especially when the context in which Jesus was speaking is understood. There is no "depart to an age long chastisement" present within the Bible, in fact no where in the Bible is there a teaching of an "age long chastisement." Such a thing is a pure invention to preserve the notion of universalism, partially based on improper linguistics conflating two related words and treating them as the same word. Bringing things into the text to force them to not contradict when they clearly do is exactly the kind of shoddy hermeneutics I am objecting to, as it is clear that in such a case what the person wants the text to say is more important than what it actually says.

It seems to me that what the person wants the text to say being more important than what it actually says, isn't limited to UR.

 

[hedrick]

The passage is not ambiguous that this is a final judgment, especially when the context in which Jesus was speaking is understood. There is no "depart to an age long chastisement" present within the Bible, in fact no where in the Bible is there a teaching of an "age long chastisement." Such a thing is a pure invention to preserve the notion of universalism, partially based on improper linguistics conflating two related words and treating them as the same word. Bringing things into the text to force them to not contradict when they clearly do is exactly the kind of shoddy hermeneutics I am objecting to, as it is clear that in such a case what the person wants the text to say is more important than what it actually says.

As far as I can tell from my primary lexicon (TDNT) and other scholarly works, "for an age" and "age-long" has no basis, nor does any translation that implies an explicit limit to the length.

However the word is used for things associated with God, e.g. in the LXX for the temple's everlasting doors, which obviously aren't literally eternal. I think you might be able to justify something like "punishment in eternity," or using scholars-speak but maybe more precision, "eschatological punishment." I.e. it's not clear that the phrase is an explicit statement about the length, whether limited or infinite.

Furthermore, similar wording was used by 1st Century Jews about Gehenna. It was in fact eternal in some sense, but people didn't necessarily stay in it eternally.

Given the variety of descriptions he used, I don't believe Jesus ever intended a precise definition of punishments given.

I think I understand why people think punishment is so important, but I don't understand why infinite punishment is important. Since Jesus suggested that we compare God to a father, I'd note that if a father threatens a spanking, his kid will probably take it literally, but if he says "I'll kill you" (short of an extremely abusive father) one would hope he would not. Jesus was certainly known to use hyperbole when talking about consequences, e.g. Mat 5:22, 5:29, etc.

 

[Gundy22]

Is the Earth Eternal? – Megiddo Church.


Question:
How do you harmonize Gen. 8:22, “While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease” (implying that the earth is eternal) with 2 Pet. 3:10, “The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up?”

Answer:
The physical earth is without question eternal. We have the plainest statement of this fact in Ecclesiastes 1:4, that “the earth abides for ever” (see also Ps. 148:4-6).


I thought this was relevant to "how long is eternal" and such.

 

[Der Alte]

As far as I can tell from my primary lexicon (TDNT) and other scholarly works, "for an age" and "age-long" has no basis, nor does any translation that implies an explicit limit to the length.
However the word is used for things associated with God, e.g. in the LXX for the temple's everlasting doors, which obviously aren't literally eternal. I think you might be able to justify something like "punishment in eternity," or using scholars-speak but maybe more precision, "eschatological punishment." I.e. it's not clear that the phrase is an explicit statement about the length, whether limited or infinite.
Furthermore, similar wording was used by 1st Century Jews about Gehenna. It was in fact eternal in some sense, but people didn't necessarily stay in it eternally.
Given the variety of descriptions he used, I don't believe Jesus ever intended a precise definition of punishments given.
I think I understand why people think punishment is so important, but I don't understand why infinite punishment is important. Since Jesus suggested that we compare God to a father, I'd note that if a father threatens a spanking, his kid will probably take it literally, but if he says "I'll kill you" (short of an extremely abusive father) one would hope he would not. Jesus was certainly known to use hyperbole when talking about consequences, e.g. Mat 5:22, 5:29, etc.

Why I think punishment is important because Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

Jesus said the punishment was eternal.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jsus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” and "shall never perish." If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” or "shall never perish “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.[/indent]

 

[hedrick]

Why I think punishment is important because Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

Jesus said the punishment was eternal.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jsus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” and "shall never perish." If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” or "shall never perish “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.[/indent]

I don’t think it’s obvious that the emphasis in eternal life is on infinite duration. Something like life with God may be better. I don’t think it has a time limit, but I’m also not sure eternity is actually unlimited linear time. The phrase needn’t imply any particular model of what life in eternity really is.

 

[Der Alte]

I don’t think it’s obvious that the emphasis in eternal life is on infinite duration. Something like life with God may be better. I don’t think it has a time limit, but I’m also not sure eternity is actually unlimited linear time. The phrase needn’t imply any particular model of what life in eternity really is.

Jesus said that "aionion zoe" i.e. eternal life, means shall never perish, three times.

 

[Gundy22]

Eternity? said Frankie Lee
with a voice as cold as ice
That's right says Judas,
Eternity - though you might call it Paradise
I dont call it anything says Frankie Lee with a smile
Alright says Judas Priest
I'll see you after while

 

[ozso]

Is the Earth Eternal? – Megiddo Church.


Question:
How do you harmonize Gen. 8:22, “While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease” (implying that the earth is eternal) with 2 Pet. 3:10, “The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up?”

Answer:
The physical earth is without question eternal. We have the plainest statement of this fact in Ecclesiastes 1:4, that “the earth abides for ever” (see also Ps. 148:4-6).


I thought this was relevant to "how long is eternal" and such.

2 Peter 3:10-13 tells us that the heavens and earth will be burned up and replaced with a new heaven and earth.

 

[Gundy22]

guess that trumps Ecclesiastes saying earth abides for ever

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Where is the false accusation? That's clearly a conditional statement. The addition of "every knee shall bow" doesn't make it a promise, because that statement is a statement of military victory. It's an offer that they may turn and be saved, but there is an implicit threat as well.

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear [allegiance] - Isa 45:22-23

I don't know how much more plain God could be, let's break it down, shall we?
(a) To all the ends of the earth ie Listen up, y'all!
(b) I've sworn an oath ie This is bankable.
(c) The word won't turn back ie It's gonna happen.
(d) That to me every knee and every tongue will swear ie You'll all convert.

No implicit threats, no offers, no ifs buts or maybes. Just pure absolute unqualified universal promise. That is the total victory of Christ.

Except the "sworn oaths" aren't actually oaths, and the covenant promises are for covenant partners. Not everyone is within the covenant.

Sworn oaths aren't actually oaths! Are you sure? The covenant doesn't say that all nations will be blessed? You might be using a faulty Bible translation.

No one's presenting a psycho mafia don, simply rejecing the toothless doddering old fool who lacks anything resembling justice and instead creates a farce of it.

Like the foolish son who let himself be torn apart and crucified like a common criminal? And are you so sure that you're unworthy of the 'justice' of eternal torment. How will you escape the wrath to come?

Pretending that all righteousness is self-righteousness is nothing more than absurd. The Bible is quite clear that some are righteous and some are wicked. Righteousness requires we love what God loves and hate what He hates. Ignoring the clear divisions in the Bible between the people of God and genuinely evil beings is not compassionate, nor does it accurately capture the character of God who trods down the proud. It's little more than annuling God's justice.

And what does God hate?
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind (Jer 19:5)

But He's willing to consign 90+% of everyone to the eternal disco inferno because His justice demands it - and of course because He loves them.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But then, I'm pretty sure Paul knew, like US , that he "could wish" to go to ORTHODOXY'S ETERNAL HELL, because he read Greek like YLT and knew HELL wasn't really ETERNAL. Not even Jesus paid the price of ORTHODOXY'S ETERNAL HELL. That's because it never was THE PRICE. IF ETERNAL HELL, or ETERNAL DEATH, or ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD was the price, then Jesus "dammed" well should still be paying THAT PRICE.

Well said. It's a classic case of loading men up with burdens that they themselves can't or won't carry. The suffering of Christ and the work of the cross pales into insignificance in comparison with the exquisite tortures of hell dreamt up by fevered minds.

BC, the worst one could expect for transgressing the law was death, or possibly up to a year of purificatory punishment in Gehenna (if one believed the rabbis). AD, the price of disobeying 'love' (eg by secret sins of the heart) is eternal torment.

So God has, by Jesus, universalised the offence and infinitely increased the penalty.

And then offers the hand of salvation.

All too much for me, I'm afraid.

 

[Der Alte]

Well said. It's a classic case of loading men up with burdens that they themselves can't or won't carry. The suffering of Christ and the work of the cross pales into insignificance in comparison with the exquisite tortures of hell dreamt up by fevered minds.
BC, the worst one could expect for transgressing the law was death, or possibly up to a year of purificatory punishment in Gehenna (if one believed the rabbis). AD, the price of disobeying 'love' (eg by secret sins of the heart) is eternal torment.
So God has, by Jesus, universalised the offence and infinitely increased the penalty.
And then offers the hand of salvation.
All too much for me, I'm afraid.

You don't know what you are talking about. You are just irresponsibly spreading unsubstantiated UR propaganda. No zero none, credible, verifiable, historical or any other category of evidence.
¢¢…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs, practices etc. of the ancient Jews,
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the pre-Christian Talmud. Which to date have not been and I am convinced cannot be refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were disposed of.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
And please don't even think about trying to tell me what any of this "really" means.​

 

[hedrick]

You don't know what you are talking about. You are just irresponsibly spreading unsubstantiated UR propaganda. No zero none, credible, verifiable, historical or any other category of evidence.
¢¢…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs, practices etc. of the ancient Jews,
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been and I am convinced cannot be refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were disposed of.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
And please don't even think about trying to tell me what any of this "really" means.​

Sure.for heretics and a small number of others, though it’s not really clear how long the list of exceptions was in Jesus time. But ordinary lawbreakers, either no (Hillel) or a maximum of a year. Even murderers in one version. I think Shrewd Manager isn’t far off.

 

[Der Alte]

Sure.for heretics and a small number of others, though it’s not really clear how long the list of exceptions was in Jesus time. But ordinary lawbreakers, either no (Hillel) or a maximum of a year. Even murderers in one version. I think Shrewd Manager isn’t far off.

Wrong! Read my post again. The fact that some of what you selectively emphasized is correct but that does NOT negate the rest. What you think is not evidence of anything. The quotes I posted say nothing about murderers being spared.