False conversion

[Psalm 27]

Charles Spurgeon once said:

“Another proof of the conquest of a soul for Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs repented of, and his conversion is a fiction.”

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Charles Spurgeon once said:

“Another proof of the conquest of a soul for Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs repented of, and his conversion is a fiction.”

The transformation comes through His Holy Spirit. First things first. One must repent from unbelief to belief. God knows the heart.
Blessings

 

[messianist]

Repentance is granted by Elohim

 

[Psalm 27]

The Danger of False Salvation

(quote)
One of the greatest dangers plaguing the church in our present day is the grandiose number of false conversions. As I read the Bible, I believe the most frightening passage in the Scriptures is found in Matthew 7:21-23 as Jesus warned about false salvation. Jesus said these words:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

What a scene before the judgment throne of God. It’s clear from this text that many people will be surprised upon their death. It’s possible to have a false salvation. In the text of Matthew 7:21-23, the people are pictured as standing before God’s judgment throne and hearing those terrifying words, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” It must be noticed that these people are religious people who did not fall away from grace, but instead, as Jesus made it clear – they were never known by the Lord. Certainly the Lord knew who they were, but the emphasis in the statement is upon intimacy as a child of God. These people were religious, but they were lost in their religion.

 

[messianist]

The Danger of False Salvation

(quote)
One of the greatest dangers plaguing the church in our present day is the grandiose number of false conversions. As I read the Bible, I believe the most frightening passage in the Scriptures is found in Matthew 7:21-23 as Jesus warned about false salvation. Jesus said these words:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

What a scene before the judgment throne of God. It’s clear from this text that many people will be surprised upon their death. It’s possible to have a false salvation. In the text of Matthew 7:21-23, the people are pictured as standing before God’s judgment throne and hearing those terrifying words, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” It must be noticed that these people are religious people who did not fall away from grace, but instead, as Jesus made it clear – they were never known by the Lord. Certainly the Lord knew who they were, but the emphasis in the statement is upon intimacy as a child of God. These people were religious, but they were lost in their religion.

The other one that stands out for me make sure of your calling and election .

 

[Psalm 27]

The other one that stands out for me make sure of your calling and election .

Aaah Yes, like that old "The Lord told me do it" speel...

 

[Danthemailman]

The Danger of False Salvation

(quote)
One of the greatest dangers plaguing the church in our present day is the grandiose number of false conversions. As I read the Bible, I believe the most frightening passage in the Scriptures is found in Matthew 7:21-23 as Jesus warned about false salvation. Jesus said these words:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

What a scene before the judgment throne of God. It’s clear from this text that many people will be surprised upon their death. It’s possible to have a false salvation. In the text of Matthew 7:21-23, the people are pictured as standing before God’s judgment throne and hearing those terrifying words, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” It must be noticed that these people are religious people who did not fall away from grace, but instead, as Jesus made it clear – they were never known by the Lord. Certainly the Lord knew who they were, but the emphasis in the statement is upon intimacy as a child of God. These people were religious, but they were lost in their religion.

Amen! Such people are "religious but not right with God." Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Danger of False Salvation

(quote)
One of the greatest dangers plaguing the church in our present day is the grandiose number of false conversions. As I read the Bible, I believe the most frightening passage in the Scriptures is found in Matthew 7:21-23 as Jesus warned about false salvation. Jesus said these words:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

What a scene before the judgment throne of God. It’s clear from this text that many people will be surprised upon their death. It’s possible to have a false salvation. In the text of Matthew 7:21-23, the people are pictured as standing before God’s judgment throne and hearing those terrifying words, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” It must be noticed that these people are religious people who did not fall away from grace, but instead, as Jesus made it clear – they were never known by the Lord. Certainly the Lord knew who they were, but the emphasis in the statement is upon intimacy as a child of God. These people were religious, but they were lost in their religion.

There are two examples Jesus gives in these verses that are key.

Matthew 7:21 but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Matthew 7:23 ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

First you need to define God’s will in Heaven.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

Same as the New Covenant- God writes His laws in our hearts and minds Jer 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

God personally wrote His holy commandments with His own finger and spoke them to a nation with His own voice. The Ten Commandments was kept inside the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of Holy underneath the Mercy seat of Christ. It is revealed God also has an ark of the covenant in Heaven- so God’s will for us, which is to obey the commandments, is written in our hearts so we should obey out of love John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3 and is written in our minds so we remember to be doers of the Word not just hearers. James 1:22, Revelation 22:14. We do not obey God’s law to be saved, we obey through our faith and because we believe in what God tells us. Revelation 14:12

Great topic and God bless!

 

[Bob S]

There are two examples Jesus gives in these verses that are key.

Matthew 7:21 but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Matthew 7:23 ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

First you need to define God’s will in Heaven.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

Same as the New Covenant- God writes His laws in our hearts and minds Jer 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

God personally wrote His holy commandments with His own finger and spoke them to a nation with His own voice. The Ten Commandments was kept inside the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of Holy underneath the Mercy seat of Christ. It is revealed God also has an ark of the covenant in Heaven- so God’s will for us, which is to obey the commandments, is written in our hearts so we should obey out of love John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3 and is written in our minds so we remember to be doers of the Word not just hearers. James 1:22, Revelation 22:14. We do not obey God’s law to be saved, we obey through our faith and because we believe in what God tells us. Revelation 14:12

Great topic and God bless!

Hi SB, Should Christians be focused on the 10 commandments, the ones that do not tell us to love God and our fellow man or Jesus loving command to love others as He loves us. He gave up His life on a cruel cross the we might have eternal life.

The 10 commandments were the guide and standard for Israel. Jesus standard for Christians is so much higher and we are blessed with the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as our guide. Paul called The 10 commandments the ministry of death. They had no power to save, only convict. The Holy Spirit has the power to bring us to Jesus the living water and to drink of that water and live. Read 2Cor3:6-11

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I

Hi SB, Should Christians be focused on the 10 commandments, the ones that do not tell us to love God and our fellow man or Jesus loving command to love others as He loves us. He gave up His life on a cruel cross the we might have eternal life.

The 10 commandments were the guide and standard for Israel. Jesus standard for Christians is so much higher and we are blessed with the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as our guide. Paul called The 10 commandments the ministry of death. They had no power to save, only convict. The Holy Spirit has the power to bring us to Jesus the living water and to drink of that water and live. Read 2Cor3:6-11

A Christian should be focused on everything God tells us, which of course include the Ten Commandments, personally written by God, stored in the ark of the Covenant in Most Holy of God’s Temple, which is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19 If you do not think this is God’s will, what God personally wrote you might find yourself in the very situation this topic is about when Jesus comes. Matthew 7:21-23. Remember this warning is about people who think they are following God, but are not doing the will of God and are lawless. Sin is breaking the commandments of God 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7. Breaking one is like breaking them all James 2:10-12.

This is another warning that ties into this topic

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Did Jesus keep the commandments of God? John 15:10 Yes, as we should as well. God and Jesus are not at odds with each other and neither is the law. Another warning from Jesus Matthew 5:19

Also, you are wrong about the Ten Commandments not being about love. Your argument does not seems to be with me.

Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. I don’t think its a multiple choice.

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Amen! Such people are "religious but not right with God." Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

You changed the meaning of these verses, not sure if you realized that. The verses in question have nothing to do about trusting in works to be saved, you added that. Here are those scriptures again

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These scriptures are referring to someone who thinks they are following God, but are doing their will over the will of God. They practice lawlessness.

Sin is the transgression of God’s laws. 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and James makes this really clear it is referring to the Ten Commandments written by God James 2:10-12 found in Exodus 20

The warning in Matthew 7:21-23 is we should be doing the will of God and obeying (not being lawless). Why we obey is not what these scriptures are talking about. Only God knows our hearts and will be our judge. These scriptures are not teaching the opposite of what it is saying, that we can be lawless.

God bless

 

[Psalm 27]

When people quote James's 'faith without works is dead' , I think to myself 'works without faith is dead too'.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

When people quote James's 'faith without works is dead' , I think to myself 'works without faith is dead too'.

I am assuming you are addressing this to me since I quoted James. Did I say anything about not having faith? How can you have faith in God, but not do what He asks? According to John, God’s saints keeps the commandments of God and has faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12. Faith and obedience to God go hand in hand. Faith, but not being obedient to God seems like a foundation not built on the Rock.


I’m also very confused by your topic. You seem to be advocating what Jesus is saying and the topic is false conversion, but yet or some reason it seems like you are advocating the opposite of what the scriptures state. Matthew 7:21-23

God bless

 

[Bob S]

I


A Christian should be focused on everything God tells us, which of course include the Ten Commandments, personally written by God, stored in the ark of the Covenant in Most Holy of God’s Temple, which is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19 If you do not think this is God’s will, what God personally wrote you might find yourself in the very situation this topic is about when Jesus comes. Matthew 7:21-23. Remember this warning is about people who think they are following God, but are not doing the will of God and are lawless. Sin is breaking the commandments of God 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7. Breaking one is like breaking them all James 2:10-12.

Well, first of all God didn't tell "us", He told Israel about the 10 commandments. It was Jesus who said He came to fulfil the Law given to only Israel. The Law contained the 10 commandments. You claim that He didn't do what He came to do. Paul claims that He did. 2Cor3:6-11, Eph 2:15, Col 2:16-17, the book of Galatians and many more. If you want to know what the law John was referring then continue to read the remaining verses of chapter 3.

This is another warning that ties into this topic

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

His (Jesus) commands are to love. 1jn3: 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
How could anyone argue against that?

Did Jesus keep the commandments of God? John 15:10 Yes, as we should as well.

That is not true SB. Jesus did not indicate that we are to keep the commands He was subject. We should feel great responsibility for what we write and not overstep our bounds.

God and Jesus are not at odds with each other and neither is the law. Another warning from Jesus Matthew 5:19

You are correct They are one. If Jesus tells us we are to love others as He loves us the Father's blessings are on Jesus command.

Also, you are wrong about the Ten Commandments not being about love. Your argument does not seems to be with me.

Thou shalt nots are about love??? Show us where any of the 10 ask us to love. They were all about duty. We may not feel the need to stop at a stop sign, but out of duty we do. Out of Love for God we don't do anything that displeases Him. Thank God for His forgiveness.

Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. I don’t think its a multiple choice.

I don't either. We are all under the new covenant. The old one has passed. It would seem like some do not agree and feel the need to pick rituals from the covenant that has passed.

I put my full trust in Jesus and the Apostles who told us we are not under the commands Jesus lived under.

 

[Bob S]

I am assuming you are addressing this to me since I quoted James. Did I say anything about not having faith? How can you have faith in God, but not do what He asks? According to John, God’s saints keeps the commandments of God and has faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12. Faith and obedience to God go hand in hand. Faith, but not being obedient to God seems like a foundation not built on the Rock.

So, like some others you have taken the privilege to add a 10 before commands when you know the covenant which contained the 10 commands ended at Calvary. Jesus is God and His new covenant commands are all about our love to God and to our fellow man.

 

[Danthemailman]

When people quote James's 'faith without works is dead' , I think to myself 'works without faith is dead too'.

Good point. Now of course “faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it finally becomes a living faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that its dead.

If someone merely “says-claims” they have faith, but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus did not die so we could continue to sin freely. There would be no point of His great sacrifice if everyone could do what we want.

Jesus came to magnify the law of God (which does not mean to decrease) Isaiah 42:21 and we are shown that the law of God is greater now, not lesser by not only changing our actions but our thoughts from the inside. Murder and Adultry begins in the heart starting with our thoughts (Matthew 5:21-30) but does God want us to literally murder or commit adultery? Where do these laws come from? God’s law Exodus 20 written by the finger of God and came in a covenant of Ten, not nine or eight. Exodus 34:28

The Bible teaches us the devil deceives the whole world, and we can clearly see this by the teaching that you no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments. Just common sense should tell you God does not want us to do the opposite of what He personally wrote on stone and is now written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10

God’s commandments did not end after Jesus died which we clearly see from this verse right before the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (Exodus 20:14) and murderers (Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (Exodus 20:16).

This does not sound like God’s commandments ended. We should teach others to be inside God’s kingdom, not outside!

Love is the fulfillment of the law. We show this though our obedience to the law, not disobedience. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6

God bless

 

[Psalm 27]

I am assuming you are addressing this to me since I quoted James. Did I say anything about not having faith? How can you have faith in God, but not do what He asks? According to John, God’s saints keeps the commandments of God and has faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12. Faith and obedience to God go hand in hand. Faith, but not being obedient to God seems like a foundation not built on the Rock.


I’m also very confused by your topic. You seem to be advocating what Jesus is saying and the topic is false conversion, but yet or some reason it seems like you are advocating the opposite of what the scriptures state. Matthew 7:21-23

God bless

Oh no, sorry. I didnt even see your quote. I was just making the point that religious works aren't the way to salvation-they're a distraction.
My thread idea was a quest to alert people about false conversion, and perhaps find others who know a bit about this concept. I was keen to learn more.
Total depravity, and the need for a saviour springs to mind

 

[Psalm 27]

Good point. Now of course “faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it finally becomes a living faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that its dead.

If someone merely “says-claims” they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Yes, agreed, which is what Spurgeon alluded to in his quote

 

[Psalm 27]

Jesus did not die so we could continue to sin freely. There would be no point of His great sacrifice if everyone could do what we want.

Jesus came to magnify the law of God (which does not mean to decrease) Isaiah 42:21 and we are shown that the law of God is greater now, not lesser by not only changing our actions but our thoughts from the inside. Murder and Adultry begins in the heart starting with our thoughts (Matthew 5:21-30) but does God want us to literally murder or commit adultery? Where do these laws come from? God’s law Exodus 20 written by the finger of God and came in a covenant of Ten, not nine or eight. Exodus 34:28

The Bible teaches us the devil deceives the whole world, and we can clearly see this by the teaching that you no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments. Just common sense should tell you God does not want us to do the opposite of what He personally wrote on stone and is now written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10

God’s commandments did not end after Jesus died which we clearly see from this verse right before the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (Exodus 20:14) and murderers (Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (Exodus 20:16).

This does not sound like God’s commandments ended. We should teach others to be inside God’s kingdom, not outside!

Love is the fulfillment of the law. We show this though our obedience to the law, not disobedience. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6

God bless

God bless you too.