Evidence of miracles.

[Mink61]

L

LOL! Don't worry. I will follow through in a bit. My tablet is stuck with Bing as a search wagon. It can be useless at times.

But I do need to point out once again that you made the laughable choice of the Catholic church as a source. That gives me quite a bit of leeway in choosing a reliable source by your standards.

Well...I'm Catholic. And no, I don't ALWAYS believe or agree with the Catholic Church. However, I DO understand that in general, they're not deliberately trying to mislead us. And I DO find them to be a credible source...MOST of the time.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

How do you know that miracles don't happen every day? Miracles can occur to groups of people, OR they can occur to ONE individual personally. There's no "official" definition of a miracle that states in order for something to be a miracle it must be "officially" recorded as one.

People report their own stories of miracles every day on the internet. There are many prayer sites in which people Thank God for a medical cure...for the restoration of a marriage...for a financial blessing...for a job...a house...a car. Miracles aren't only limited to medical cures.

What makes an occurrence 'miraculous'? are there objective criteria, or is it subjective?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well...I'm Catholic. And no, I don't ALWAYS believe or agree with the Catholic Church. However, I DO understand that in general, they're not deliberately trying to mislead us. And I DO find them to be a credible source...MOST of the time.

Perhaps, but when it comes to miracle claims they are not that reliable. I can name other cases too where the Catholic church is definitely not reliable.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Wait, God gave someone a car?

A house, a car, a marriage, but amputees are out of luck...

 

[Tinker Grey]

Well...I'm Catholic. And no, I don't ALWAYS believe or agree with the Catholic Church. However, I DO understand that in general, they're not deliberately trying to mislead us. And I DO find them to be a credible source...MOST of the time.

All I get from that is that when they agree with you, you agree with them and if not, not.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Some Twain quotes on miracles

MARK TWAIN quotes about "Miracles" | inspringquotes.us

“No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.”
-- David Hume

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Either we have free will 100% of the time, or God controls our thoughts and actions and we are automatons. Which is it?

Whoa...who said that? Can't it be BOTH?

I think the idea is that if we have free will 100% of the time, then God can't be controlling our thoughts and actions at any time (otherwise we would not be acting of our free will at that time).

I'm guessing there's some difference of definitions here, so how would you explain it? how are thoughts & actions freely willed if they're controlled by God?

 

[Mink61]

What makes an occurrence 'miraculous'? are there objective criteria, or is it subjective?

Could be one or the other...or both.

As far as the Church is concerned, they'll put the 'event' through their own strict test(s). But even if the 'event' doesn't pass the Church's 'test(s)', doesn't make necessarily make the event any less of a miracle.

 

[Mink61]

Perhaps, but when it comes to miracle claims they are not that reliable. I can name other cases too where the Catholic church is definitely not reliable.

O.k. I'm sure you can do that. But let me ask you something...

If someone wrote a document, and the document was laden with grammatical errors...is the 'gist' of the document less credible?

 

[Mink61]

A house, a car, a marriage, but amputees are out of luck...

Do you think that ALL amputees think THEY'RE out of luck?

 

[Mink61]

I think the idea is that if we have free will 100% of the time, then God can't be controlling our thoughts and actions at any time (otherwise we would not be acting of our free will at that time).

I'm guessing there's some difference of definitions here, so how would you explain it? how are thoughts & actions freely willed if they're controlled by God?

Who said that they're ALL controlled by God ALL of the time?

I see God's influence like the influence of a 'regular' father. Sometimes a father can TELL you what to do. Sometimes, they 'influence' you into doing something/not doing something. And sometimes, they stand back...and let you learn your own lessons.

Yes, my (Catholic) bible tells me that I have free will. It does NOT tell me that I have free will ALL of time.

Like I mentioned earlier, it's not a question of "either/or".

 

[Subduction Zone]

O.k. I'm sure you can do that. But let me ask you something...

If someone wrote a document, and the document was laden with grammatical errors...is the 'gist' of the document less credible?

It would depend on various claims. Is the claim that the source was well educated? Then yes, it would make the document less credible since a well educated person would not make those sorts of errors.

For example if you get an email from the government loaded with spelling, grammatical, and other errors are you going to believe that the email is genuine? I wouldn't. I would smell scam from a mile away.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you think that ALL amputees think THEY'RE out of luck?

It does not matter what amputees think. The example demonstrated one miracle that appears to be beyond God's power. Why is that?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Could be one or the other...or both.

As far as the Church is concerned, they'll put the 'event' through their own strict test(s). But even if the 'event' doesn't pass the Church's 'test(s)', doesn't make necessarily make the event any less of a miracle.

So what do you think makes an event miraculous rather than just unusual?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Do you think that ALL amputees think THEY'RE out of luck?

I don't know what amputees think. My point is that God is credited with giving people money, houses, cars, etc., but doesn't give them their limbs back.

 

[Astrid]

O.k. I'm sure you can do that. But let me ask you something...

If someone wrote a document, and the document was laden with grammatical errors...is the 'gist' of the document less credible?

If its about how the author is an English professor at Oxford, yes.

 

[Astrid]

Do you think that ALL amputees think THEY'RE out of luck?

Some think they will win the lottery.
But at least there is precedent.
If nobody was known to have ever won,
then hoping is kinda dumb.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Who said that they're ALL controlled by God ALL of the time?

Not me.

I see God's influence like the influence of a 'regular' father. Sometimes a father can TELL you what to do. Sometimes, they 'influence' you into doing something/not doing something. And sometimes, they stand back...and let you learn your own lessons.

Yes, my (Catholic) bible tells me that I have free will. It does NOT tell me that I have free will ALL of time.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

Do you have any idea how often God 'influences' people, or in which kind of situations?

Are people aware that they are not acting of their own free will when God is influencing them? IOW, could they think they're acting of their own free will when they're not?

It seems to me that if people can think they're acting under God's influence when they're not, and if people can think that they're not acting under God's influence when they are, it would be impossible for anyone to know whether God ever influences people to act in ways that are not freely willed, or whether God exerts continual influence so that they never act out of free will.

I'm curious to know where you got this information from; i.e. how you know what you claimed... is it simply an extrapolation of what the bible says, a necessary belief to make your worldview consistent?

 

[Mink61]

It would depend on various claims. Is the claim that the source was well educated? Then yes, it would make the document less credible since a well educated person would not make those sorts of errors.

For example if you get an email from the government loaded with spelling, grammatical, and other errors are you going to believe that the email is genuine? I wouldn't. I would smell scam from a mile away.

O.k. I get what you're saying. But that's not what's happening here. There's so much MORE to 'grammatical errors' that has to do with the truth. Even if the you received an email from some "government official", you might know it's a scam.

But does that mean that EVERYTHING they're saying is a lie?

 

[Subduction Zone]

O.k. I get what you're saying. But that's not what's happening here. There's so much MORE to 'grammatical errors' that has to do with the truth. Even if the you received an email from some "government official", you might know it's a scam.

But does that mean that EVERYTHING they're saying is a lie?

Again, not necessarily. But no one pointing out that miracles do not appear to exist are guilty of your attempted black and white fallacy.