Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

That verse isn't talking about a time after the Second Coming. That's ridiculous. If you actually read 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 carefully and without bias then you would see that the destruction that occurs on the day of His second coming results in the complete destruction of earth (the surface of the earth). So, the verse you quoted is clearly not talking about something that happens after the second coming, but rather before.

Exactly. He doesn't seem to realize that it relates the 5th trumpet which is before the last (7th) trumpet.

 

[Timtofly]

He said all of the dead, including the saved and the lost, will be resurrected on the same day. Just because believers will be raised first doesn't mean unbelievers can't be raised on the same day. Show me where in John 5:28-29 that Jesus talked about two entirely separate resurrection events separated by a long period of time such as 1000 years. He gave no indication of such a thing at all.

Interesting this logic. You actually are claiming that the Cross was the only resurrection. These verses say that is the one and only resurrection, in your interpretative opinion. We already know there has been 1991 years between the Cross and an alledged future resurrection. But yet you claim there can be no other resurrection except the Cross. Do you care to re-examine this opinion? The Cross was the last day resurrection for all OT prophets. They were resurrected from sheol/Abraham's bosom. They were resurrected into physical bodies. They have been enjoying Paradise for 1991 years. So if you decide there can only be one last day resurrection, it was 1991 years ago, and like the Corinthians, you declared all since the Cross have missed it.

I am not even misrepresenting your words or view. John 5 happened prior to the Cross and the end of the OT saints waiting for that resurrection at the end of the age. Are you going to claim the Cross was not the end of the age, and all things have been the same since the beginning of creation?

The Cross changed everything for that OT congregation you accept as the church. Paradise was opened and the age of being like the angels began at the Cross. The veil was torn. No more approaching God in an earthly tabernacle, or temple built of stone. The church was now seated with the Lord in the heavenly temple. Millions have joined that kingdom without observation over the last 1991 years. You claim this has not happened?

What does it mean not to taste death? Wait 1991 years for a new life? You seem to reject a 1000 year period, but declare the end of the OT has had to wait 1991 years for the end of their age to come? Do you think the end of the world has to happen or the end of an age?

If only souls go to heaven, explain why the same souls could not enter Paradise. Explain why Enoch/Elijah, or Moses could have physical bodies from Paradise that showed up on the Mount of Transfiguration? Why did at least 2 times it seems their physical bodies entered Paradise via the air? Explain why Satan never got the physical body of Moses.

You deny both a physical resurrection and the 1000 years. There was a physical resurrection at the time of the Cross and many were seen in Jerusalem. Daniel's body was in Iraq. It would have taken more than 3 days to get to Jerusalem. You think just because many were too far from Jerusalem, they were not also set free from sheol, physically? Why do you think God will not gather physical bodies from the four corners of Paradise at the same time as physical bodies from the four corners of earth?

The dead in Christ are not literally dead. They literally have permanent incorruptible physical bodies enjoying all Paradise has to offer. What all in Christ are waiting for is the glorification event. Putting on the spirit, symbolized as a robe of white. As sons of God we are waiting for Christ to appear, so we will appear just like Christ, soul, body, and spirit. Moses and Elijah had physical bodies on the mount of Transfiguration. But they are still waiting for that spirit. Although some may argue, that Moses' face shone so bright, they had to cover it. Moses was not necessarily punished with Death, but banned from entering earthly Canaan. The biggest conspiracy of the Bible, so much so, even Satan demanded to see the body. Well Peter, James, and John saw a body. Satan was not invited. Do you limit God to your opinion of Scripture that only at one certain time a physical body can be changed in the air, but Enoch and Moses could not have had such a change in the air?

 

[power1]

I see the "short time" of Revelation 12 as being not a literally short amount of time, but the limited amount of time that Satan was given after he was cast out of heaven long ago when Christ ascended there.

So not really a short time then. Why deny you keep saying this?

Satan's time of accusing believers before God came to an end at that time which is why Paul asks in Romans 8:33

No. He accuses us night and day!

Rev 12:10

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So the earth is not burned at this time. Lots of inhabitants. Who is that time of Jacob's trouble largely for? Israel. Who brought forth Jesus? A woman from Israel. Did you think Israel fled into the wilderness at the end of the 1000 years?

The Greek word translated as "short" in Revelation 12:12 doesn't have to refer to a literally small amount. The same word is used here and is translated as "few":

The time of those last days is given six ways from Sunday.

I hope you're enjoying yourself arguing with your straw man here. I never once said that the "short time" referenced in Revelation 12:12 is the same as the "little season" referenced in Revelation 20:3.

? So now those are separate short seasons? Be clear.

I don't need you to tell me what to do. I will continue to save time by using labels to refer to certain beliefs instead of explaining what the beliefs are every time.

You can keep them.

LOL. You must be squirming in your seat. Look at how you are trying to avoid giving me your interpretation of Matthew 13:47-50.

Truth be told I was reading it wrong< I thought you asked about Mat 24:47-50 Looking at that I saw nothing unusual.

Why is it that you won't tell me how you interpret it?
Of course that's what I'm getting at! Why are you denying that all will be judged when He returns when that is exactly what Matthew 13:47-50 indicates?

Guess you were wrong about thinking you get it!

You already acknowledged that Matthew 13:47-50 is talking about something that happens when Jesus returns and then you cited a source that says it happens after the 1000 years. Did you cite a source that you disagree with, which would make no sense, or do you agree with it? Put two and two together (it's talking about something that happens when Jesus returns and after the 1000 years) and you have to conclude that it's talking about something that happens when Jesus returns AFTER the thousand years.

Some things can apply in times earlier than their ultimate fulfillment.

So, what are you going to do with the truth now that it has been taught to you?

You do have a tendency use words that you want to be associated with that mean something else! 1000 years is not really a 1000 years, the truth is your strange doctrines..etc.

 

[power1]

Exactly. He doesn't seem to realize that it relates the 5th trumpet which is before the last (7th) trumpet.

You are both wrong

 

[power1]

But, I'm not claiming that it's a literal 1000 years. It's impossible to get anything through to you. You're in over your head here.

My toes are not even getting wet in your puddle actually. If you say the 1000 years started in Jesus' day, that means they are over. If you were not saying they were not literal what are you saying? (aside from pretending you said it 20 times already)

They exist in the same way the thousand generations mentioned in Deuteronomy 7:9 exist. It is referring to literal generations there, but just not a literal one thousand generations. The word "thousand" is figurative for a large, undefined number.

Let's get this straight then. The 1000 years do exist, but not as a thousand years!? Just whatever you want it to mean. I see.

Do you deny that He has reigned since His resurrection?

Yes. Not on earth as in His kingdom. He will take over one day and rule here. That is not today. Does Biden seem like Jesus to you? Jesus referred to Satan as the Prince of this world.

No, I do not. But, I'm making a point about the wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns which you don't want to address.

I did address that. Yes that is the greatest part of the wrath, when He returns. Before that, though, when all water is turned to blood and etc, that is also wrath. It is all part of the wrath of God in the end.

With all believers being changed at the second coming of Christ and all unbelievers being killed, that does not leave any mortals to populate the earth for a thousand years after His return.

Yes. Plenty. I already showed verses showing there were survivors.

That doesn't say the marriage supper is over at that point, it's saying that it's about to begin.

It does not say that. Show us where you say it says it?

So, give me your scriptural evidence for that then. Peter indicates that the heavens and earth will be burned up upon the arrival of the day of the Lord.

No. Look closer. The day of the Lord is a long time and that bit is after the 1000 years. You conflate the period called the day of the lord with a single day. This you were told many times.

I don't wave away the 1000 years. I see it as an actual time period, but juts not a literal 1000 years.

Ah. So move over God, this poster overrules you! You were wrong to say 1000 years. That millennium is actually anything the poster wants to make it!

How many times do I have to tell you this? And you say the new heavens comes "when that millennium is expired"? Are you forgetting about Satan's little season again which comes after the thousand years?

Not really. Satan is let out to deceive people who surround the camp of the saints. Then they get burned up and the new heavens and earth come. What about it?

I don't care what things may seem like to you. If you're not sure, then ask. In another post, you acted like I stuffed the thousand years into one 24 hour day which is utterly ridiculous and shows your lack of reading comprehension skills.

Not really. Yoiu are not the only poster with weird claims here. There was one saying it all happened in that day Jesus returned if I understood his murky nonsense correctly. If you have another story, fine. I think you waved away the 1000 years as basically not real. You said something about how they started some 2000 years ago! You might aw well claim that the thousand years are actually the wings of a butterfly, or Tinkerbell's slippers!

Yet, you are completely unable to prove that there is a "seven year period at the end". You falsely think that the 70th week represents a seven year period at the end, but it does not. There is no gap in Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

Ah, so one must misunderstand the basic Daniel prophesies also in order to swallow your fairy tales. OK.

Where is your evidence to show that the vials are poured out for seven years? It does not tell us at all how long it takes for the vials to be poured out.

When the last angels sounds, it is done.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That is not saying all will be burned to a crisp! There are kingdoms etc. So that could not be after the 1000 years.

Sure it is. So? It clearly doesn't affect the entire earth like the wrath that will come down on the day Christ returns,

I am not going to nit pick over which parts of the wrath of God are the worst. We are not appointed to any of the final wrath.

Peter and Paul both spoke about total destruction occurring upon the arrival of the day of the Lord.

No. That happen in the day of the Lord. That includes, for the 22nd time, the 1000 years you don't really believe in!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Ah. So move over God, this poster overrules you! You were wrong to say 1000 years. That millennium is actually anything the poster wants to make it!

It looks like you do not have Spirit of Christ to really understand what Christ actually talked about the thousand years here BY COMPARING SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE! We were merely a witness to it and you do not like the Truth because it destroys your literal doctrines. It is NOT literal years. It is spiritual discerned.

Like I said, the numbers ten and it's multiples (100, 1000) often illustrates the Fullness of whatever is in view, without it "necessarily" being the totality. As a practical illustration, Monday would be a full day, but not the totality of the week. Likewise ten would represent the fullness or completeness of that particular day, but not necessarily the totality of the whole week which that day is part of. A perfect Biblical example is the Beast of Revelation chapter 12 and chapter 17, with it's 7 heads and 10 horns. The number seven illustrates the totality or total length of time of Satan's authority (heads) and rule (crowns), while the ten horns illustrates His rule only near the end of the world. For example, as said in Revelation 17, the ten horns had no kingdom as yet (when revelation was written), but is prophesied to reign one hour with the Beast. The ten horns signified the fullness of time (10) that these kings would have power (horns) to reign with the beast. It's called a short season, but it is the fullness of time within the time context of the rule of this Beast! That number ten signifies that fullness of time.

Likewise, the multiples of ten, as ten times ten (100) or ten times one hundred (1000) illustrate the completeness or fulness of whatever is in view, without it necessarily being the totality of it. As an example, look at the parable of the silver money.

Luke 15:8

• "Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?"

Here in the parable of the ten silver pieces, a woman loses one of the ten. She searches for it until she finds it. This is numerical symbolism which shows the believer's search for lost souls representing those who are to be Saved. When we have found what was lost, the batch will be a full or complete treasure. The number ten signified the fullness of believers there. We are the silver which is found by the lighted candle. This is just like the parable of the one hundred (multiple of 10) sheep we read in Luke:

Luke 15:3-5

• "And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
  
  
• What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
  
  
• And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing".

The same principle applies. If we lose one of them, we search till we find it. The fullness of them must be found. The number one hundred there signified the fullness of believers which are shepherded over. Likewise in the multiple of 10x100, it signifies the fulness of whatever is in view. Isaiah chapter seven speaks about the First coming of the Lord (verse 14) and says:

Isaiah 7:23

• "And it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns. With arrows and with bows shall men come hither; because All he land shall become briers and thorns."

Are we to suppose this is a literal number? Were there literally one thousand vines and one thousand silverlings (not 1001 or 999)? When we look at the verse carefully we see that God is using numerical symbiology to signify that where there was the fullness of vines, there will be briers and thorns. The number one thousand is not to alert us to the exact literal number of vines, or the exact literal number of one thousand silverlings (pieces of silver money), rather it is to illustrate where the fullness of vines once were, and where the fullness of treasure was, it is changed to briers and thorns. Not literally every place where one thousand pieces of silver were of one thousand vines were. The word thousand is merely being used to signify a very long time, but not literally a thousand.

Deuteronomy 7:9

• "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

1st Chronicles 16:15

• "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations,"

Psalms 105:8

• "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

This is a thousand used figuratively to illustrate the fullness of time, not literally a thousand generations. His Word is commanded to all generations, not just literally one thousand years. But God is using the number thousand here to show spiritual consistency in representing the fullness. Likewise in Revelation chapter 20, where it speaks of the one thousand year millennial reign of Christ. It is the perfect example of this numerical symbology. It signifies the fullness of time of the reign of Christ, the binding of Satan, and the rest of the dead live not again, before the second Resurrection. Not the totality of time from the beginning, and not literally one thousand years, but the fullness of time between events spoken of there.

Not really. Satan is let out to deceive people who surround the camp of the saints. Then they get burned up and the new heavens and earth come. What about it?

It is the army of false prophets and christs to coming into the camp of the Saints (Churches) where they will be judged by God with fire. Not literal fire. It is a JUDGMENT upon them so they will believe a lie. Read 2nd Thess 2 yourself. It is NOT something they themselves wanted and so called it down upon themselves. They weren't seeking judgment upon themselves, they were seeking converts as they were under STRONG DELUSION in thinking they were doing God a service. It is happening right now with all false prophets and teachers like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Todd Bentley, etc. with their lying doctrines. All of this takes place right BEFORE Christ returns as it is part of the judgment of His unfaithful congregation. Remember the judgment must take place in the House of God before He judges the rest of the world when He comes. The church has to be judged first which is something Christ said that His Elect can "see" the signs of this and depart out to avoid receive the plagues of judgment. Selah!

 

[power1]

It looks like you do not have Spirit of Christ to really understand what Christ actually talked about the thousand years here.

Of course if we had your opinion we would have the 'spirit of Christ' Got it.

Like I said, the numbers ten and it's multiples (100, 1000) often illustrates the Fullness of whatever is in view, without it "necessarily" being the totality. As a practical illustration, Monday would be a full day, but not the totality of the week.

In that time Jesus rules. There are nations. It is a given time, not a parable.

Likewise ten would represent the fullness or completeness of that particular day, but not necessarily the totality of the whole week which that day is part of. A perfect Biblical example is the Beast of Revelation chapter 12 and chapter 17, with it's 7 heads and 10 horns.

Blather

The number seven illustrates the totality or total length of time of Satan's authority (heads) and rule (crowns), while the ten horns illustrates His rule only near the end of the world. For example, as said in Revelation 17, the ten horns had no kingdom as yet (when revelation was written), but is prophesied to reign one hour with the Beast. The ten horns signified the fullness of time (10) that these kings would have power (horns) to reign with the beast. It's called a short season, but it is the fullness of time within the time context of the rule of this Beast! That number ten signifies that fullness of time.

Likewise, the multiples of ten, as ten times ten (100) or ten times one hundred (1000) illustrate the completeness or fulness of whatever is in view, without it necessarily being the totality of it. As an example, look at the parable of the silver money.


Luke 15:8

• "Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?"

• Or, are you sitting down? In the parable someone actually had ten pieces of silver as unbelievable as that may seem to you.

Her

e in the parable of the ten silver pieces, a woman loses one of the ten. She searches for it until she finds it. This is numerical symbolism which shows the believer's search for lost souls representing those who are to be Saved. When we have found what was lost, the batch will be a full or complete treasure. The number ten signified the fullness of believers there. We are the silver which is found by the lighted candle. This is just like the parable of the one hundred (multiple of 10) sheep we read in Luke:

Except you made that up.

Luke 15:3-5

• "And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
  
  
• What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
  
  
• And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing".

The same principle applies. If we lose one of them, we search till we find it. The fullness of them must be found. The number one hundred there signified the fullness of believers which are shepherded over.

Or, in a parable some shepherd had a flock of a hundred sheep. Why would anyone need your invented additions that really are boring and don't resonate with me as truth or interesting?

Are we to suppose this is a literal number? Were there literally one thousand vines and one thousand silverlings (not 1001 or 999)? When we look at the verse carefully we see that God is using numerical symbiology to signify that where there was the fullness of vines, there will be briers and thorns.

Why, can't He count?? We need you to correct His fumbling?

The number one thousand is not to alert us to the exact literal number of vines, or the exact literal number of one thousand silverlings (pieces of silver money), rather it is to illustrate where the fullness of vines once were, and where the fullness of treasure was, it is changed to briers and thorns. Not literally every place where one thousand pieces of silver were of one thousand vines were. The word thousand is merely being used to signify a very long time, but not literally a thousand.

Except you were not there so have not the slightest clue what you are talking about.

Deuteronomy 7:9

• "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

So? You doubt that?

This is a thousand used figuratively to illustrate the fullness of time, not literally a thousand generations.

Says who? Why not both?

It is the army of false prophets and christs to coming into the camp of the Saints (Churches) where they will be judged by God with fire. Not literal fire.

Ah, so you wave that away also. No surprise, add it to the list.

It is a JUDGMENT upon them so they will believe a lie.

That was not mentioned, however surrounding the camp of the saints is mentioned.

It is happening right now--

I guess you think that is serious debating. I don't.

By the way, the flood event was in a certain time. So many months and etc. Should we wave that away also?

 

[Guojing]

Of course if we had your opinion we would have the 'spirit of Christ' Got it.

Nice one! =)

 

[TribulationSigns]

I guess you think that is serious debating. I don't.

As Sovergeingrace and SpiritualJew noted, the sarcastic tones, one-liners, back and forth accusations, unteachable spirit, disregard for the truth has become your M.O. here. I am sorry that you has refused to receive the truth since you do not seem to allow a honest debate here and making mockery of our testimony that comes with God's Word.

 

[power1]

As Sovergeingrace and SpiritualJew noted, the sarcastic tones, one-liners, back and forth accusations, unteachable spirit, disregard for the truth has become your M.O. here. I am sorry that you has refused to receive the truth since you do not seem to allow a honest debate here and making mockery of our testimony that comes with God's Word.

So sore loser with no real substance that can be defended. OK. I do not accept disbelief in basics of Scripture to be some 'testimony'. Sorry. You can wave away the thousands years and the rest of the bible if you like. Call it what it is.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So sore loser with no real substance that can be defended. OK

This is the TYPICAL response to Saints who bears Scripture references that illustrate vividly that what many are saying is true, and that bears witness to what other are saying is not true. Typical equals "There is nothing new under the sun."

Luk 21:15

• For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
  

When I say something Scripture says, it's difficult for some professing Christians, like you, to resist it rationally. The mouth and wisdom is the witness of the unadulterated word of God, which you seem to find so distressing, offensive and cruel. Thus to gainsay (speak against) it would be to deny God's Word, and so you don't really respond to the Scriptures I give at all. You can't speak-against it (gainsay) so you set your sights on SOMETHING ELSE like personal attack and ad nauseum. You basically ignore God's word that we quoted because you have no real fear of God that you would reverence it.

Proverbs 1:7-8

• "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
• My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:"

It is not surprising that this persecution and hate of the faithful servants of God prophesied by Christ in Luke, Matthew and Mark (among other places), takes place all throughout the New Covenant Period including this forum today. So I ask you again, which Scripture do you find offended that you should response by refuting with Scripture, not personal attack or being a fool.

 

[DavidPT]

Easy. When He comes there will no longer be nations fighting Him for long. Or killing His people. Or crossing the Euphrates. Or raping women in Israel,or an AntiChrist. Or waters turned to blood! Or hundred pound hailstones! etc etc.

As to the day of the Lord, you think the rapture happens first, followed by the trib, and that the day of Lord begins during the trib, would that basically be correct?

The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. I don't see it making sense that the day of the Lord would need to come like a thief in the night during the trib. That would mean during the trib the heaven and earth passes away, whatever that might look like, since that is exactly what 2 Peter 3 says.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

How can this be describing the trib?

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are both wrong

Please address the numerous posts above that expose Pretrib and stop diverting. This is why Pretrib is on the ropes today. You are doing more to promote Amil by your avoidance.

 

[sovereigngrace]

As to the day of the Lord, you think the rapture happens first, followed by the trib, and that the day of Lord begins during the trib, would that basically be correct?

The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. I don't see it making sense that the day of the Lord would need to come like a thief in the night during the trib. That would mean during the trib the heaven and earth passes away, whatever that might look like, since that is exactly what 2 Peter 3 says.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

How can this be describing the trib?

Premils cannot take these texts literally, as to do so would totally demolish their doctrine.

 

[power1]

This is the TYPICAL response to Saints who bears Scripture references that illustrate vividly that what many are saying is true, and that bears witness to what other are saying is not true. Typical equals "There is nothing new under the sun."

Luk 21:15

• For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

When I say something Scripture says, it's difficult for some professing Christians, like you, to resist it rationally. The mouth and wisdom is the witness of the unadulterated word of God, which you seem to find so distressing, offensive and cruel. Thus to gainsay (speak against) it would be to deny God's Word, and so you don't really respond to the Scriptures I give at all. You can't speak-against it (gainsay) so you set your sights on SOMETHING ELSE like personal attack and ad nauseum. You basically ignore God's word that we quoted because you have no real fear of God that you would reverence it.

Proverbs 1:7-8

• "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
• My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:"

It is not surprising that this persecution and hate of the faithful servants of God prophesied by Christ in Luke, Matthew and Mark (among other places), takes place all throughout the New Covenant Period including this forum today. So I ask you again, which Scripture do you find offended that you should response by refuting with Scripture, not personal attack or being a fool.

Still nothing eh?

 

[power1]

As to the day of the Lord, you think the rapture happens first, followed by the trib, and that the day of Lord begins during the trib, would that basically be correct?

I would have to look into when exactly the official start of that 'day of the Lord' was. But that sounds maybe about right or close.

The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. I don't see it making sense that the day of the Lord would need to come like a thief in the night during the trib. That would mean during the trib the heaven and earth passes away, whatever that might look like, since that is exactly what 2 Peter 3 says.

If that is the Rapture, then of course that is a surprise to all. Can we go with that?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

How can this be describing the trib?

Easy. All we need to know is how prophesy works. When Jesus read the prophesy about Him coming to set the prisoners at liberty and etc, He stopped mid passage. Remember? Why? Because only that first part of this prophesy applied to His first coming, the rest was about the second coming!

So, for your verses, the thief in the night thing seems to be about the Rapture. Then in Peter, we see it again, the first part about the Rapture. Then it launched forward to a different part of that day of the Lord, the end! When the new heavens and earth come. Seems simple to me.

 

[power1]

Please address the numerous posts above that expose Pretrib and stop diverting. This is why Pretrib is on the ropes today. You are doing more to promote Amil by your avoidance.

No idea what you are talking about. I would not call your waving away the reign of Christ for 1000 years being on the ropes. It is more like being under a train.

 

[Timtofly]

What kind of question is this? Do you not think that the thousand years will end? I'm sure you do since it clearly says so. And that was all I was saying. That does not mean I'm saying Christ's reign ends at that time. Satan's binding is what ends at that point, not Christ's reign.

When have I claimed that? Do you just randomly make stuff up off the top of your head when you post?

Plenty of Premils believe that. Don't try to speak for all Premils when you have so many beliefs that are unique to yourself.

Show me where scripture teaches this then. You're all talk and no scripture. I don't know how you guys think that I'm going to take you seriously when you don't ever back up your opinions with scripture. You think your opinions alone are going to convince me of anything? Think again.

If you are clear that the 1000 year reign does have an end, then your intra-Advent is the end of your reign as well.

If you would at least address the points instead of attacking me, we could get somewhere.

Since the 1000 years is not the limit of Christ's reign, then your projection that the 1000 years is not possible after the Second Coming falls flat.

Your intra-Advent has the earth being handed back to God as a burnt crisp. What has really been accomplished?

 

[Timtofly]

Why wouldn't it be at the same time? What is different between giving an account of yourself regarding what you've done and what is described in Matthew 25:31-46?

No one gave an account here. God chose them. God gave them the reason He chose them. They had to ask, because it was never a conscious decision in the first place.

Do they even have a choice in the matter? This is not a reward for doing good. This is God choosing people for a particular purpose whether they agreed or not. This is their judgment, not that they asked to be born from above. There is nothing in their lives that indicated they were saved by faith. They did not even know God.

Many today know about a God. Not very many actually know God. There is no indication whatsoever by Jesus in this account, that they repented of their sins. Do you need verses that state that is necessary to be born into God's family, and what happens if one does not make that conscious decision? I gave a verse that stated even the sheep go astray. So they are called sheep in this future judgment because they were chosen by God and became sheep, not that they chose God to be a sheep.

 

[Timtofly]

You apparently have never read the following verse?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

So, whatever Revelation 20:4 is talking about when it says judgment was given unto them, it's not talking about them judging people and giving them eternal sentences. Only Jesus will do that and all will be judged at the same time. As it says in Acts 17:31, God has set one day to judge the world "by that man whom he hath ordained". Not two or more.

That is right. The Cross was the day of judgment for the whole world.

The GWT is the dead standing before God, not to be judged by God. They will condemn their own selves and continue to reject the Atonement, and end up in the Lake of Fire.

So are you also wrong in calling the GWT that one final judgment? You called it, not me. If the Father does not judge, then you cannot claim the GWT as that final day of judgment either.

There are many verses pointing out the church will sit in judgment over the world. Even the 24 elders in the book of Revelation represent the church of all time. More than likely the 12 sons of Jacob, and the 12 disciples. According to your own church definition, these are the redeemed from earth from both the OT and the NT. I am not saying that is exactly who they are. Just pointing out 12 representatives from the OT, and 12 representatives from the NT. I never said there were billions of thrones set up. Are you going to argue there was just one, when the word is plural? The sheep of Matthew 25 were already judged. They are there because that is their designated reason they were chosen. To rule as priest during the 1000 years. So Revelation 20:4 only includes those beheaded during the prior 42 months needing judgment. They are judged, because they refused the Atonement of the Cross, but they did get there by an act of faith, they chose to have their head chopped off, instead of accepting the mark of the beast.