Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[power1]

I don't. Show me exactly where I ever said otherwise. Both Premils and Amils believe that the dead are raised after the 1000 years (and after Satan's little season),

You use the same words but inside your head they mean something diametrically opposed to what the bible says. Example you just admitted last post that you confused the Tribulation when Satan is cast down, with the end of the 1000 years when he is let out of the pit for a bit.

but Amils believe

I don't use those terms and do not want to start using them, thanks.

Christ returns after the 1000 years

That is false.

while Premils like yourself believe He returns before the 1000 years.

Basically I see it a a matter of belief in Scripture or not.

Also, Amils believe that all of the dead, saved and lost, will be raised after the 1000 years, while Premils typically believe that only the unsaved dead will be raised after the 1000 years.

Using what verse as support?

Look how you are. I asked you how you interpret Matthew 13:47-50. And this is your response? Should I take this to mean that you don't know how to interpret that passage? If you don't, then just say so. If you do, then please tell me how you interpret it.

Not sure what is any issue or question in those few verses?

In general, Mat 24 does tell us about how Jesus returns after the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So what exactly is some mystery?

 

[power1]

I do not. I believe He reigns at the right hand of the Father in heaven as passages like Ephesians 1:19-22 indicate and I believe that the thousand years is a figurative representation of the New Testament time period that began with the resurrection of Christ.

So you do not believe in the 1000 years period. Fine. If it was 1000 years it would be long over if it started 2021 years ago.

The term "thousand" is used figuratively in scripture a number of times. Here are a couple of examples:

No.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Yes there is thousands of generations. Not yet. But they will come.

This is clearly not referring to a literal thousand generations. Obviously, there is no limit to the number of generations that God keeps His covenant "with them that love him and keep his commandments".

No. That will be forever!

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Again, this is clearly figurative language being used here. It's not as if only the cattle on a thousand hills belongs to God, but the rest don't.

No. Look at a globe sometime. It is a big world and there are more than thousands of hills! What, you though He meant just in Bethlehem or some place?

Your waving away the 1000 years of Christ's rule on earth after He returns is without support!

You shouldn't assume anything. I've been telling you what I believe all along. I don't think you're paying close enough attention. It might help you if you took a little time to read up on what Amillennialists believe, so you don't have to keep asking me these questions over and over again.

I told you, I don't use those terms and do not care what anyone believes who does. I have the bible.

What seven years are you referring to exactly? Show me with scripture.

In Daniel 9 it shows there is a last week of years in the very end, before everlasting righteouness in brought in. In other passages, we see that half of that seven years is known as the Great Tribulation and that is given in days and months, etc.

Also, if you're thinking that I was equating the "short time" of Revelation 12 with the "little season" of Revelation 20, I was not. I do not equate those two. I was just telling you how to tell the difference.

Thank heaven!

The phrases "little season" and "short time" are obviously different, so if someone references Satan's little season they are talking about Revelation 20. Is this too hard for you to understand?

Nothing is hard to understand. What is hard is getting some people to stop wasting our time tip toeing through the tulips and picking daisies, and spamming coloured verses wothout clearly stating what they are trying to say! It should take just a sentence or two.

 

[DavidPT]

The wrath of God is always upon the wicked (and all wickedness). It is never upon the righteous. If there is a post-second coming seven-year great tribulation, as commonly described by Pretribbers, then the wrath of God is undoubtedly upon the righteous tribulation saints.

Pretribulationists get confused in that they relate the wrath of God, which will be poured out on the day of His wrath (the second coming), to a supposed end-time seven-year tribulation period. Posttribulationists, on the other hand, believe that the wrath of God is continually upon the wicked but that the Church will escape the final “day of his wrath” at the appearing of Christ at the Second coming (after the Church has been rescued).

That is not a reality that is restricted to a supposed end-time period prior to the second coming of the Lord but has been an ongoing reality from the beginning. Nahum 1:2 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.”

Colossians 3:6 says, “the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”

Ephesians 5:5-6 says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Romans 5:9-10 says, “being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 says, “For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

As Paul says in Romans 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”

God will therefore recompense the deeds of the wicked on that final day when true, just and holy justice will be finally realized.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says, “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Q. How can the wrath of God be upon the righteous tribulation Jews or tribulation saints when Scripture clearly says it isn’t?

I don't disagree with any of your arguments against Pretrib. But Pretrib aside, how can any of the vials of wrath already be being poured out before the day of the Lord begins first? That's the question we need to be asking ourselves, regardless that we might be Post Trib.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


These verses make it clear, that when they are saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, meaning the day of the Lord in verse 2.

With that in mind let's now look at the following.

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


How is remotely reasonable that if any of the vials of wrath are already being poured out before the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night, that anyone could be saying peace and safety at the time? Look what Revelation 15:1 says--for in them is filled up the wrath of God. How can anyone possibly feel peace and safety during any of that?

Those who think the first trumpet and the first vial parallel one another, and the same for the 2nd trumpet and 2nd vial, so on and so so, are clearly wrong, or we have to assume Paul is the one clearly wrong instead. He's the one claiming they will be saying peace and safety when the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. No one would be saying peace and safety while the vials of wrath are being poured out on them. No sane person would.

 

[power1]

How do you think that your failure to present the basics of your doctrine advances your cause or looks to all watching on? The burden of proof is with you.

For what? I say what I mean clearly. If someone prances around waving away a key section of prophesy like the simple 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, no one has any burden to even talk to them. It is like someone saying the tooth fairy is real and we have some burden to prove it is not!

Amils have presented numerous passages to prove a general resurrection/judgment when Jesus comes

No. They have shown they are confused and try to lump centuries of events into a single day.

God has always protected His children and maintained a witness.

He promises to protect some in the Tribulation wrath of God. However He also promises we are not appointed to wrath, so we are protected from anything that happens on earth. He did not promise to protect all the new believers in that time completely. In fact many many many of them are beheaded and killed, and flee etc.

· God did not destroy His elect when the flood came. He preserved them in an ark.

We also go up above the world when that wrath of God comes.

· God did not destroy a lot when he punished Sodom. He delivered him to a safe place and then destroy the wicked.

We are spared also!
That time will be unlike any time ever known on earth. It is the wrath of God poured out on the wicked.

 

[power1]

How is remotely reasonable that if any of the vials of wrath are already being poured out before the day of the Lord comes....

Easy. When He comes there will no longer be nations fighting Him for long. Or killing His people. Or crossing the Euphrates. Or raping women in Israel,or an AntiChrist. Or waters turned to blood! Or hundred pound hailstones! etc etc.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't disagree with any of your arguments against Pretrib. But Pretrib aside, how can any of the vials of wrath already be being poured out before the day of the Lord begins first? That's the question we need to be asking ourselves, regardless that we might be Post Trib.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


These verses make it clear, that when they are saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, meaning the day of the Lord in verse 2.

With that in mind let's now look at the following.

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


How is remotely reasonable that if any of the vials of wrath are already being poured out before the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night, that anyone could be saying peace and safety at the time? Look what Revelation 15:1 says--for in them is filled up the wrath of God. How can anyone possibly feel peace and safety during any of that?

Those who think the first trumpet and the first vial parallel one another, and the same for the 2nd trumpet and 2nd vial, so on and so so, are clearly wrong, or we have to assume Paul is the one clearly wrong instead. He's the one claiming they will be saying peace and safety when the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. No one would be saying peace and safety while the vials of wrath are being poured out on them. No sane person would.

Wrath is God’s punishment on the wicked. Tribulation is the devil’s punishment upon the Church.

God has always protected His people in the midst of judgment. We can literally see that from Genesis to Revelation. Pretribbers point to the judgment that is poured out on this earth in Revelation and struggle to accept that the Church could be present through such a period. However, they forget two important things. First, Revelation is covered in apocalyptic symbolism, and second, the plagues and judgments are remarkably similar to those poured out by God on Egypt when the children of Israel inhabited the land. None of God’s wrath touched His children.

The question is: did it directly affect Israel? The answer is no. Israel was not taken out of Egypt but actually preserved in it. This would tend to support the Posttrib position that similarly argues that the Church will not be taken out of this world during judgment but preserved in it from it. Both in the Old and New Testament we see God’s preservation of His people despite severe persecution.

Before God destroyed Jericho, He first promised and ensured that Rahab and her family were protected in the midst of God’s judgment.

Psalm 37:28 tells us: “For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.”

2 Peter 2:9: “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

God has always protected His people when He poured out His wrath. Why would He not do the same in our case? The tribulation period is about the wrath of Satan/antichrist. Yes. God always preserves His people in times of hardship. Revelation is an extremely figurative book. It is saturated in symbolism. I believe these are symbolic plagues (lent from Israel's experience in Egypt when God poured out literal plagues in His wrath on the enemy) to impress the truth and reality of God's preservation for us today.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

OK, so you believe in a literal 1000 years reign after He returns?

No, I do not and I've already told you that before. Are you even trying or are you purposely acting like you don't know what I believe even after I've told you several times now? You clearly are not reading my posts carefully. I've told you that I'm an Amillennialist more than once. Amils believe that He returns AFTER the thousand years (and after Satan's little season).

What does that mean if you are so clear? Is it actually 1000 years or not? Yes or no?

Not a literal 1000 years. I'm an Amillennialist. I believe the thousand years is a figurative representation of the time period since Christ's resurrection up until a little season when Satan is loosed to wreak havoc in the world without restraint.

Why are you so ignorant about what others believe? Do yourself a favor and do some research on that, so that you stop making a fool of yourself.

The Rapture I refer to is the one before the return of Jesus to the earth with His saints.

That version of the Rapture doesn't exist. Scripture teaches that He will descend from heaven once and when He does believers will all be caught up to meet Him in the air while unbelievers are all killed by the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

When Scripture talks about Jesus coming with His saints, it's talking about Him coming with the souls of the dead in Christ. Their souls are then united with their changed, immortal bodies. Then they, along with those who are alive and remain until His return are caught up to meet Christ in the air.

As Peter indicates in 2 Peter 3:10-12, the earth is burned up at that time. So, we don't turn around and come back to earth at that point nor are we taken to heaven. The judgment occurs after that and then we inherit the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Don't think you get to just say the word rapture and have people think you believe in it.

LOL. The rapture is simply a reference to the church, including the dead in Christ and those who are still alive when He comes, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. I certainly believe that will happen. A vast majority of us here believe it will happen.

Your accusations are what is false.

Name one false accusation that I've made.

You do the same with the wrath of God in the Tribulation, do you not? You simply use the word wrath and try to make it only apply after!

Scripture speaks of different types of tribulation. Some has to do with persecution from our enemies and some has to do with God's wrath. You never define what exactly your version of "the Tribulation" is. When exactly will it begin and how long will it last. Can you answer that and use scripture to back it up?

What you don't acknowledge is that the wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns will burn up the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) which Paul describes as "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". What mortals can survive that to populate a kingdom on earth for 1000 years?

Who did you think you were fooling?
Run along

I must be talking to a child here. You're incredibly immature.

 

[sovereigngrace]

For what? I say what I mean clearly. If someone prances around waving away a key section of prophesy like the simple 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, no one has any burden to even talk to them. It is like someone saying the tooth fairy is real and we have some burden to prove it is not!
No. They have shown they are confused and try to lump centuries of events into a single day.

He promises to protect some in the Tribulation wrath of God. However He also promises we are not appointed to wrath, so we are protected from anything that happens on earth. He did not promise to protect all the new believers in that time completely. In fact many many many of them are beheaded and killed, and flee etc.
We also go up above the world when that wrath of God comes.


We are spared also!
That time will be unlike any time ever known on earth. It is the wrath of God poured out on the wicked.

Like Spiritual Jew ably highlighted, it is so hard debating with someone who doesn't even know their own doctrine, never mind Amil. It seems clear to everyone debating with you that you have no Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. That is the end of the debate. Check mate! What you advance is therefore extra-biblical. It is pointless debating with someone who simply wants us to accept their mere personal opinions. That is what we are getting by engaging with you.

If you knew what Amil believes, you would realize that Amil believes the thousand years and Satan's little season represent real time periods during the intra-Advent period.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So you do not believe in the 1000 years period. Fine. If it was 1000 years it would be long over if it started 2021 years ago.

I believe it represents an actual time period that began with the resurrection of Christ, but I don't believe it's a literal 1000 years.

No.
Yes there is thousands of generations. Not yet. But they will come.

It doesn't say "thousands of generations", it says "a thousand generations". Slow down and read what it actually says instead of making assumptions beforehand.

No. That will be forever!
No. Look at a globe sometime. It is a big world and there are more than thousands of hills! What, you though He meant just in Bethlehem or some place?

You are even more ignorant than I thought. You are unbelievably clueless. You are completely missing the point, which is that the term "thousand" in Psalm 50:10 is used figuratively and not literally. Do you think God only owns the cattle on a thousand hills and not the cattle on the rest of the hills?

Your waving away the 1000 years of Christ's rule on earth after He returns is without support!

Oh, really? Then tell me how you interpret the following passage and how do you reconcile it with your understanding of the thousand years?

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Where does the thousand years fit in this? It talks about scoffers scoffing at the promise of Christ's second coming and then indicates that the Lord is not slow in keeping His promise and then indicates that the earth will be burned up and we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth as a result of the promise of Christ's second coming. That means the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at His second coming. If you disagree, then explain why using the text in 2 Peter 3 to support your reasoning.

I told you, I don't use those terms and do not care what anyone believes who does. I have the bible.
In Daniel 9 it shows there is a last week of years in the very end, before everlasting righteouness in brought in. In other passages, we see that half of that seven years is known as the Great Tribulation and that is given in days and months, etc.

That's what you've apparently been taught, but that doesn't make any sense. How exactly will everlasting righteousness be brought in at Christ's return if sin and death continue on after that, which is what you believe?

Nothing is hard to understand. What is hard is getting some people to stop wasting our time tip toeing through the tulips and picking daisies, and spamming coloured verses wothout clearly stating what they are trying to say! It should take just a sentence or two.

No one else here on this entire forum has such trouble understanding what we're saying. That says something about you.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You use the same words but inside your head they mean something diametrically opposed to what the bible says. Example you just admitted last post that you confused the Tribulation when Satan is cast down, with the end of the 1000 years when he is let out of the pit for a bit.

No, I did not. I did just the opposite. I told you that I don't equate the "short time" of Revelation 12 with the "little season" of Revelation 20. Stop making false accusations like this.

I don't use those terms and do not want to start using them, thanks.

Why are you so childish? There's nothing wrong with using certain terms to describe what someone believes. So, instead of referring to "Amils" (Amillennialists), you want me to refer to "those who believe the thousand years precedes the return of Christ" every time I refer to them? Ridiculous.

That is false.

How can I argue with that? You made such a watertight argument there.

Using what verse as support?

For reference, I had said "Amils believe that all of the dead, saved and lost, will be raised after the 1000 years, while Premils typically believe that only the unsaved dead will be raised after the 1000 years.". So, my answer to your question is that Amils use passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Acts 17:31 to support our belief that there is only one judgment day and one day that all people are resurrected rather than multiple days of judgment and multiple resurrection days.

Not sure what is any issue or question in those few verses?

I'm simply asking you to tell me how you interpret Matthew 13:47-50? And you don't seem to want to do so. Why is that?

In general, Mat 24 does tell us about how Jesus returns after the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So what exactly is some mystery?

Why are you avoiding telling me how you interpret Matthew 13:47-50 then? Am I asking too much? Does that passage not indicate that both the righteous and wicked will be gathered and judged at the same time which is "at the end of the age"? Since Jesus will return at the end of the age then that means all people, saved and lost, will be judged/rewarded at that time. If you disagree, then tell me exactly how you interpret Matthew 13:47-50.

 

[power1]

No, I do not and I've already told you that before. Are you even trying or are you purposely acting like you don't know what I believe even after I've told you several times now? You clearly are not reading my posts carefully. I've told you that I'm an Amillennialist more than once. Amils believe that He returns AFTER the thousand years (and after Satan's little season).

Don't pretend. Any 1000 years that started in Jesus' day is long past.

Not a literal 1000 years.

In other words, no thousand years. They either exist or not.

I believe the thousand years is a figurative representation of the time period since Christ's resurrection up until a little season when Satan is loosed to wreak havoc in the world without restraint.

So you think that a 1000 years is really 2025 years or whatever.

Do yourself a favor and do some research on that, so that you stop making a fool of yourself.

If I say He reigns when He returns for 1000 years that is bible. You say He apparently reigns since He first came and that is reaallly the so called thousand years. Guess whose position is foolish?

That version of the Rapture doesn't exist.

In your mind.

Scripture teaches that He will descend from heaven once and when He does believers will all be caught up to meet Him in the air while unbelievers are all killed by the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

No on escapes the wrath of God that will start being poured out. Again you want to stuff it all into a day.

When Scripture talks about Jesus coming with His saints, it's talking about Him coming with the souls of the dead in Christ. Their souls are then united with their changed, immortal bodies. Then they, along with those who are alive and remain until His return are caught up to meet Christ in the air.

By that time the marriage supper is over.
rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Did you think the Bride would miss the Supper?

As Peter indicates in 2 Peter 3:10-12, the earth is burned up at that time.

No. In that day. That day includes a lot of things. This we know.

So, we don't turn around and come back to earth at that point nor are we taken to heaven.

It is not right away. A lot of the wrath of God back on earth is being poured out.

The judgment occurs after that and then we inherit the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Only by waving away the 1000 years do you imagine the new heavens comes any time other than when that millennium is expired.

LOL. The rapture is simply a reference to the church, including the dead in Christ and those who are still alive when He comes, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. I certainly believe that will happen. A vast majority of us here believe it will happen.

You seem to be conflating all sorts of passages and stuffing them into a day.

Name one false accusation that I've made.

You said what I said was false!

Scripture speaks of different types of tribulation.

There is only one Great Trib and one seven year period of the end. Don't try to conlate every tribulation man may have had before that with it!

You never define what exactly your version of "the Tribulation" is. When exactly will it begin and how long will it last.

The last week of Dan 9, the time of Jacob's trouble is that period of tribulation and in the middle of it comes the Great Tribulation. But since the plagues and vials seem to be poured out throughout that time it would all be the wrath of God.
When a third of the water on earth becomes blood is that not the wrath of God? When a third of the grass and trees are burned is that not wrath? When men are stung for months by weird creatures from the bottomless pit, is that not the wrath of God?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So here we see that it is a little while till that time when vengeance would be handed out. So we are still in that last period known as the Tribulation. There are still people being killed. Still saints being killed on earth at this time!
rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What you don't acknowledge is that the wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns will burn up the entire earth

I just showed above how saints on earth are still being killed! Nothing was all burned up.

(2 Peter 3:10-12) which Paul describes as "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". What mortals can survive that to populate a kingdom on earth for 1000 years?

When a third of the world population is killed in that period, do you think that is some slow thing? When those trumpets blow and those seals are opened this world suddenly gets destruction! Not total destruction yet.

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you think we will meet Him in the air if we're taken to heaven after that, as you believe? Why wouldn't we just be taken directly to heaven instead of meeting Him in the air in that case?

Is the first part asked because you do not accept a tribulation period?

You think Satan is given 42 months, or a figurative little season, your choice? Since John said 42 months, I will not give any more or any less than 42 months. Does Satan get the firstfruits in your interpretation? If you agree that Satan gets the firstfruits, then Christ only gets the leftovers? If you are alive at the Second Coming, you would prefer to be a leftover, instead of a firstfruit? Because meeting Christ in mid-air means we are on the way to Paradise, and Christ is on the way to the Mount of Olives.

I am a pre-mil who does not split up the rapture and Second Coming. But the Second Coming is before the Trumpets, the Thunders, Satan's 42 months in chapter 13, and the vials of wrath. I do not make up my own Revelation road map, and play "guess the chronology". I just accept the chronology John literally wrote as the Revelation of Christ was literally revealed. Does Paul not say that is what happens:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Why do you think we meet in the air, instead of just remaining on the earth for when Christ arrives to rescue Jerusalem? Where in Zechariah 14 does it say Jesus Christ arrives with an army of saints?

"And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

OK, are you meeting the Lord in the air, or fleeing Jerusalem when Jesus splits the Mount of Olives? Do you have another Second Coming in mind, or a third?

Why do you think there are saints in Jerusalem at the same time the church went to Paradise? Your theology claims there is not a third type of people, outside of the church and non church sets. Who are all the saints in Jerusalem fleeing for their lives, after God brings all the nations against Israel at the Second Coming?

There are saints covered by the Atonement in Paradise at the Second Coming. There are raptured saints, neither Jew nor Gentile at the Second Coming, waiting to enter Paradise. Then there are saints fleeing Jerusalem, all of them, when Christ rescues them from an attack. Later, Jesus Christ as Prince gathers even more sheep and goats out of the Nations and they are judged. Remember how Jesus said when ye see armies surrounding Jerusalem flee, for your redemption draweth nigh?

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

There was fleeing when Jerusalem was destroyed. There will be fleeing again, but instead of Jerusalem being destroyed:

"And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

Zechariah was not prophesying about 70AD. Nor even Armageddon. He was talking about the Second Coming in Revelation 6, and the 6th Seal. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD, but Zechariah claims when the Second Coming happens, Jerusalem will be saved, and safely inhabited. John claims in Revelation 20, 1000 years. So, yes, drastic changes to earth happen at the Second Coming. Fire changes heaven and the works on earth, but yet Jerusalem is spared. That is the total opposite of 70AD, when earth is not changed, but Jerusalem is obliterated.

Since Jerusalem is not destroyed, that is where Christ the Prince sits on His glorious throne, in a temple. The final harvest is then carried out during the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[power1]

No, I did not. I did just the opposite. I told you that I don't equate the "short time" of Revelation 12 with the "little season" of Revelation 20. Stop making false accusations like this.

So you are saying that the end of the thousand years is the same time as when the devil has but a short time in the Tribulation. Well, Once Jesus returns the devil is bound for a thousand years. If that short time in the Trib was the same, then you have Satan being bound for a thousand years in the Trib! Then you have him released in the Trib as well.

There's nothing wrong with using certain terms to describe what someone believes. So, instead of referring to "Amils" (Amillennialists), you want me to refer to "those who believe the thousand years precedes the return of Christ" every time I refer to them? Ridiculous.

No. Just support your position, and if there is some other position you want to slag then spell out the issue, not the name you want to call people who agree.

For reference, I had said "Amils believe that all of the dead, saved and lost, will be raised after the 1000 years, while Premils typically believe that only the unsaved dead will be raised after the 1000 years.". So, my answer to your question is that Amils use passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Acts 17:31 to support our belief that there is only one judgment day and one day that all people are resurrected rather than multiple days of judgment and multiple resurrection days.

My condolences then. That is disbelief.

I'm simply asking you to tell me how you interpret Matthew 13:47-50? And you don't seem to want to do so. Why is that?

What in there do you think needs some special interpreting?

Why are you avoiding tell me how you interpret Matthew 13:47-50 then? Am I asking too much? Does that passage not indicate that both the righteous and wicked will be gathered and judged at the same time which is "at the end of the age"?

So, when Jesus returns, He will separate the wicked from the just, no? The saints of that day are separated from the wicked, who are killed.

I notice in this commentary, they place that at the end of the 1000 years. (final judgment)

"Even among those who claim to be in the kingdom are the true and the false. These will be separated at the last judgment (Matthew 13:47-40.13.50)."
Matthew 13 - Bridgeway Bible Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

I see nothing here that specifies that there is no real millennium? If you want to apply that to when He returns, somewhat, I am not sure I would have a problem. I would have to look at it a bit closer. However, that does not mean that all are judged the day He returns or some such, if that is what you were trying to get at.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Don't pretend. Any 1000 years that started in Jesus' day is long past.

But, I'm not claiming that it's a literal 1000 years. It's impossible to get anything through to you. You're in over your head here.

In other words, no thousand years. They either exist or not.

They exist in the same way the thousand generations mentioned in Deuteronomy 7:9 exist. It is referring to literal generations there, but just not a literal one thousand generations. The word "thousand" is figurative for a large, undefined number.

So you think that a 1000 years is really 2025 years or whatever.

Hey, you're finally getting it!

If I say He reigns when He returns for 1000 years that is bible.

That's your opinion that can't be supported by the rest of scripture.

You say He apparently reigns since He first came and that is reaallly the so called thousand years. Guess whose position is foolish?

Do you deny that He has reigned since His resurrection?

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

In your mind.

Of course in my mind. My beliefs don't come from someone else's mind. Your beliefs clearly come from people who have taught you these things rather than your own studies. That explains why you are unable to back up your claims with scripture. You don't have your teacher(s) at your side to do that for you, so you do nothing but give opinions without any scriptural support.

No on escapes the wrath of God that will start being poured out. Again you want to stuff it all into a day.

No, I do not. But, I'm making a point about the wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns which you don't want to address. With all believers being changed at the second coming of Christ and all unbelievers being killed, that does not leave any mortals to populate the earth for a thousand years after His return.

By that time the marriage supper is over.
rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Did you think the Bride would miss the Supper?

That doesn't say the marriage supper is over at that point, it's saying that it's about to begin.

No. In that day. That day includes a lot of things. This we know.

So, give me your scriptural evidence for that then. Peter indicates that the heavens and earth will be burned up upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. How can it go on for a long time after that in that case? Your understanding of the day of the Lord is clearly flawed and completely contradicts what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3.

Only by waving away the 1000 years do you imagine the new heavens comes any time other than when that millennium is expired.

I don't wave away the 1000 years. I see it as an actual time period, but juts not a literal 1000 years. How many times do I have to tell you this? And you say the new heavens comes "when that millennium is expired"? Are you forgetting about Satan's little season again which comes after the thousand years?

You seem to be conflating all sorts of passages and stuffing them into a day.

I don't care what things may seem like to you. If you're not sure, then ask. In another post, you acted like I stuffed the thousand years into one 24 hour day which is utterly ridiculous and shows your lack of reading comprehension skills.

You said what I said was false!

So what? You believe that my doctrine is false, too. That's not a mystery or anything to be offended by. It's quite clear that we disagree on a lot of things. So be it.

There is only one Great Trib and one seven year period of the end. Don't try to conlate every tribulation man may have had before that with it!

Yet, you are completely unable to prove that there is a "seven year period at the end". You falsely think that the 70th week represents a seven year period at the end, but it does not. There is no gap in Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

The last week of Dan 9, the time of Jacob's trouble is that period of tribulation and in the middle of it comes the Great Tribulation.

That is nonsense. The 70th week was fulfilled long ago. Jesus confirmed the new covenant with His blood and that put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. That is what Daniel 9:24-27 is about.

But since the plagues and vials seem to be poured out throughout that time it would all be the wrath of God.

Where is your evidence to show that the vials are poured out for seven years? It does not tell us at all how long it takes for the vials to be poured out.

When a third of the water on earth becomes blood is that not the wrath of God? When a third of the grass and trees are burned is that not wrath? When men are stung for months by weird creatures from the bottomless pit, is that not the wrath of God?

Sure it is. So? It clearly doesn't affect the entire earth like the wrath that will come down on the day Christ returns, so why would believers need to be taken off of the earth for that? God is fully capable of protecting us while we're still on the earth. The only time when it wouldn't be reasonable for Him to do that is when the entire earth is burned up as Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So here we see that it is a little while till that time when vengeance would be handed out. So we are still in that last period known as the Tribulation.

That's talking about persecution against believers, though, and not God's wrath. Before this, you've always acted like "the Tribulation" only had to do with God's wrath, but that passage is talking about Satan's wrath against believers.

There are still people being killed.

Not by God! Still saints being killed on earth at this time!
rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
I just showed above how saints on earth are still being killed! Nothing was all burned up.

I didn't say everything is burned up yet at that point. That is all before Christ returns. I said that it will be burned up on the day He returns. Pay attention.

When a third of the world population is killed in that period, do you think that is some slow thing? When those trumpets blow and those seals are opened this world suddenly gets destruction! Not total destruction yet.

Peter and Paul both spoke about total destruction occurring upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. That day arrives when Christ returns. What you're talking about are things that occur before that day.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Is the first part asked because you do not accept a tribulation period?

No, I'm asking what the point is to meet Christ in the air if we're then taken to heaven after that. Why not just meet Him in heaven instead? What is the reason for meeting Him in the air in your opinion?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So you are saying that the end of the thousand years is the same time as when the devil has but a short time in the Tribulation.

No! I've said that I don't equate the short time of Revelation 12 with the little season of Revelation 20 multiple times now.

I see the "short time" of Revelation 12 as being not a literally short amount of time, but the limited amount of time that Satan was given after he was cast out of heaven long ago when Christ ascended there. Satan's time of accusing believers before God came to an end at that time which is why Paul asks in Romans 8:33 who can lay any charge against God's elect and the answer is no one. Including Satan. Satan's time is short in a relative sense in that he only has a limited time before he will be cast into the lake of fire. The Greek word translated as "short" in Revelation 12:12 doesn't have to refer to a literally small amount. The same word is used here and is translated as "few":

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

This is not referring to literally only a few people who are chosen, but is referring to the relatively few who are chosen even though there are literally a large number of people who are chosen. But, it's relatively few in relation to how many are called.

Satan's little season, on the other hand, is a literally small amount of time. The Greek word translated as "little" there means a literally small amount.

Well, Once Jesus returns the devil is bound for a thousand years. If that short time in the Trib was the same, then you have Satan being bound for a thousand years in the Trib! Then you have him released in the Trib as well.

I hope you're enjoying yourself arguing with your straw man here. I never once said that the "short time" referenced in Revelation 12:12 is the same as the "little season" referenced in Revelation 20:3.

No. Just support your position, and if there is some other position you want to slag then spell out the issue, not the name you want to call people who agree.

I don't need you to tell me what to do. I will continue to save time by using labels to refer to certain beliefs instead of explaining what the beliefs are every time.

My condolences then. That is disbelief.

Yes, it's disbelief in your false doctrine.

What in there do you think needs some special interpreting?

LOL. You must be squirming in your seat. Look at how you are trying to avoid giving me your interpretation of Matthew 13:47-50. Why is it that you won't tell me how you interpret it?

I notice in this commentary, they place that at the end of the 1000 years. (final judgment)

"Even among those who claim to be in the kingdom are the true and the false. These will be separated at the last judgment (Matthew 13:47-40.13.50)."
Matthew 13 - Bridgeway Bible Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

I see nothing here that specifies that there is no real millennium? If you want to apply that to when He returns, somewhat, I am not sure I would have a problem. I would have to look at it a bit closer. However, that does not mean that all are judged the day He returns or some such, if that is what you were trying to get at.

Of course that's what I'm getting at! Why are you denying that all will be judged when He returns when that is exactly what Matthew 13:47-50 indicates? You already acknowledged that Matthew 13:47-50 is talking about something that happens when Jesus returns and then you cited a source that says it happens after the 1000 years. Did you cite a source that you disagree with, which would make no sense, or do you agree with it? Put two and two together (it's talking about something that happens when Jesus returns and after the 1000 years) and you have to conclude that it's talking about something that happens when Jesus returns AFTER the thousand years.

I know all of this is new to you and not something you've been taught before, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means you've been taught wrong and haven't found the truth until now. So, what are you going to do with the truth now that it has been taught to you? Deny it and cling to what you've been taught before or humble yourself and accept what passages like Matthew 13:47-50 teach?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. They have shown they are confused and try to lump centuries of events into a single day.

What exactly are the "centuries of events" that Amils supposedly lump into a single day?

 

[Timtofly]

This does not make sense on many fronts!

(1) The destruction is not gradual as you imagine, it is "sudden." This negates your theology.
(2) The destruction is comprehensive - none escape This also negates your theology.
(3) If the wrath of God is poured out on the righteouss (as you insist), then this negates Pretrib and the reason for your supposed future "rapture."
(4) If all are destroyed through this wrath in your so-called 7-year trib (which you cannot show anywhere in Scripture), how can you then populate your so-called future millennium with billions of mortal rebels as the sand of the sea?

Have you removed this verse from your Bible?

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

God is very systematic in who dies and who does not after the Second Coming.

25% killed during the 4th Seal.

33% killed during the 6th Trumpet.

100% killed at Armageddon.

These are separate and systematic events to harvest souls, and the end to Adam's flesh and blood. The 1000 years starts with a resurrection. Those resurrected will populate the earth.

Why even have an earth, if no one lives on the earth? Do you think the New Jerusalem just empties out, and the earth is divided up into chunks given to those living in the New Jerusalem? They cannot have offspring, so it is only to live on a plot of earth, instead of in the New Jerusalem. You literally have no one available to fill the earth, but it is just a vast empty landscape. At least pre-mill point out Isaiah 65 gives a plausible explanation. However you claim a paradox that Isaiah 65 is about the NE, yet you literally have no population that can fit those who live like trees and still have offspring and children.

There are no children age 100 living in the New Jerusalem. There is no Egypt failing to send a delegation to Jerusalem. You literally have a population on earth that amounts to zilch. At least premil have a population, those saints and that beloved city. Premil have a resurrection, Revelation 20:4. People do live and reign with Christ.

Do you think less than a billion will march against Jerusalem? Do you think there are billions and billions of sinners in the Millennium? You cannot have more sinners prior to the Second Coming, than you claim can be populated from a resurrection, and alive after 1000 years, can you? I agree all are dead by the time the thousand years start. Then there is a resurrection.

Without Satan and sin, it would not be impossible to have trillions after 1000 years. The earth went from around 400 million in 1400 to 603 million in 1700, to 1 billion in 1800, to nearly 8 billion now. That was only the last 600 years. There are currently 15.2 million alledged Hebrews on earth. Over half of them live in Israel. If half of them are redeemed, and a remnant from every single nation on earth, currently 193 recognized as independent. There are 60 more ethnic groups inside other nations not having there own independent representation. If all these are represented in the Millennium there is plenty of time to fill the earth in 1000 years. There will be no sin or sin nature, because these souls are resurrected, not from Adam's flesh and blood. If you claim God cannot create nations from resurrected souls, explain how there are currently 253 ethnic groups from just 3 sets of parents after the Flood?

 

[Timtofly]

I can save you time. You can dig for a thousand years, but you will never find it. It is an extra-biblical theory. But i await with bated breath.

What thousand years are you offering? The last 2 or a future one?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Have you removed this verse from your Bible?

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

God is very systematic in who dies and who does not after the Second Coming.

That verse isn't talking about a time after the Second Coming. That's ridiculous. If you actually read 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 carefully and without bias then you would see that the destruction that occurs on the day of His second coming results in the complete destruction of earth (the surface of the earth). So, the verse you quoted is clearly not talking about something that happens after the second coming, but rather before.