Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[jeffweedaman]

He does not decend in the Rapture. We ascend!

Really....

15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus associated heaven and earth passing away with His second coming and He indicated that just as the flood destroyed all of the wicked in Noah's day, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". The wicked will all be destroyed when He comes as well. Which makes sense since the entire earth will be burned up

The earth is not going to burn up to pass away. Are you saying heaven and earth passed away at the Flood, because that is also associated with the Second Coming. What exactly is associated with what? Is the Second Coming after heaven and earth pass away. Is the Second Coming associated with Noah getting off the ark? Or getting on the ark? Why is there such a big issue of 1000 years between different instances of heaven and earth passing. There literally has been over 4000 years between the Flood and today. Even after fire destroys heaven and earth as you literally claim happens, there could still be another 1000 years, after the fire, the same as 4000 years between the Flood and now. Revelation 20:11 does not even say pass away. It says they fled away, which is symbolism they no longer existed.

In your example of passing away, there was also a form of judgment. Either the judgment of water or fire, or even just the appearance of the GWT. What exactly should be the outcome of passing away and that even then, the Word will continue to exist. Passing away in the Flood did not bring the Word to an end. Passing away in the Fire of the Second Coming will not bring an end to the Word. Even the GWT will not bring an end to the Word. So it is not really a specific point in time of the Word coming to an end, nor really a connection of reality ending. Jesus just claims the Word will not end, even if all of creation does end.

 

[DavidPT]

What satan's little season?

I don't know if SJ already answered that for you or not. satan's little season is recorded in ch 20:3. It is meaning Revelation 20:7-9. It is after the thousand years. After satan's little season is over, it is then the time of the great white throne judgment, the 2nd resurrection. This is why I indicated earlier that even if the day of the Lord involves the thousand years, heaven and earth have to pass at the beginning of it, not the end of it. The end of it is the beginning of satan's little season, thus the day of the Lord would be in the past if it involves the thousand years, because the thousand years would now be in the past.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If the thousand years are pertaining to this age there would be somewhere in the book of Revelation before ch 20 pertaining to this same thousand years. I can't find anything before ch 20 that matches with a period of time when satan would be in the pit. Everything before Revelation 20 depicts a loose satan not a bound one. I can't find one passage prior to ch 20 that even remotely depicts a time involving when satan is in the pit. If Revelation 20:1-6 is the intra-advent period, where then can one find this same intra-advent period recorded before ch 20, where it matches what is recorded in Revelation 20:1-6?

Naturally, you're not going to find that when looking at it from the Premil perspective. But from my perspective, it's recorded in Revelation 11 where it describes the 42 months/1260 days of the two witnesses because I see that as a figurative portrayal of the church witnessing to the world. It is only when the 42 months/1260 days ends that the beast ascends from the pit and, as you should know by now, I believe if the beast is in the pit then Satan has to be in the pit as well since they work together.

I know you won't agree with me on this, but I'm just showing that I, at least, do see the "intra-advent" period described before Revelation 20.

Then there is this:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

The similarities between that passage and the following verse are unmistakable.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 1:5-6 describes Jesus as being "the first begotten of the dead" which means He was the first to rise from the dead, as other scripture indicates as well (Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20;22). What that means is that He was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality. And then He is described as "the prince of the kings of the earth". And that is portrayed as a current reality. And then it indicates that Jesus "has made us kings and priests unto God and his Father". Again, it portrays that as a current reality.

So, with all of that in mind, why would we interpret Revelation 20:6 as speaking of something that is not yet a current reality? It talks about having part in the first resurrection. Scripture repeatedly teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection, so it must be talking about having part in His resurrection. That verse also talks about the second death not having power over those who have part in the first resurrection. The Revelation 1:5-6 passage says that Jesus "washed us from our sins in his own blood". Does the second death have power over those who have had their sins washed away by His blood? No. Surely, the second death has no power over the souls that John saw in heaven because their sins were washed away by Christ's blood. Then Revelation 20:6 says "they shall be priests of God and of Christ". Well, Revelation 1:5-6 indicates that believers right now are priests of God and of Christ. So, why interpret Revelation 1:5-6 to be speaking of a different time period than Revelation 20:6? That makes no sense.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Amils never use both the OT and NT together to prove they are the correct position. They go by what the NT alone says, not by what the OT and the NT together says.

You know that is not true. When will you stop misrepresenting Amil? This is why Amils do not take your arguments serious.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The earth is not going to burn up to pass away.

Oh really? Peter would beg to differ.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Are you saying heaven and earth passed away at the Flood, because that is also associated with the Second Coming.

Huh? Where does it say heaven and earth passed away at the flood and where does it say the flood is associated with the second coming? Maybe you mean something different than what you're saying, but what you're saying makes no sense.

What exactly is associated with what? Is the Second Coming after heaven and earth pass away.

No, heaven and earth will pass away at the second coming. Now, let's get something clear. When scripture talks about heaven and earth passing away it's not talking about them being completely annihilated and not existing at all anymore. It's talking about them no longer existing in the way we know them now. They will be burned up and renewed which will result in the new heavens and new earth.

Is the Second Coming associated with Noah getting off the ark? Or getting on the ark?

What do you mean?

Why is there such a big issue of 1000 years between different instances of heaven and earth passing.

The issue is that scripture doesn't teach such a thing.

There literally has been over 4000 years between the Flood and today.

That is irrelevant.

Even after fire destroys heaven and earth as you literally claim happens, there could still be another 1000 years, after the fire, the same as 4000 years between the Flood and now.

Where is there any indication of that in scripture, though? There isn't. Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 that it is according to the promise of Christ's second coming that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth. If the new heavens and new earth weren't even ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming, then what sense would 2 Peter 3:13 make?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't know if SJ already answered that for you or not. satan's little season is recorded in ch 20:3. It is meaning Revelation 20:7-9. It is after the thousand years. After satan's little season is over, it is then the time of the great white throne judgment, the 2nd resurrection. This is why I indicated earlier that even if the day of the Lord involves the thousand years, heaven and earth have to pass at the beginning of it, not the end of it. The end of it is the beginning of satan's little season, thus the day of the Lord would be in the past if it involves the thousand years, because the thousand years would now be in the past.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Yes, the duration of the DOTL is marked by the detail attributed to it - ongoing and fiery destruction. No one is exempt because it is poured out upon all fallen creation. No one surives. This exposes your narrative and your false picture of ongoing tranquility. The reality is: it is a fiery mess. If you are consistent, which you are not, your millennium portrayal falls completely apart as an apparition.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What satan's little season?

You seriously don't know what Satan's little season is? It's the time period that occurs right after the thousand years end.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season...7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

He does not decend in the Rapture. We ascend!

Why are you so naive? If you had any credibility before this, you just lost it.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's impossible to take you seriously. If you miss something as obvious as this, how can your opinion be trusted in anything that you say?

False.
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

He does not do that at all in the Rapture and it is us that see Him. In the return TO earth later, every eye sees Him. You are straining at nats trying to force all things to fit your rigid little view

I'm supposed to take this from someone who doesn't even know what Satan's little season is and doesn't even know that Jesus will descend from heaven when the rapture occurs? Jesus isn't going to descend from heaven twice in the future to gather His people. That's nonsense. Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly the same event as 1 Thess 4:14-17.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We are not appointed to wrath, that does not JUST mean the wrath Jesus pours on His enemies when He returns.

Yes, it does. What you're referencing is what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and the only wrath he mentions in 1 Thessalonians 5 is the final wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns. That wrath will bring about "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". That is the context of what Paul was talking about. That wrath, according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12, will come about by way of fire coming down on the entire earth. It makes sense that we'd be taken off the earth just before that occurs, but we have no need to be taken off of the earth while any other wrath or tribulation might be occurring before that.

 

[power1]

Really....

15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I guess if you want to be technical He does meet us half way. He doesn't come down to earth though at that time. Notice the bit about caught UP?

 

[power1]

I don't know if SJ already answered that for you or not. satan's little season is recorded in ch 20:3. It is meaning Revelation 20:7-9. It is after the thousand years. After satan's little season is over, it is then the time of the great white throne judgment, the 2nd resurrection. This is why I indicated earlier that even if the day of the Lord involves the thousand years, heaven and earth have to pass at the beginning of it, not the end of it. The end of it is the beginning of satan's little season, thus the day of the Lord would be in the past if it involves the thousand years, because the thousand years would now be in the past.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

OK, great. So the season is after the 1000 years. I think the poster imagines those years are not real and some sort of fantasy time or whatever.

 

[power1]

Yes, it does. What you're referencing is what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and the only wrath he mentions in 1 Thessalonians 5 is the final wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns. That wrath will bring about "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". That is the context of what Paul was talking about. That wrath, according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12, will come about by way of fire coming down on the entire earth. It makes sense that we'd be taken off the earth just before that occurs, but we have no need to be taken off of the earth while any other wrath or tribulation might be occurring before that.

No. I am referencing the whole period of wrath. Again you try to stuff all the wrath into a small verse??

 

[Timtofly]

According to Premil, not Amil. You are showing once again that you're missing the point. You are still thinking that Amil has to interpret it as though he was previously unable to deceive at all and then he is able to deceive after he is loosed. That is NOT how Amil understands his binding. It's clear to me now that I could explain this to you literally a thousand times and you still won't get it. I give up on that. I'm not going to try to explain it to you again after this post.

You do not even accept the Word?

"that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:"

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire."

At what point did this individual decieve? During the 1000 years or after they were over? What does John say:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations."

Do you argue that John was wrong about "not deceiving" the nations "any more", even though God knew he would deceive once again after the 1000 years.

The nations have still been deceived this whole time since the Cross. So is your whole argument based on Satan being bound or the nations deceived? Because your point does seem to imply it does not matter, because the nations have never stopped being deceived, period. You literally have no proof that all spiritual blindness has been lifted, and the world is knowingly in open rebellion. Otherwise the consensus is that the world does not even know God, because they are spiritually in darkness, until they can come to a point of faith and trust there is a God, sight unseen. It is the light of the Gospel that removes the darkness. It is not because Satan is bound and cannot deceive. Satan is also powerless to stop that light, as the light is stopped, because Christians have failed, not because Satan is prevented from making them fail. Satan does not make you sin against God, like He deceived Eve. Although Satan right now can certainly deceive any who listen to him. If people can listen to Satan, how does that indicate Satan is currently bound exactly for the very reason he cannot deceive, period. That is the only reason listed that Satan is bound. In the Millennium no one will even know Satan exist. What is the point of any one knowing after a resurrection that Satan is bound? According to John, he was bound, even before the resurrection. Did those dead souls witness the defeat of Satan when they were physically and spiritually dead? Amil have to explain why John shows Satan being bound prior to the resurrection. Then show people still know about Satan after this resurrection.

Since most people here who are amil are not arguing against post mil, which is basically the same thing as amil, since the only point is that this period is after the Second Coming. Amil does not argue things get worse in opposition to things will keep getting better. Amil still think Satan is loosed at the end. The problem is nowhere does the rest of Scripture claim Satan is loosed prior to the Second Coming. No one can even know, not even Jesus, when the Second Coming happens. Would not releasing Satan be a give away or a mentioned sign? Yet releasing Satan now is not going to deceive any one, because deception is already the state of the world. Christians have yet to totally dispell all the spiritual darkness, which proves both amil and post mill wrong.

Amil would have all darkness expelled, so nations can be deceived. Post mill would have it all expelled just prior to the Second Coming. Satan is not involved at all during this Coming Millennium. The same cannot be said of the last 1991 years, and even Amil agree that Satan is not literally bound, but somewhat restricted. I agree Satan is restricted, and always has been since he rebelled. Even his rebellion was allowed or Satan would never had gotten what he wanted. But his rebellion is not some future little season. His rebellion started a few years prior to Adam's own disobedience, which brought sin into the world. The differenc is that Premil point out Satan will be totally out of the picture. For the last 1000 years, it will be, "Satan who?". Only after the 1000 years have expired, will Satan again be introduced to the world. That is the context and text of Revelation 20.

 

[jeffweedaman]

I guess if you want to be technical He does meet us half way. He doesn't come down to earth though at that time. Notice the bit about caught UP?

Jesus said heaven and earth pass away at his coming so how could he come all the way down?
Do you believe the raptured saints are glorified at that time?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. I am referencing the whole period of wrath. Again you try to stuff all the wrath into a small verse??

You referenced what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which is that we are not appointed to God's wrath. While that's always true (believers would never be appointed to His wrath at any time), the context of what he was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5 was the wrath that will come down on the day Christ returns. The scope of the destruction will be so great that he said "they shall not escape". That fits with what Peter said about that day in 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well.

But, in terms of any wrath that might occur before that day, there is no need to be taken off of the earth in order to avoid it since it won't affect the entire earth like the wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns. God is fully capable of keeping us protected from any wrath that might come down up until that day when it comes down on literally the entire earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No. I am referencing the whole period of wrath. Again you try to stuff all the wrath into a small verse??

What you fight with, and what you cannot explain, is the fact the DOTL arrives suddenly and the wrath catches all the wicked unexpectedly and results in their wholesale destruction (none escape). You have nothing to refute that as it is inspired, explicit and repeated Scripture.

You also still have to show us your so-called Pretrib rapture in Revelation. That is because it doesn't exist. What is more, you cannot show a 7-year tribulation period after this supposed event anywhere in Scripture. Again, that is because it will never happen.

 

[power1]

Jesus said heaven and earth pass away at his coming so how could he come all the way down?
Do you believe the raptured saints are glorified at that time?

No idea what you think you are talking about. We go up in the air to meet Him where He is. Your effort to stuff all this (and the 1000 years also, no less!) into a single day is bizarre

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I guess if you want to be technical He does meet us half way. He doesn't come down to earth though at that time. Notice the bit about caught UP?

LOL. You're constantly having to change your tune after your statements are revealed to be false. Aren't you getting tired of that? And, as I said before, scripture does not teach that He will descend from heaven more than once in the future. That idea has zero scriptural support whatsoever.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No idea what you think you are talking about. We go up in the air to meet Him where He is. Your effort to stuff all this (and the 1000 years also, no less!) into a single day is cult like.

You better start watching what you say here or you will be reported. Just because we Amils don't agree that the 1000 years are included in "the day of the Lord" doesn't mean our belief is "cult like". We don't stuff the thousand years into a single 24 hour day, either, so you're misrepresenting our view by saying that. We believe in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection and His future second coming just like you do. Having a different understanding of the 1000 years hardly qualifies as being "cult like". If you say anything like that again you will be reported.