Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[power1]

You said "The time when heaven and earth passes is known! That is 1000 years after He returns.". Satan's little season couldn't occur in that case since it obviously occurs after the 1000 years ends. This just shows your lack of attention to detail.

What satan's little season?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes and that day of the Lord includes His return as well as rule on up to the end of the 1000 years. It's all His day.

Does all this sound like something that happens over a lunch break?
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

There are still nations! It takes time to do all that, get established, teach, etc etc.

In that day of the Lord this also happens..

Isaiah 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea
It takes time to gather people from all over the world.

Why are you not allowing the New Testament to give you the timing of those verses from Isaiah 11 for you?

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Paul referenced the above verse in Romans 15:12:

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Paul places the timing of the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:10 as being the time during which salvation is brought to the Gentiles and that obviously began already long ago when Peter preached the gospel to the Gentile Cornelius and others in his household. Your lack of discernment in differentiating between figurative and literal text along with your lack of being familiar with NT passages like Romans 15:8-12 is what is causing you to not interpret the Old Testament prophecies correctly.

Your misplaced coloured bible verse spamming is a waste of our time.

Quoting scripture to back up someone's views is a waste of time? Really? No wonder you rarely do that. I can barely even believe you actually posted some scripture for once in this post, but I guess it was a waste of time, right?

 

[power1]

The guy who provides no scriptural support to back up his theories wants us to admit defeat. LOL!

I posted probably hundred of verse actually. I guess it doesn't count if they are not bolded and multi coloured and off target?

 

[power1]

I don't recall saying the seals are not in the trib. I only said that of the 6th seal, not every seal. The 5th seal, for example, involves the time of the trib. Speaking of seals then. There is no mention of God's wrath until we get to the 6th seal. But once we get to the 6th seal, the trib is over at that point.

rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
I guess you need to say that the last plagues are not in the Trinb also?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Rapture verses are not the ones that cover the final years and last week of years in history. This is news?

Jesus will only be descending once from heaven in the future, not twice as you believe. The day He descends from heaven, the rapture will occur and the wicked will all be destroyed. The pre-tib rapture theory has no biblical support whatsoever. Pre-tribs have all kinds of farfetched beliefs such as claiming that the church is not mentioned in Revelation after Revelation 4 and other nonsense like that.

The rapture, which is a term describing the gathering of the church to meet Christ in the air when He comes, is referenced in Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus referred to that event in Matthew 24:31 and He made it quite clear that it will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I posted probably hundred of verse actually. I guess it doesn't count if they are not bolded and multi coloured and off target?

No, you have not. Why are you lying about that? You only started posting some verses after we had told you many times that you needed to back up your opinions with scripture. If we never told you to do that I doubt you ever would have posted any scripture. But, you still haven't posted much scripture to this point.

 

[power1]

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Obviously Jesus was also here in the first coming. Most of that chapter deals with the final time though. Why ignore it?

Paul places the timing of the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:10 as being the time during which salvation is brought to the Gentiles and that obviously began already long ago when Peter preached the gospel to the Gentile Cornelius and others in his household. Your lack of discernment in differentiating between figurative and literal text along with your lack of being familiar with NT passages like Romans 15:8-12 is what is causing you to not interpret the Old Testament prophecies correctly.

Salvation started to be brought, it sure didn't cover the world! Nor did all the things in the verses I posted happen yet, such as the child and lion etc. Did you think you could stuff the whole prophesy back into the time of thousands of years ago just because a bit of it also applies to that time?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why try to cover the crux of the matter with your position? Will you admit that you try to place all the events in the day of the Lord (also 'those days' in that day' etc) into one single day or not? Be honest.

Tell us what events you believe occur in the day of the Lord? I know you've said you think the thousand years are part of the day of the Lord. But, there is no scripture to back that up. That is the problem. You keep making claims like this without backing it up with scripture.

 

[power1]

Jesus will only be descending once from heaven in the future, not twice as you believe.

He does not decend in the Rapture. We ascend!

The rapture, which is a term describing the gathering of the church to meet Christ in the air when He comes, is referenced in Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus referred to that event in Matthew 24:31 and He made it quite clear that it will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

False.
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

He does not do that at all in the Rapture and it is us that see Him. In the return TO earth later, every eye sees Him. You are straining at nats trying to force all things to fit your rigid little view

 

[power1]

No, you have not. Why are you lying about that? You only started posting some verses after we had told you many times that you needed to back up your opinions with scripture. If we never told you to do that I doubt you ever would have posted any scripture. But, you still haven't posted much scripture to this point.

I disagree.

 

[power1]

Tell us what events you believe occur in the day of the Lord? I know you've said you think the thousand years are part of the day of the Lord. But, there is no scripture to back that up. That is the problem. You keep making claims like this without backing it up with scripture.

Just a few post back I gave a link where they listed events.

 

[DavidPT]

rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
I guess you need to say that the last plagues are not in the Trinb also?

The trib is the 42 month reign of the beast. That is then referring to Matthew 24:15-26. Do you at least agree with that? Assuming you do, where does it ever give the impression in all of Revelation 13 and Matthew 24:15-26 that the last vials of wrath are being poured out at the time?

In Revelation 13 they are asking, who is like unto the beast, who is able to make war with it. Would they be asking silly things like that if they were getting bombarded with the vials of wrath at the time? Look what the first vial involves.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Does it look like, in Revelation 13 and Matthew 24:15-26, that anyone is being tormented with a a noisome and grievous sore at the time?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Obviously Jesus was also here in the first coming. Most of that chapter deals with the final time though. Why ignore it?

Are you changing your tune now? Before, you were quite clearly acting as if the entire chapter deals with His second coming and a time period that would occur after that. Now that I showed you otherwise you're changing your story to say that most, but not all of it deals with a time period after the second coming instead?

I showed that Isaiah 11:10 deals with the first coming. And that verse starts out by saying "And in that day...". In what day? The same day (time period) that was being talked about in the previous verses. You said Isaiah 11:11 deals with the second coming but it says "And it shall come to pass in that day...". In what day? The same day/time period that verse 10 and the previous verses reference, which is the time during which salvation was brought to the Gentiles. We're still in that time period today, obviously.

Salvation started to be brought, it sure didn't cover the world!

Right. That's my point. That chapter is talking about the New Testament time period and not about a time period after Christ returns.

Nor did all the things in the verses I posted happen yet, such as the child and lion etc. Did you think you could stuff the whole prophesy back into the time of thousands of years ago just because a bit of it also applies to that time?

No, I'm saying it is about the ongoing New Testament time period. It certainly isn't about a time period after Christ returns, as you believe. Paul made that clear with how he intepreted Isaiah 11:10.

Why can't you just humble yourself for a second and acknowledge that your hyper-literal understanding of Isaiah 11 is wrong and you need to defer to Paul's understanding instead?

 

[power1]

The trib is the 42 month reign of the beast. That is then referring to Matthew 24:15-26. Do you at least agree with that? Assuming you do, where does it ever give the impression in all of Revelation 13 and Matthew 24:15-26 that the last vials of wrath are being poured out at the time?

In Revelation 13 they are asking, who is like unto the beast, who is able to make war with it. Would they be asking silly things like that if they were getting bombarded with the vials of wrath at the time? Look what the first vial involves.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Does it look like, in Revelation 13 and Matthew 24:15-26, that anyone is being tormented with a a noisome and grievous sore at the time?

The vials and plagues come in a sequence. So when for example a plague is poured on the seat of power of that last leader, obviously he has to be already here. Yes, people are bombarded with all sorts of things in that time. Yet they still blaspheme.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 25:31-46 is very clear that both the saved and the lost will stand before Him when He comes and will be judged at the same time. The idea of multiple judgment days is simply not taught in scripture.

Really? How many lost people fit this description:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Who is that "we"? This judgment is not on earth, not between realities, nor at any other time or for all humanity that ever lived. This chapter is written to all the redeemed of all time, but not all of Adam's offspring. Being absent from the body and present with the Lord is when we appear before this judgment seat of Christ. How can that define the lost? The lost are absent from the body and present in sheol.

Romans 14:8-12

"For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

This could just be a generic judgment, except it does get specific about judging one's brother. All will give an account, but not necessarily at the same time. The judgment seat of Christ is not the same as the great white throne of God, Himself. And these two are definitely not the same as the glorious throne of the Lamb set up in Jerusalem at the Second Coming.

And there is still this:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

Why would authority to pass judgment be given to God or Jesus? This is a judgment separate from all the above.

 

[power1]

Are you changing your tune now? Before, you were quite clearly acting as if the entire chapter deals with His second coming. Now that I showed you otherwise you're changing your story to say that most of it deals with a time period after the second coming instead?

Not sure how you glean your impressions. The prophesy spans a lot of time, just as the day of the Lord does!

I showed that Isaiah 11:10 deals with the first coming. And that verse starts out by saying "And in that day...". In what day? The same day (time period) that was being talked about in the previous verses.

No, sorry. Just because a bit was also applicable to Jesus' first coming, does not mean you get to stuff it all into that time alone!

You said Isaiah 11:11 deals with the second coming but it says "And it shall come to pass in that day...". In what day? The same day/time period that verse 10 and the previous verses reference, which is the time during which salvation was brought to the Gentiles. We're still in that time period today, obviously.

Isaiah 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 11:13
The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isaiah 11:14
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isaiah 11:15
And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isaiah 11:16
And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Can you point out the highway number that the saved Jews use today?

Right. That's my point. That chapter is talking about the New Testament time period and not about a time period after Christ returns.

Wrong. Only after He returns will nature again be restored to the created nature. Today, we are not going to tell young kids to go play on poison snake pits. I kid you not.

No, I'm saying it is about the ongoing New Testament time period. It certainly isn't about a time period after Christ returns, as you believe. Paul made that clear with how he intepreted Isaiah 11:10.

All Paul brought out was that the stem of Jesse already was here. That does not mean all that prophesy chapter happened in that day!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why would you think this period should ever end, if His reign was everlasting?

What kind of question is this? Do you not think that the thousand years will end? I'm sure you do since it clearly says so. And that was all I was saying. That does not mean I'm saying Christ's reign ends at that time. Satan's binding is what ends at that point, not Christ's reign.

That is one reason you claim premil limit His eternal reign.

When have I claimed that? Do you just randomly make stuff up off the top of your head when you post?

His Second Coming has nothing to do with an interruption to, nor a start of any reign. Premil do not claim His reign starts at the Second Coming.

Plenty of Premils believe that. Don't try to speak for all Premils when you have so many beliefs that are unique to yourself.

The thousand years as presented cannot nor ever will represent an intra-Advent period. Christ rules and reigns on earth period, no exceptions, during the Millennium.

Show me where scripture teaches this then. You're all talk and no scripture. I don't know how you guys think that I'm going to take you seriously when you don't ever back up your opinions with scripture. You think your opinions alone are going to convince me of anything? Think again.

 

[DavidPT]

The vials and plagues come in a sequence. So when for example a plague is poured on the seat of power of that last leader, obviously he has to be already here. Yes, people are bombarded with all sorts of things in that time. Yet they still blaspheme.

If you insist that the vials are being poured out during the trib, that means you should be able to at least show us when it is that the first vial gets poured out. If the trib is 42 months, how much time passes until the first vial gets poured out? 1 Day? A week? A month? 6 months? A year?

If the vials don't get poured out until after the trib, one then doesn't need to try and figure out when the first vial allegedly gets poured out during the trib.

During the 5th seal they are crying for vengeance but they are told to wait a little season longer. The vials of wrath are obviously the vengeance of God. The little season they are to rest, this is meaning the trib back on earth. The 5th seal alone proves that God's wrath is not during the trib, otherwise He would have started avenging them once they first began crying out.

Maybe you think the book of Revelation is chronological throughout? It obviously isn't, or at least it's obvious to some of us anyway.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Really? How many lost people fit this description:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

That's the same judgment that Romans 14:10-12 refers to and that passage includes unbelievers because even unbelievers will bow before Christ on the day of judgment. And I see you even quoted Romans 14:8-12 after this, so I don't know what your point was here.

Who is that "we"? This judgment is not on earth, not between realities, nor at any other time or for all humanity that ever lived. This chapter is written to all the redeemed of all time, but not all of Adam's offspring. Being absent from the body and present with the Lord is when we appear before this judgment seat of Christ. How can that define the lost? The lost are absent from the body and present in sheol.

Romans 14:8-12

"For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

This could just be a generic judgment, except it does get specific about judging one's brother. All will give an account, but not necessarily at the same time.

Why wouldn't it be at the same time? What is different between giving an account of yourself regarding what you've done and what is described in Matthew 25:31-46?

The judgment seat of Christ is not the same as the great white throne of God, Himself. And these two are definitely not the same as the glorious throne of the Lamb set up in Jerusalem at the Second Coming.

They are all the same. What is the basis for your opinions? None. Just because different words are used in these different passages doesn't mean it's not referring to the same thing. What is the difference between those who are figuratively described as goats being cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41) and those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire?

And there is still this:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

Why would authority to pass judgment be given to God or Jesus? This is a judgment separate from all the above.

You apparently have never read the following verse?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

So, whatever Revelation 20:4 is talking about when it says judgment was given unto them, it's not talking about them judging people and giving them eternal sentences. Only Jesus will do that and all will be judged at the same time. As it says in Acts 17:31, God has set one day to judge the world "by that man whom he hath ordained". Not two or more.

 

[power1]

If you insist that the vials are being poured out during the trib, that means you should be able to at least show us when it is that the first vial gets poured out. If the trib is 42 months, how much time passes until the first vial gets poured out? 1 Day? A week? A month? 6 months? A year?

So the first vial is poured on people who have that mark.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Not sure what they will call those who refuse it...'antimarkers'? So we don't know when that mark comes in. Nor when that final ruler reigns. So how can we say when exactly it is? If, say, the Rapture was before the seven years start, or just as it started, then how long till the mark? Possibly pretty fast. Who knows, maybe a few months into that last seven years. We don't know now.

If the vials don't get poured out until after the trib, one then doesn't need to try and figure out when the first vial allegedly gets poured out during the trib.

It can't be after the Trib, since Jesus will cast the AC into the lake then.

During the 5th seal they are crying for vengeance but they are told to wait a little season longer. The vials of wrath are obviously the vengeance of God.

Right, and they were killed in that last seven years sometime. That means when they cry it is still in that time.

The little season they are to rest, this is meaning the trib back on earth.

Well, they lost their heads in that Trib. They would have to wait till it ended to see Jesus execute vengeance and judgment.

The 5th seal alone proves that God's wrath is not during the trib, otherwise He would have started avenging them once they first began crying out.

Ah, there is where you run off the deep end. You see, just because the vials or plagues IN the Trib are wrath, does not mean it is also not wrath when He returns! That will be the greatest wrath. Boom. Both are wrath. It gets worse and worse for the wicked. We are not appointed to wrath, that does not JUST mean the wrath Jesus pours on His enemies when He returns.