Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

That is what they get when they get saved. They also get that land as promised.

More personal opinion and zero Scripture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So you know the verses. OK.

Yes, "the verses that Pretribbers misapply." That is because they have nothing.

 

[power1]

This is a typical contradiction in Pretrib. How can there be “sudden destruction” to such a wholesale degree that none escape ("they shall not escape"). This totally forbids the Pretrib theory of survivors or a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Easy. No one on earth escapes the horrible time. Even the many many new folks that get saved then. They are protected to some degree, and some of them totally. However, the things coming on the world cannot really be escaped.

 

[power1]

No. How can it? Where does it teach this? Nowhere! You have presented nothing yet.

Scripture shows it is “sudden destruction” and "they shall not escape." You have no answer to this. This demolishes the Pretrib theory.

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. Finally.

I'll give other posters the opportunity to provide you with support that that time is known as His wrath. If no one steps up, I'll try to dig that out for you.

 

[power1]

Yes, "the verses that Pretribbers misapply." That is because they have nothing.

Yes we do, Nya nya

 

[power1]

More personal opinion and zero Scripture.

The fact He gathers them again to that land is something you must know. Debate honestly

 

[power1]

Yes, "the verses that Pretribbers misapply." That is because they have nothing.

Well we disagree.

 

[power1]

Again, as is your pattern: zero Scripture and reams of personal opinion. This does not cut it. You also avoid the numerous holes in your theory. You do not seem to have a desire to address the sacred text, preferring to present what you have been taught over what the inspired text teaches. That is because you have to. It is unbiblical.

Vague nonsense.

Who said the wrath of God is upon us.

There we have it. So if you are shown it is wrath will you concede and wave that white flag?

 

[power1]

Why do you think we will meet Him in the air if we're taken to heaven after that, as you believe? Why wouldn't we just be taken directly to heaven instead of meeting Him in the air in that case?

Why would I have to know all the reasons He does what He does? I could guess. When nations go to war, what is the first thing they usually do? Withdraw their ambassadors. Then...boom.

 

[DavidPT]

• Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Why do we even need the NT if everything is already supposed to be crystal clear in the OT? That's basically what you are suggesting here, that if Zechariah 14 involves the thousand years, then it should mention it in the text itself.

Using this kind of reasoning, for example, the fact the NT reveals that there are 2 comings of Christ where there is then an ascension between the two comings, why don't you point out in the OT where that is already made perfectly clear, thus one doesn't even need the NT in order to shed light on this fact.

Before I attempt to address some more of these questions, do you disagree that sometimes things have to be logically deduced? Do you have an issue with that procedure?

For example, where is there a single Scripture that undeniably says that Jesus is God? Yet, most of us believe He is God. Why do we believe that when there is not a single Scripture that comes right out and says so? We believe Him to be God by logically deducing that. The same way with the Trinity. But if one does that in Zechariah 14 though, logically deduces things, this all of a sudden is not acceptable. God forbid that one does that in this chapter.

Basically then, a lot of my answers involving some of the rest of your questions will be based on logically deducing these things based on what the text is involving at the time.

• Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Does this fit the Jerusalem in the first century, what I have underlined?

Does this fit the Jerusalem in the Middle East that is currently on the map again, what I have underlined?

What is the only Jerusalem this can fit if not the new Jerusalem? Can't have the NJ without a new earth, therefore it can be logically deduced that that the new earth is in view here.

• 
  Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Compare with---

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Do you disagree that what I have underlined in verse 14 and 15, that this involves the 2nd coming? If you don't disagree, how could you then reasonably argue that what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5, that this doesn't involve the 2nd coming as well? Both passages are basically saying the exact same thing, are they not?

• 
  Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

What a strange question to ask. Even though that too can be logically deduced from verse 5 for one, we don't even need to do that. Zechariah 14 already locates Jesus on the earth in verse 4 unless you want to claim the mount of Olives is meaning on another planet or something.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

• 
  Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
  

This can be logically deduced based on what verse 16-19 record. These meant here couldn't possibly be meaning saved saints. These verses couldn't possibly be involving all of eternity. And if these verses are meaning post the 2nd coming, there is only one thing that can prevent this from involving all of eternity. And that is satan's little season and what happens at the end of that.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Easy. No one on earth escapes the horrible time. Even the many many new folks that get saved then. They are protected to some degree, and some of them totally. However, the things coming on the world cannot really be escaped.

This does not make sense on many fronts!

(1) The destruction is not gradual as you imagine, it is "sudden." This negates your theology.
(2) The destruction is comprehensive - none escape This also negates your theology.
(3) If the wrath of God is poured out on the righteouss (as you insist), then this negates Pretrib and the reason for your supposed future "rapture."
(4) If all are destroyed through this wrath in your so-called 7-year trib (which you cannot show anywhere in Scripture), how can you then populate your so-called future millennium with billions of mortal rebels as the sand of the sea?

 

[sovereigngrace]

The fact He gathers them again to that land is something you must know. Debate honestly

Present Scripture instead of your opinions. This is a Bible forum.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. Finally.

I'll give other posters the opportunity to provide you with support that that time is known as His wrath. If no one steps up, I'll try to dig that out for you.

I can save you time. You can dig for a thousand years, but you will never find it. It is an extra-biblical theory. But i await with bated breath.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Why do we even need the NT if everything is already supposed to be crystal clear in the OT? That's basically what you are suggesting here, that if Zechariah 14 involves the thousand years, then it should mention it in the text itself.

Using this kind of reasoning, for example, the fact the NT reveals that there are 2 comings of Christ where there is then an ascension between the two comings, why don't you point out in the OT where that is already made perfectly clear, thus one doesn't even need the NT in order to shed light on this fact.

Before I attempt to address some more of these questions, do you disagree that sometimes things have to be logically deduced? Do you have an issue with that procedure?

For example, where is there a single Scripture that undeniably says that Jesus is God? Yet, most of us believe He is God. Why do we believe that when there is not a single Scripture that comes right out and says so? We believe Him to be God by logically deducing that. The same way with the Trinity. But if one does that in Zechariah 14 though, logically deduces things, this all of a sudden is not acceptable. God forbid that one does that in this chapter.

Basically then, a lot of my answers involving some of the rest of your questions will be based on logically deducing these things based on what the text is involving at the time.

OK, you're saying all this to admit that Zechariah 14 does not teach or mention a thousand years. Exactly! That is what we all knew.

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Does this fit the Jerusalem in the first century, what I have underlined?

Does this fit the Jerusalem in the Middle East that is currently on the map again, what I have underlined?

What is the only Jerusalem this can fit if not the new Jerusalem? Can't have the NJ without a new earth, therefore it can be logically deduced that that the new earth is in view here.

OK, you're saying all this to admit that Zechariah 14 does not teach or mention anything about the new earth. We all knew that!

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Compare with---

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Do you disagree that what I have underlined in verse 14 and 15, that this involves the 2nd coming. If you don't disagree, how could you then reasonably conclude that what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5, that this doesn't involve the 2nd coming as well? Both passages are basically saying the exact same thing, are they not?

Here we go again. You're saying all this to admit that Zechariah 14 does not teach or mention the glorified saints here. We all knew that!

What a strange question to ask. Even though that too can be logically deduced from verse 5 for one, we don't even need to do that. Zechariah 14 already locates Jesus on the earth in verse 4 unless you want to claim the mount of Olives is meaning on another planet or something.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Again. You're saying all this to admit that Zechariah 14 does not teach or mention Jesus reigning from Jerusalem in a temple that is performing Jewish sacrifices. We all knew that!

This can be logically deduced based on what verse 16-19 record. These meant here couldn't possibly be meaning saved saints. These verses couldn't possibly be involving all of eternity. And if these verses are meaning post the 2nd coming, there is only one thing that can prevent this from involving all of eternity. And that is satan's little season and what happens at the end of that.

Yea! Right? It can surely be deduced! Again. You're saying all this to admit that Zechariah 14 does not teach or mention the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming.

Summary

You have presented nothing of evidential worth that marries with Revelation 20 and the events that you attribute to that figurative chapter. This confirms what we all know: Premil enjoys zero corroboration throughout the Word. Zechariah 14 is another proof of its error.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you understand that the original manuscripts of the Bible were not written in English? The Greek word "ethnos" can mean "nations" but that isn't the best translation of the word in a verse like this or in a verse like Revelation 20:8 where the "nations" (Greek ethnos) number as the sand of the sea. Obviously, it's not really talking about nations in Revelation 20:7, but instead individuals.

Again, scripture does not teach a judgment of nations. To see Matthew 25:31-46 results in the ridiculous notion of entire nations somehow either inheriting eternal life or being cast into everlasting fire. Those are things reserved for individuals, not nations.

Don't conflate passages and events.

I'm not.

You seem to pretend I said this? Try debating honestly.

I am debating honestly. You said Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of nations. It's not. How am I debating honestly? Are you saying you didn't say it was a judgment of nations when you clearly did?

If the tooth fairy is made up why would we not bother 'refuting' her?

I see that I'm debating an immature child. I'll make note of that.

That depends if the day of the Lord is that few hours after He first returns, or a time period.

You don't even have an opinion on that? And I'm supposed to take you seriously?

It includes Jesus returning on up to the end of the 1000 years, and maybe a bit more.

How exactly does it come like a thief in the night if it last for 1000+ years? That makes no sense.

False. He is already here then.

What are you talking about?

That does not mean that the heavens are made new when Jesus returns! That is part of what will eventually happen after He comes. We do look forward to it.

How does it make sense to look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming if the new heavens and new earth aren't even ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming? That defies all logic. If the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming then it will have nothing to do with the promise of His second coming.

It makes much more sense that His second coming will be what ushers in the new heavens and new earth because Peter indicated that He will burn up the current heavens and earth when He comes. Paul said it will be "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" and gave no indication that the destruction would not occur until a long time after Christ returns.

Both Peter and Paul warned the readers about being ready for the day of the Lord in anticipation of it's coming. Do you know why that is? Because they didn't want their readers to be among those who will have sudden destruction come upon them. They wanted them to be spiritually alert and sober and watching so that they would not be deceived and fall away before He returns.

Simple. The Rapture comes without warning as a surprise. Then they face sudden destruction and great Tribulation such as was never seen before.

The sudden destruction will be global. According to Peter it will be by fire and will burn up the entire earth. How do you have anyone surviving that destruction?

We already know when the earth is made new and burned. No question there about it. Hint: whenever that is mentioned, KNOW that it is talking about the end of the 1000 years.

I agree. And that is when Christ will return.

Because we all need to be ready for His coming.

Why do we need to be ready if the wrath and destruction Peter talked about won't even happen until 1000+ years after His coming?

I don't concur. What are the nations He rules over, aliens? What is Israel that was saved, bugs?

He rules over the entire heavens and earth right now. Your understanding of His rule is flawed.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

That all depends if one lumps together all events in the day of the Lord into a lunch break sized time period. You apparently do. That seems to be why you are hopelessly confused.

You are not one to call someone else hopelessly confused when NONE of your arguments are backed up with scripture. It's all opinion with you. Your opinions alone, which is all you have, are not going to convince anyone of anything. Tell me where scripture teaches that the day of the Lord is meant to be understood as a long period of time.

Of course that day is coming and we know when it is. What about it?

Are you not paying attention to what I'm saying? What do you mean "what about it?". My point is that Jesus indicated in John 5:28-29 that a day is coming when all of the dead are raised. On the same day. You have them being raised on multiple days. Why do you not accept what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29?

You never use scripture to back up your opinions. Why is that? I can barely even take you seriously when you offer no scriptural support for your opinions.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So? You think all noise has to happen the same morning or evening?

Both Peter and Paul indicate that it will be sudden and the destruction will be global. To the point that Paul said "they shall not escape". How long do you think complete global destruction by fire should take?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So the folks in the ark were the church!?

I do believe that all believers from all-time are in the church, but we don't need to debate that now. I was speaking about people who put their faith in Christ. Anyone who does that at any time, including anyone who would do that during a future tribulation period or millennium, will be part of the church. The church is made up of all those who have faith in Christ. That won't ever change. You attempt to divide up God's people, but scripture says we are all one in Christ as the body of Christ/church. That will not ever change.

 

[power1]

This does not make sense on many fronts!

(1) The destruction is not gradual as you imagine, it is "sudden." This negates your theology.

Not in any way. Of course the things coming upon the earth are sudden and will increase like labour pains as they get closer to the end. The context is the wrath of God period. Not that all this happens over lunch. Also, just before Jesus returns, the wicked will still be doing their thing and that will be sudden when He comes back!

(2) The destruction is comprehensive - none escape This also negates your theology.

That does not mean all die. It means this world is basically over as far as man ruling goes. There are still people burning weapons, coming to Jerusalem to bring offerings, etc etc.

(3) If the wrath of God is poured out on the righteouss (as you insist), then this negates Pretrib and the reason for your supposed future "rapture."

False. The Bride is taken away to His home. It is wonderful that there will be a great harvest of new believers after that! We are not appointed to wrath. Those who are here in that time of wrath will go through it, even though being 'holpen with a little help' and some of them being protected such as the 144,000.

(4) If all are destroyed through this wrath in your so-called 7-year trib (which you cannot show anywhere in Scripture), how can you then populate your so-called future millennium with billions of mortal rebels as the sand of the sea?

All are not destroyed in the Tribulation, as shown, there are still nations to rule over.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Not for the dead in the sea and hell and etc. The only way you could be confused into lumping that all together is by thinking the period know as the day of the Lord. (also called in those days or in that day in prophesies) was one single event in a part of one single day. Therein lies your problem.

You seem to have a problem with terms like the day of Lord coming like thief ( quickly ) and the SUDDEN destruction that follows ,from which there will be no escape.1Thess 5

You also fail to understand that the eternal destruction of 2thess 2 can only be carried out at the gwt.


[ Jack hammering Scripture to fit your preconceived confused pet doctrines is not rightly dividing anything.]

We can only rightly divide the facts by using other scripture. Try quoting it sometime as your not doing that.


Judgment of all the living and dead occurs at his coming.

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.”
19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

 

[power1]

Both Peter and Paul indicate that it will be sudden and the destruction will be global. To the point that Paul said "they shall not escape". How long do you think complete global destruction by fire should take?

It will be sudden. The events of the Tribulation are sudden, and will the return of Jesus be. The fires that happen then are not global. The new earth and the fire that destroys this earth are at the end of the 1000 years. That will be sudden also!