Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

No. He is bound when Jesus returns. He is loosed on the earth before that. Hardly as it is in heaven.

Says...who? Chapter and verse that says the second death is when Jesus returns? The wicked are killed. Then after the 1000 years they rise to get judged. Then the second death and lake of fire.


That says nothing about the lake of fire. The only mention of the lake of fire is after the great judgment of all the dead after the 1000 years.

There are multiple New Testament Scriptures to support the Amil position and the current binding of Satan. You must sidestep all these to sustain your own argument. Premil on the other hand has zero corroboration for its theory. That is damning for the doctrine. Scripture proves Satan was spiritually bound in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22), and therefore negates Premil. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Revelation 9 also describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season.

Spiritual binding is speaking about putting him in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22). We are looking at spiritual restraint. Satan is currently in a spiritual prison since the first resurrection until Satan’s little season (see Revelation 9 and Revelation 20). So is his minions including the beast. This corresponds with Satan being cast out of heaven with his minions toward earth (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:5-11).

 

[jeffweedaman]

No. He is bound when Jesus returns.

.

The Lord is clearly ruling now as satans goods are being transferred into the Kingdom of light now. The strong man of darkness must already be bound.... True or false?

Who is reigning?.... but the only one who can save the living and the dead? 3000 people can join us in one day so we should preach it at this late hour.

He has the keys of death and he will reign over the living and the deads fate the last day.
The Gospel he has already spoken we save us the last day and judge the others the last day.


[ Says...who? ]

Jesus


[Chapter and verse that says the second death is when Jesus returns? ]


Already told you, Matt 25:41 is when Jesus throws into the lake of fire,... that specific lake prepared for the devil and his angels.


41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Rev 20
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Second death must then occur at his glorious appearing to glorify his redeemed and eternally separate the rest. Please see 2 thess 1 for confirmation of what happens on the day we are glorified at Jesu second coming.
[/QUOTE]


Edit

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed

 

[DavidPT]

We are looking at spiritual restraint. Satan is currently in a spiritual prison since the first resurrection until the last trumpet (see Revelation 9 and Revelation 20).

Is that a typo, you having him bound until the last trumpet? The last trumpet is obviously the 2nd coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Is that a typo, you having him bound until the last trumpet? The last trumpet is obviously the 2nd coming.

Yes. Good catch. Thanks.

 

[power1]

There is only one channel that God has ordained whereby Israelis can come to Christ and that is within the Church (true Israel).

And when they see Him whom they pierced, they will mourn as for an only son. All Israel is saved.

When Jesus comes it is too late for everyone.

Not for those who accept and believe on Him such as the remnant of Israel that will do just that.

God uses the terms “Israel,” “circumcision,” “Jews,” Jerusalem, Zion (Sion) and “children of the Abraham” in both a natural earthly sense and a spiritual heavenly sense in Scripture.

Well, His feet are not landing on a magical pudding mountain, but an actual mountain in an actual place. It will not be some spiritual dream nation somewhere that gets invaded, but what we call the nation of Israel. There are promises to actual children of Abraham who believe in Him. Those promises involve restoring them to an actual land.

When He uses them in a natural sense He is talking specifically about the natural Hebrew descendant; when He uses them in a spiritual context He is referring exclusively of the elect of God – God’s true people, those that have entered into salvation by simple faith.

The remnant of Israel that get saved after over two thirds of them are killed in the end are not spirits. They are real people.

God has joined believing Jews and Gentiles from this New Testament era together with believing Jews and Gentiles from the Old Testament era and made them one in Christ.

Right, and after those believers are long Raptured, and no longer here, there will be other believers and many of those will be Jewish. Do not think that God cannot fulfil His promises to Israel as well as His promises to Christians.

 

[power1]

These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man. This does not mean there are 2 kings, 2 kingdoms or 2 thrones. No. There are two aspects to Christ’s kingship - human and divine.

In His Davidic kingship He rules the Israel of God - the redeemed of God; in His divine kingship He rules all creation. These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man.

Are you talking about His rule after He returns when David as He is called in that instance rules?

 

[power1]

.

The Lord is clearly ruling now as satans goods are being transferred into the Kingdom of light now.

Clearly that is ridiculous if you take that to mean Jesus is here ruling all of the planet so that it is like heaven!

The strong man of darkness must already be bound.... True or false?

In context, Jesus defeated death and Satan. But He has not returned to take over and rule. He also allows Satan and the Antichrist a little time of ruling in the end here on earth. It is after this time that Satan is temporarily disposed of.

Who is reigning?.... but the only one who can save the living and the dead? 3000 people can join us in one day so we should preach it at this late hour.

In our hearts and minds He lives and reigns. In this world we will and do have plenty of tribulation. His kingdom is not of this world. If it were His people would fight. When He returns He will take over and then His kingdom will be here and ruling earth and all people on it.

[ Says...who? ]

Jesus

You said this "The second death IS the lake of fire and Jesus makes this judgment at his coming...," I see nothing in chapter 25 that mentions the lake of fire. However in Revelation we do see that the lake exists already when Jesus returns. So on that point, you could have some merit.

[Chapter and verse that says the second death is when Jesus returns? ]


Already told you, Matt 25:41 is when Jesus throws into the lake of fire,... that specific lake prepared for the devil and his angels.

The ones thrown in before the 1000 years are the false prophet and antichrist. But in looking at this, I do see that the lake of fire is there already before the 1000 years, because the AC is tossed into it.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

The fire is eternal.

Rev 20
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Then being after the 1000 years. To prove that we simply go to verse 7 and see when this happens.

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired

Second death must then occur at his glorious appearing to glorify his redeemed and eternally separate the rest.

Obviously He returns before the 1000 years start, not when it ends. The only ones who could possibly have the second death before the 1000 years would be those eternally judged before the 1000 years started. But it does seem you may have a point in that some are judged when He returns. The main judgment is after the 1000 years when the dead are raised. We would have all the people that die in the 1000 years that were not saved as well as all those who died before the time Jesus returned. In other words, I did not see verses that say the wicked dead get raised and judged when Jesus returns.

Please see 2 thess 1 for confirmation of what happens on the day we are glorified at Jesu second coming.

There are saints living at the end of that 1000 years also you know. Will He not also be glorified in them?

Edit

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed

They will pay the penalty. So are you saying that some of the wicked will have already faced their eternal judgment when Jesus comes? If so, there are still 'the rest of the dead' that are raised to be judged after the 1000 years. So at the least not all the wicked/dead are judged when He returns to earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And when they see Him whom they pierced, they will mourn as for an only son. All Israel is saved.


Not for those who accept and believe on Him such as the remnant of Israel that will do just that.

Well, His feet are not landing on a magical pudding mountain, but an actual mountain in an actual place. It will not be some spiritual dream nation somewhere that gets invaded, but what we call the nation of Israel. There are promises to actual children of Abraham who believe in Him. Those promises involve restoring them to an actual land.

The remnant of Israel that get saved after over two thirds of them are killed in the end are not spirits. They are real people.
Right, and after those believers are long Raptured, and no longer here, there will be other believers and many of those will be Jewish. Do not think that God cannot fulfil His promises to Israel as well as His promises to Christians.

Can you furnish us with hard Scripture, as all i am getting is personal opinion?

Zechariah 12:10 says, “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

This relates to when Messiah appeared nearly 2,000 years ago. As predicted, salvation flowed out from the Cross – firstly to Israel, then to the nations. Many, many Jews have accepted Christ and His sacrifice for sin since then. Many came to a personal faith in Christ after the resurrection. Since then, countless Gentiles have entered into the joy of sins forgiven. The cross is man’s only hope; it is the only means by which sinful man (Jew or Gentile, pre-Calvary or post) can enter into union with God. It is the only way that man can be reconciled onto sinful creatures and experience the wonderful quickening “spirit of grace.” The Holy Spirit came like rivers of living water to all who would believe in Christ. Jews by the thousands, as well as new Gentile converts were the welcome recipients of this following Calvary.

John 19:30-37 says, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

Right, and after those believers are long Raptured, and no longer here, there will be other believers and many of those will be Jewish. Do not think that God cannot fulfil His promises to Israel as well as His promises to Christians.

Can you provide Scripture to support this?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Clearly that is ridiculous if you take that to mean Jesus is here ruling all of the planet so that it is like heaven!
In context, Jesus defeated death and Satan. But He has not returned to take over and rule. He also allows Satan and the Antichrist a little time of ruling in the end here on earth. It is after this time that Satan is temporarily disposed of.
In our hearts and minds He lives and reigns. In this world we will and do have plenty of tribulation. His kingdom is not of this world. If it were His people would fight. When He returns He will take over and then His kingdom will be here and ruling earth and all people on it.

You said this "The second death IS the lake of fire and Jesus makes this judgment at his coming...," I see nothing in chapter 25 that mentions the lake of fire. However in Revelation we do see that the lake exists already when Jesus returns. So on that point, you could have some merit.

The ones thrown in before the 1000 years are the false prophet and antichrist. But in looking at this, I do see that the lake of fire is there already before the 1000 years, because the AC is tossed into it.


The fire is eternal.

Then being after the 1000 years. To prove that we simply go to verse 7 and see when this happens.

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired

Obviously He returns before the 1000 years start, not when it ends. The only ones who could possibly have the second death before the 1000 years would be those eternally judged before the 1000 years started. But it does seem you may have a point in that some are judged when He returns. The main judgment is after the 1000 years when the dead are raised. We would have all the people that die in the 1000 years that were not saved as well as all those who died before the time Jesus returned. In other words, I did not see verses that say the wicked dead get raised and judged when Jesus returns.
There are saints living at the end of that 1000 years also you know. Will He not also be glorified in them?

They will pay the penalty. So are you saying that some of the wicked will have already faced their eternal judgment when Jesus comes? If so, there are still 'the rest of the dead' that are raised to be judged after the 1000 years. So at the least not all the wicked/dead are judged when He returns to earth.

Jesus said in Luke 11:21-22, “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

The strong man’s goods are people who were in spiritual bondage to the devil whom Christ has now delivered. To invade Satan’s territory and spoil his goods, Christ had to bind the strong man first through His victorious earthly assignment. Jeff is right. The fact that the Lord is ruling now and that Satan’s goods are being transferred from his control throughout the Gentile nations into the kingdom of God is solid evidence that Revelation 20 relates to the intra-Advent period. The strong man must indeed be already bound.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

All Revelation 20 is demonstrating is: before the first resurrection, the Gentiles were in darkness, after that the Gospel light removed the ignorance. This came in the form of the great commission. Satan is powerless to curtail the global invasion of his kingdom. He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ. He is restrained in spiritual chains in a spiritual prison. Repeated Scripture shows that the Church has now been given spiritual power over Satan to bind his power, spoil his goods, damage his kingdom and thwart his plans.

 

[DavidPT]

He is restrained in spiritual chains in a spiritual prison. Repeated Scripture shows that the Church has now been given spiritual power over Satan to bind his power, spoil his goods, damage his kingdom and thwart his plans.

If an animal is bound, say in an enclosed caged that is fully locked and shut, does one then put that cage inside of another cage, then put those cages inside of yet another cage, so on and so on? IOW, the initial cage isn't sufficient by itself to have the animal fully bound, so let's put that cage inside of a bigger cage, but even that is still not sufficient, so let's just keep on doing that indefinitely. Maybe eventually the animal will be adequately bound. But guess what? It was already adequately bound to begin with, thus an overkill with all these extra bigger cages each time. The picture you are painting would be somewhat similar. Your view has satan already bound, except he isn't bound quite enough, so let's just bind him some more, and some more after that, so on and so on. I would think the idea is, you bind something not already bound, not something already bound. Why don't you think the thousand year binding by itself gets the job fully done? Why do you think he needs to be bound even more after that?

Per Premil no one is going to continue binding satan throughout the thousand years, in any sense, because Premils realize that once he is bound, that gets the job fully done, and Amils apparently don't.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If an animal is bound, say in an enclosed caged that is fully locked and shut, does one then put that cage inside of another cage, then put those cages inside of yet another cage, so on and so on? IOW, the initial cage isn't sufficient by itself to have the animal fully bound, so let's put that cage inside of a bigger cage, but even that is still not sufficient, so let's just keep on doing that indefinitely. Maybe eventually the animal will be adequately bound. But guess what? It was already adequately bound to begin with, thus an overkill with all these extra bigger cages each time. The picture you are painting would be somewhat similar. Your view has satan already bound, except he isn't bound quite enough, so let's just bind him some more, and some more after that, so on and so on. I would think the idea is, you bind something not already bound, not something already bound. Why don't you think the thousand year binding by itself gets the job fully done? Why do you think he needs to be bound even more after that?

Per Premil no one is going to continue binding satan throughout the thousand years, in any sense, because Premils realize that once he is bound, that gets the job fully done, and Amils apparently don't.

[Edit]

I do not know what you are getting at. Amils believe Satan was bound once through the earthly ministry of Christ. He will be released just before the coming of Christ to have his final throw. It is Premils that have him bound, rebound and then unbound 1000 years after the second coming.

Can a dog on a chain cause injury or harm?
Can an inmate in a prison cause injury or harm?
Were the Gentiles in OT who were bound by chains and incarnated in a prison able to move about and do dastardly deeds?

 

[sovereigngrace]

And when they see Him whom they pierced, they will mourn as for an only son. All Israel is saved.


Not for those who accept and believe on Him such as the remnant of Israel that will do just that.

Well, His feet are not landing on a magical pudding mountain, but an actual mountain in an actual place. It will not be some spiritual dream nation somewhere that gets invaded, but what we call the nation of Israel. There are promises to actual children of Abraham who believe in Him. Those promises involve restoring them to an actual land.

The remnant of Israel that get saved after over two thirds of them are killed in the end are not spirits. They are real people.
Right, and after those believers are long Raptured, and no longer here, there will be other believers and many of those will be Jewish. Do not think that God cannot fulfil His promises to Israel as well as His promises to Christians.

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid, and runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 26-27: “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. … But now are they many members, yet but one body. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”

No one could surely fail to notice the absolute wholeness of this body and its singular nature. Such a unitary representation as the body is advanced to in some small way signify the cohesive intimacy that there is between the saints in the Old and the New Testament and the whole unity between the Jew and Gentile in Christ. This was perfectly secured through our Lord’s great atoning work on the cross. The human body, so carefully fitted together, is presented in Scripture as a beautiful picture of the mystical union between Christ and His people throughout the ages. By virtue of that union, the New Testament saints enjoy spiritual unity and communion with the Old Testament believers.

The instrument God uses to bind the believer to Christ is the Holy Spirit. The true believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is therefore joined to Christ through the work of the Spirit. The Bible says, “He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (I Corinthians 6:17). Every believer united to Christ is thus united to His brethren by the Spirit, all being members of the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:16 says, “the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth.”

The Holy Spirit draws Jew and Gentile alike to Jesus and into His one and only body the Church.

Romans 12:5 tells us: “So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

Colossians 3:11&15 agrees, saying, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all … ye are called in one body.”

Galatians 3:28-29 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Scripture couldn’t be clearer. There is no allowance for ethnic difference within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, colors or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. Those that have the Spirit of Christ in both the Old and the New Testament are the true seed of Abraham – that father of the faith.

Dispensationalists do their best to divide the people of God, when repeated New Testament Scripture seeks to unite them as one. David Rudolph articulates their reasoning: “But is the male–female distinction erased in Christ? On the contrary, Paul distinguishes between men and women in his congregations. The created order with respect to “male and female” is not overturned in Christ. This raises an important question: if in Paul's thought the third pair (male and female) is not erased, why should it be concluded that the first pair (Jew and Greek) is erased?” (Zionism in Pauline Literature).

This reasoning is weak and just doesn’t add up. In order to justify their theology of apartheid, they are forced to distort the sacred text. No one is saying that people lose their ethnic status, societal status, gender status, when they come to Jesus. Paul is simply highlighting the fact that none of these contrasting groups carry any special favor, religious privilege or spiritual entitlement on the grounds of their respective identities. No, “in Christ” we are all equal and all one. Dispensationalists are imputing something into the text that doesn’t exist. They elevate Jews to a place that the New Testament doesn’t allow and then argue for their uniqueness and distinction in the New Testament era. This totally wrong!

Ephesians 4:4-6 affirms, “there is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

Dispensationalists would give us the impression we are dealing with two different God’s – Yahweh in the Old Testament and Jesus in the new. But that is not true. You cannot divorce Yahweh from Jesus any more that you can divorce an Old Testament saint from a New Testament saint. The people of God, believing Jews and Gentiles, Old Testament and New, have all drank of the same spiritual drink – the “living water” of the Spirit – that has emanated from Christ the Rock.

I Corinthians 10: 17-18 contends, “For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?”

The Old Testament saints were found “in Christ” having the “spirit of Christ” within them. 1 Peter 1:7-11 confirms this. As in the picture of the figurative spiritual house, Paul uses near identical language to describe the spiritual body of Christ throughout time. He does so in order to express the beautifully unity between the Old and New Testament saints.

 

[power1]

This relates to when Messiah appeared nearly 2,000 years ago.

The chapter starts out telling us when it is talking about

Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh

It is very clear that it is when Jesus returns and that time.
Zechariah 14:3
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
It also makes it crystal clear with other specifics of that time that did not happen yet of course.
Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
So, no, it certainly was not history.

Trying to hammer things to make it sort of sound like all this was fulfilled is not good. Yes, we could also say that a partial fulfillment of some aspects of this great and detailed prophesy about the end of days were fulfilled, such as that some did look on Him whom they pierced at the time of crucifixion. But there are even more specifics that show us when the prophesy is about primarily.

Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

That did not happen. There is no possibility that we could try to say this was history.

As for supporting how all Israel will be saved one day, that is easy.

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Zech 8 And the word of the Lord of hosts came, saying, 2 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: sI am jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I am jealous for her with great wrath. 3 Thus says the Lord: tI have returned to Zion and uwill dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, vand Jerusalem shall be called the faithful city, wand the mountain of the Lord of hosts, the holy mountain.

Zechariah 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[power1]

The strong man’s goods are people who were in spiritual bondage to the devil whom Christ has now delivered. To invade Satan’s territory and spoil his goods, Christ had to bind the strong man first through His victorious earthly assignment. Jeff is right.

Not in the sense that God is ruling the world and nations today as it is in heaven. That is not what the verse was talking about. Jesus won the victory over death and sin and Satan. Only when He returns to earth will He remove Satan from it and rule here. As a matter of fact we see that He sends Satan and his angels TO earth in the end.

The fact that the Lord is ruling now and that Satan’s goods are being transferred from his control throughout the Gentile nations into the kingdom of God is solid evidence that Revelation 20 relates to the intra-Advent period. The strong man must indeed be already bound.

Ruling in believers. Not ruling the nations. As the bible says, in the end there will be a day when He starts to reign here.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
They were not His nations before that time. In fact we see that all nations were worshipping Satan. (by worshipping the beast)

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Not in a way that would take over the world. Only Jesus can do that and will. That has zero to do with reigning over kingdoms of the world. You can have or think you have all the power one can imagine, you will still not be reigning over this doomed world. Even the two witnesses in the end who actually will have great power will not be ruling here.

 

[power1]

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ. There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid, and runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

They are both offered the gift of eternal life by Jesus. The Jews who are now saved are Christians. However, after Jesus comes in the air to gather together all of us, there is still a world down there. In that world there soon will be new believers. Both Jews and Gentiles. Many untold millions of believers. There will still be a nation called Israel that will be attacked and etc etc as prophesy tells us. Most of the Jewish people in this world will be killed. One of the main purposes of the AntiChrist is to kill them. It will get to the point that unless God stepped in, they would all be killed. However, He does return to save them. All the living remnant in Israel at that time gets saved. It is those people that will be restored to that land as promised from all over the world. That has yet to happen, it was not in 1948. What would be 'unbiblical' is you claiming God would not honour promises in His word.

No one could surely fail to notice the absolute wholeness of this body and its singular nature.

I already explained that we are all one in Christ. That does not mean that the remnant of Jews after the Tribulation will not be protected and have Him destroy all their enemies, and give them that land as promised! They will not be any less in Christ at that time than any other believer.
Don't try to frame the argument as one or the other!

The Holy Spirit draws Jew and Gentile alike to Jesus and into His one and only body the Church.

There is no church when they get saved so that is irrelevant! It seems your confusion is based primarily on a rejection of the Rapture.

Dispensationalists do their best to divide the people of God

Not true if you mean that they accept that God will do what He promised. In no way does all Israel getting saved in the end mean they are 'divided' from all other believers! Your rejection of the truth of the Rapture has led to all sorts of bogus claims, distorted ideas, and confused doctrines and interpretations. It also led to a bunch of false accusations against other believers.

if in Paul's thought the third pair (male and female) is not erased, why should it be concluded that the first pair (Jew and Greek) is erased?” (Zionism in Pauline Literature).

Nothing is 'erased'. Jesus is added to a saved Israel. That means they are then in the family of God also. Are you jealous that He will restore them to that land? Why is there a problem with Jesus loving them also, and also keeping all His promises to them? There is no hint or claim that the saved remnant will not be saved by belief in Jesus. Did you think that all rewards had to be identical? Some will deserve more rewards than others. Some have desires of their hearts given that maybe some others would not find would be their first choice. For example, I would not really be interested in moving from New Jerusalem to the stinking land of Israel in the mid east on earth! Especially when there is a big clean up for years going on, and etc. Yet those remnant who get saved in the end will love it! They will see God Personally kill all their enemies at last. They will be restored to the promised land at last, secure, happy, saved, and in plenty and perfect peace. Did you think that would take something away from you?

Paul is simply highlighting the fact that none of these contrasting groups carry any special favor, religious privilege or spiritual entitlement on the grounds of their respective identities.

Of course not. No one says anything different.
Gentiles will not be saved because they are gentiles nor Jews because they are Jews! But a remnant of Jews (and multitudes of Gentiles also of course) will be saved one day in the end because they finally believe in Jesus. They get saved the same way anyone else does.

Dispensationalists would give us the impression we are dealing with two different God’s – Yahweh in the Old Testament and Jesus in the new. But that is not true.

False. Bible believers know that the whole bible is about Jesus. They know He was there in Eden, and the Exodus and etc etc. They know He keeps His promises though.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The chapter starts out telling us when it is talking about

Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh

It is very clear that it is when Jesus returns and that time.
Zechariah 14:3
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
It also makes it crystal clear with other specifics of that time that did not happen yet of course.
Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
So, no, it certainly was not history.

Trying to hammer things to make it sort of sound like all this was fulfilled is not good. Yes, we could also say that a partial fulfillment of some aspects of this great and detailed prophesy about the end of days were fulfilled, such as that some did look on Him whom they pierced at the time of crucifixion. But there are even more specifics that show us when the prophesy is about primarily.

Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

That did not happen. There is no possibility that we could try to say this was history.

As for supporting how all Israel will be saved one day, that is easy.

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Zech 8 And the word of the Lord of hosts came, saying, 2 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: sI am jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I am jealous for her with great wrath. 3 Thus says the Lord: tI have returned to Zion and uwill dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, vand Jerusalem shall be called the faithful city, wand the mountain of the Lord of hosts, the holy mountain.

Zechariah 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

That day in Zechariah is always the First Advent. The NT verifies this, as I demonstrated. It forbids Premil. Maybe you would be the first Premil to do a comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not in the sense that God is ruling the world and nations today as it is in heaven. That is not what the verse was talking about. Jesus won the victory over death and sin and Satan. Only when He returns to earth will He remove Satan from it and rule here. As a matter of fact we see that He sends Satan and his angels TO earth in the end.


Ruling in believers. Not ruling the nations. As the bible says, in the end there will be a day when He starts to reign here.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
They were not His nations before that time. In fact we see that all nations were worshipping Satan. (by worshipping the beast)

Not in a way that would take over the world. Only Jesus can do that and will. That has zero to do with reigning over kingdoms of the world. You can have or think you have all the power one can imagine, you will still not be reigning over this doomed world. Even the two witnesses in the end who actually will have great power will not be ruling here.

Your fight is with the inspired text. It shows that Satan was banished to earth after the binding of Satan through the first resurrection (Revelation 20) and the manchild being caught up to his throne (Revelation 12).

 

[sovereigngrace]

They are both offered the gift of eternal life by Jesus. The Jews who are now saved are Christians. However, after Jesus comes in the air to gather together all of us, there is still a world down there. In that world there soon will be new believers. Both Jews and Gentiles. Many untold millions of believers. There will still be a nation called Israel that will be attacked and etc etc as prophesy tells us. Most of the Jewish people in this world will be killed. One of the main purposes of the AntiChrist is to kill them. It will get to the point that unless God stepped in, they would all be killed. However, He does return to save them. All the living remnant in Israel at that time gets saved. It is those people that will be restored to that land as promised from all over the world. That has yet to happen, it was not in 1948. What would be 'unbiblical' is you claiming God would not honour promises in His word.

I already explained that we are all one in Christ. That does not mean that the remnant of Jews after the Tribulation will not be protected and have Him destroy all their enemies, and give them that land as promised! They will not be any less in Christ at that time than any other believer.
Don't try to frame the argument as one or the other!
There is no church when they get saved so that is irrelevant! It seems your confusion is based primarily on a rejection of the Rapture.

Not true if you mean that they accept that God will do what He promised. In no way does all Israel getting saved in the end mean they are 'divided' from all other believers! Your rejection of the truth of the Rapture has led to all sorts of bogus claims, distorted ideas, and confused doctrines and interpretations. It also led to a bunch of false accusations against other believers.


Nothing is 'erased'. Jesus is added to a saved Israel. That means they are then in the family of God also. Are you jealous that He will restore them to that land? Why is there a problem with Jesus loving them also, and also keeping all His promises to them? There is no hint or claim that the saved remnant will not be saved by belief in Jesus. Did you think that all rewards had to be identical? Some will deserve more rewards than others. Some have desires of their hearts given that maybe some others would not find would be their first choice. For example, I would not really be interested in moving from New Jerusalem to the stinking land of Israel in the mid east on earth! Especially when there is a big clean up for years going on, and etc. Yet those remnant who get saved in the end will love it! They will see God Personally kill all their enemies at last. They will be restored to the promised land at last, secure, happy, saved, and in plenty and perfect peace. Did you think that would take something away from you?

Of course not. No one says anything different.
Gentiles will not be saved because they are gentiles nor Jews because they are Jews! But a remnant of Jews (and multitudes of Gentiles also of course) will be saved one day in the end because they finally believe in Jesus. They get saved the same way anyone else does.


False. Bible believers know that the whole bible is about Jesus. They know He was there in Eden, and the Exodus and etc etc. They know He keeps His promises though.

You are reading too many Left Behind novels. Where are your Scriptures for everything you allege?

 

[Guojing]

They are both offered the gift of eternal life by Jesus. The Jews who are now saved are Christians. However, after Jesus comes in the air to gather together all of us, there is still a world down there. In that world there soon will be new believers. Both Jews and Gentiles. Many untold millions of believers. There will still be a nation called Israel that will be attacked and etc etc as prophesy tells us. Most of the Jewish people in this world will be killed. One of the main purposes of the AntiChrist is to kill them. It will get to the point that unless God stepped in, they would all be killed. However, He does return to save them. All the living remnant in Israel at that time gets saved. It is those people that will be restored to that land as promised from all over the world. That has yet to happen, it was not in 1948. What would be 'unbiblical' is you claiming God would not honour promises in His word.

I
Well already explained that we are all one in Christ. That does not mean that the remnant of Jews after the Tribulation will not be protected and have Him destroy all their enemies, and give them that land as promised! They will not be any less in Christ at that time than any other believer.
Don't try to frame the argument as one or the other!
There is no church when they get saved so that is irrelevant! It seems your confusion is based primarily on a rejection of the Rapture.

Not true if you mean that they accept that God will do what He promised. In no way does all Israel getting saved in the end mean they are 'divided' from all other believers! Your rejection of the truth of the Rapture has led to all sorts of bogus claims, distorted ideas, and confused doctrines and interpretations. It also led to a bunch of false accusations against other believers.


Nothing is 'erased'. Jesus is added to a saved Israel. That means they are then in the family of God also. Are you jealous that He will restore them to that land? Why is there a problem with Jesus loving them also, and also keeping all His promises to them? There is no hint or claim that the saved remnant will not be saved by belief in Jesus. Did you think that all rewards had to be identical? Some will deserve more rewards than others. Some have desires of their hearts given that maybe some others would not find would be their first choice. For example, I would not really be interested in moving from New Jerusalem to the stinking land of Israel in the mid east on earth! Especially when there is a big clean up for years going on, and etc. Yet those remnant who get saved in the end will love it! They will see God Personally kill all their enemies at last. They will be restored to the promised land at last, secure, happy, saved, and in plenty and perfect peace. Did you think that would take something away from you?

Of course not. No one says anything different.
Gentiles will not be saved because they are gentiles nor Jews because they are Jews! But a remnant of Jews (and multitudes of Gentiles also of course) will be saved one day in the end because they finally believe in Jesus. They get saved the same way anyone else does.


False. Bible believers know that the whole bible is about Jesus. They know He was there in Eden, and the Exodus and etc etc. They know He keeps His promises though.

Well said, it appears you are distinguishing between the nation of Israel, and the Body of Christ.

Am I correct in that observation?

 

[Timtofly]

These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man. This does not mean there are 2 kings, 2 kingdoms or 2 thrones. No. There are two aspects to Christ’s kingship - human and divine.

In His Davidic kingship He rules the Israel of God - the redeemed of God; in His divine kingship He rules all creation. These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man.

Are you saying there is a spiritual throne in Jerusalem and we just cannot see it? When did the angels come at the time it was set up? How does this throne interact with current reality?