Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Fervent]

Unbelievable. You have never read about the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and Israel's army destroying every living thing in the Canaan cities?

Don't you know? Someone has to have invented a way to ignore taking the Bible at face value.

 

[Der Alte]

Something you made up, because it's not in the Bible.

Have you ever read the entire New Testament in addition to the laundry list of out-of-context proof texts?

Hebrews 10:28-31
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

"It is mine to avenge; I will repay,""The Lord will judge his people.""It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Doesn't sound like universal reconciliation to me.
ETA;
Jesus mentioned a fate worse than death three times.

“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
“woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
“But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

 

[Der Alte]

Don't you know? Someone has to have invented a way to ignore taking the Bible at face value.

Stop that! I just snorted coffee through my nose and it smarts.

 

[Hmm]

Unbelievable. You have never read about the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and Israel's army destroying every living thing in the Canaan cities?

As I say, I would need to study the scholarship surrounding these passages before I would feel able to offer a useful opinion. It's not a question of whether or not I have read them in isolation and formed my own maverick and uniformed opinion about them, unbelievable though that may seem to you.

 

[Fervent]

As I say, I would need to study the scholarship surrounding these passages before I would feel able to offer a useful opinion. It's not a question of whether or not I have read them in isolation and formed my own maverick and uniformed opinion about them, unbelievable though that may seem to you.

The Bible is written for common men, in simple terms and vulgar tongues. Placing it in the realm of needing advanced scholarship as if it is some esoteric piece is contrary to the revelation of God. The only reason to become overly reliant on scholar's opinions is to look for inventions to circumvent the simple understandings.

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible is written for common men, in simple terms and vulgar tongues. Placing it in the realm of needing advanced scholarship as if it is some esoteric piece is contrary to the revelation of God. The only reason to become overly reliant on scholar's opinions is to look for inventions to circumvent the simple understandings.

And to argue against those Hell no! attempts to wrest scripture trying to show "What the Bible really says."

 

[Hmm]

The only reason to become overly reliant on scholar's opinions is to look for inventions to circumvent the simple understandings.

No-one's talking about becoming "overly reliant on scholars opinion". You quoted passages that state God kills children etc and challenged me if I believe that. I don't and I made that decision all by little self without relying on scholars. But my response to you was that I would not be able to offer an opinion of any worth untill I had studied the scholarship around this passage. I'm not sure why that's so challenging for you. It's common sense to me.

 

[Fervent]

No-one's talking about becoming "overly reliant on scholars opinion". You quoted passages that state God kills children etc and challenged me if I believe that. I don't and I made that decision all by little self without relying on scholars. But my response to you was that I would not be able to offer an opinion of any worth untill I had studied the scholarship around this passage. I'm not sure why that's so challenging for you. It's common sense to me.

Right, you're looking for an escape from taking the text at face value. Some way to maintain an illusion of relying on the Bible by having scholars twist it into something you find palpable.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Was God forgiving in Gen 7 when He destroyed everything on the earth; men, women, old, young, children, infants except for Noah, his family and the animals he had on the Ark?
Was God forgiving when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains; men, women, old, young, children, infants except for Lot and his family?
Was God forgiving when He commanded Israel to go into all the Canaanite cities and destroy every living thing; men, women, old, young, children, infants?

Please point out how forgiving was part of any of those narratives. I only recall that prior to the flood of Noah, God regretted that He had made man. I don't think forgiving entered into it, those things simply needed doing.

 

[Der Alte]

Please point out how forgiving was part of any of those narratives. I only recall that prior to the flood of Noah, God regretted that He had made man. I don't think forgiving entered into it, those things simply needed doing.

I was responding to this comment by Hmm, "Does the idea of God punishing anyone make sense anyway? Doesn't He forgive us without punishing us first because that was remitted for us on the cross?"
Maybe you guys should get together and coordinate your stories. Just sayin'.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I was responding to this comment by Hmm, "Does the idea of God punishing anyone make sense anyway? Doesn't He forgive us without punishing us first because that was remitted for us on the cross?"
Maybe you guys should get together and coordinate your stories. Just sayin'.

That's a clever way to NOT deal with my post.

 

[Der Alte]

That's a clever way to NOT deal with my post.

What's to deal with? I replied to Hmm, you asked a question about that post, I answered the question. What am I missing?

 

[atpollard]

The Bible is written for common men, in simple terms and vulgar tongues. Placing it in the realm of needing advanced scholarship as if it is some esoteric piece is contrary to the revelation of God. The only reason to become overly reliant on scholar's opinions is to look for inventions to circumvent the simple understandings.

I agree, but some of the hyperbole can get tricky … do you hate your mother like Jesus commanded? Have you plucked out an eye recently? … so SOME scholarship just to get a second opinion (or multitude of counselors) is not a terrible idea.

However, the basic message seems both clear enough and repeated often enough that there should be little doubt about the important parts.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree, but some of the hyperbole can get tricky … do you hate your mother like Jesus commanded? Have you plucked out an eye recently? … so SOME scholarship just to get a second opinion (or multitude of counselors) is not a terrible idea.
However, the basic message seems both clear enough and repeated often enough that there should be little doubt about the important parts.

A good quasi rule to remember is "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
The converse of that is, "If the plain sense is nonsense, one should seek another sense." Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus called him "petros"/stone. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Maybe they were just loud and bombastic.

 

[Servus]

Have you ever read the entire New Testament in addition to the laundry list of out-of-context proof texts?

Yes. Have you?

Hebrews 10:28-31
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
"It is mine to avenge; I will repay,""The Lord will judge his people.""It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Doesn't sound like universal reconciliation to me.
ETA;
Jesus mentioned a fate worse than death three times.
“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
“woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
“But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

Heb 10:29 is a question, not a statement. You're going to have to explain how Mt. 18:6, 26:24 and Lk. 10:12 ties in with Heb 10 because it looks like grasping to me. I don't see this as any stronger or less out of context than what's produced by the UR-ites.

And please, for Pete's sake, use paragraphs like everyone else does.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes. Have you?'

Yes! I have been teaching and preaching through the Bible since LBJ was POTUS

Heb 10:29 is a question, not a statement. You're going to have to explain how Mt. 18:6, 26:24 and Lk. 10:12 ties in with Heb 10 because it looks like grasping to me. I don't see this as any stronger or less out of context than what's produced by the UR-ites.

So the writer of Hebrews was lying about punishment worse than death without mercy. It was something that never would or did happen? Just a boogey man to frighten the readers?
Mt. 18:6, 26:24 and Lk. 10:12 and Heb 10:9 are all fates worse than death. Guess Jesus was lying about Mt. 18:6, 26:24 and Lk. 10:12 too.
Did Jesus spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent circumstances?

And please, for Pete's sake, use paragraphs like everyone else does.

I do. Except when I am quoting, then I leave the quoted material in the form it is in the original.

 

[Servus]

Don't you know? Someone has to have invented a way to ignore taking the Bible at face value.

Do you agree with every doctrine and practice that was formed by taking the Bible at face value?

 

[Servus]

And to argue against those Hell no! attempts to wrest scripture trying to show "What the Bible really says."

What doctrine doesn't attempt to show what scripture really says?

 

[Servus]

Yes! I have been teaching and preaching through the Bible since LBJ was POTUS

So has Charles Stanley. Yes somehow he's wrong and you're right. Put another way, what you say against others, can be said against you.

So the writer of Hebrews was lying about punishment worse than death without mercy. It was something that never would or did happen? Just a boogey man to frighten the readers?

He was asking a question.

Mt. 18:6, 26:24 and Lk. 10:12 and Heb 10:9 are all fates worse than death. Guess Jesus was lying about Mt. 18:6, 26:24 and Lk. 10:12 too.
Did Jesus spend a lot of time talking about nonexistent circumstances?

So far you've been avoiding giving an explanation of how you reached your conclusions. I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm just asking you to expound some.

 

[Servus]

The Bible is written for common men, in simple terms and vulgar tongues. Placing it in the realm of needing advanced scholarship as if it is some esoteric piece is contrary to the revelation of God. The only reason to become overly reliant on scholar's opinions is to look for inventions to circumvent the simple understandings.

If that's the case, why are there so many different doctrines? Why are there so many debates all throughout CF about what the Bible says?