Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

He does not reign on earth now. Just check the news.

Where does it say He has to?

The Op shows proof of current heavenly fulfilment.

 

[power1]

Where does it say He has to?

The Op shows proof of current heavenly fulfilment.

Great. He does rule there and soon will here also.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Great. He does rule there and soon will here also.

Yes. On the perfect new glorified sin-free death-free and goat-free earth.

 

[power1]

Yes. On the perfect new glorified sin-free death-free and goat-free earth.

No. There will be problems by the end of that time, so that rebels gather together to try to kill the saints who live there at that time. No one says they might not have livestock.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No. There will be problems by the end of that time, so that rebels gather together to try to kill the saints who live there at that time. No one says they might not have livestock.

We are in Revelation 20 now. Where in that chapter does it say Christ is reigning on earth?

 

[power1]

We are in Revelation 20 now. Where in that chapter does it say Christ is reigning on earth?

There are said to be more prophesies about the second coming than the first coming of Jesus. So I am not sure why you would think we should limit ourselves to a chapter? Anyhow just before the chapter we see the stage is set and context given.
15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
The nations are on earth, do you disagree? In chapter 20, we see that He does rule in that 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In case anyone has the slightest doubt of when this is.. Zech 14 is talking about that time when He comes.

Zechariah 14:9
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord , and his name one.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There are said to be more prophesies about the second coming than the first coming of Jesus. So I am not sure why you would think we should limit ourselves to a chapter? Anyhow just before the chapter we see the stage is set and context given.
15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
The nations are on earth, do you disagree? In chapter 20, we see that He does rule in that 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In case anyone has the slightest doubt of when this is.. Zech 14 is talking about that time when He comes.

Zechariah 14:9
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord , and his name one.

They are reigning now in heaven. Check the Op. Jesus will shepherd the nations at the end as he separates the sheep from the goats. That is the end of the wicked and corruption. In Premil, it is the same old same old and ends in a complete debacle as the wicked over the Jesus and the glorified saints.

 

[power1]

They are reigning now in heaven. Check the Op. Jesus will shepherd the nations at the end as he separates the sheep from the goats. That is the end of the wicked and corruption. In Premil, it is the same old same old and ends in a complete debacle as the wicked over the Jesus and the glorified saints.

Of course God reigns in heaven. The idea is, as Jesus said, 'Your kingdom come' so that He will also rule here. The way the goats are separated when Jesus returns is that they die. The only ones left will be those who chose Jesus. That includes Israel who will, in the end (those left alive) all be saved.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Of course God reigns in heaven. The idea is, as Jesus said, 'Your kingdom come' so that He will also rule here. The way the goats are separated when Jesus returns is that they die. The only ones left will be those who chose Jesus. That includes Israel who will, in the end (those left alive) all be saved.

Matthew 6:10 says, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven”

Some Premillennialists try to employ the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 as support for their belief that the kingdom is to be a future physical temporal kingdom that will be set up on this sin-cursed earth for 1000 years. However, they do err in their basic understanding of the character of the kingdom AND do wrongly interpret this familiar prayer, misapplying the meaning of its wording.

Firstly, we must realise that every other request in this prayer is immediate and current in that it relates to the ‘here and now’. It is also personal and particular in that it has an intimate effect upon the actual individual making the petition. It is therefore a cohesive prayer that is totally and fully achievable in the life of the disciple making it. This prayer in full is therefore evidently answerable and realisable to the child of God in this life.

· “Give us this day our daily bread” (v11).
· “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors” (v12).
· “Lead us not into temptation” (v13).
· “Deliver us from evil” (v13).

There is no contextual warrant then to divorce “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” from the undoubted harmony and overall make-up of the rest of the prayer. Unfortunately, some premillennialists manipulate the passage to make it sound as if it reads ‘Thy kingdom come…in earth, as it is in heaven’ thus conveniently omitting or glossing over the inspired and vital words “Thy will be done” as if they are not in it. The passages reads:

· “Thy kingdom come” (v10a).
· “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” (v10b).

It is thus a harmonious interrelated petition which is fully realized in the life of the Church generally and the believer individually in which they see the will of God manifested and performed on this earth “as it is in heaven.” It is also a request to see the Kingdom of God (which is everywhere else described as a spiritual eternal kingdom) manifested in and through the believers’ life experientially. It is NOT a detached distant request to see a future temporal earthly millennial kingdom manifested after Christ’s Second Coming.

N. T. Wright writes in The Lord’s Prayer as a Paradigm of Christian Prayer: “The presence of the kingdom meant that God’s anointed Messiah was here and was at work — that he was, in fact, accomplishing, as events soon to take place would show, the sovereign and saving rule of God. The future of the kingdom was the time when justice and peace would embrace one another and the whole world — the time from which perspective one could look back and see that the work had, indeed, begun with the presence and work of the anointed leader.”

“To pray ‘your kingdom come’ at Jesus’ bidding, therefore, meant to align oneself with his kingdom movement and to seek God’s power in furthering its ultimate fulfillment. It meant adding one’s own prayer to the total performance of Jesus’ agenda. It meant celebrating in the presence of God the fact that the kingdom was already breaking in, and looking eagerly for its consummation. From the centrality of the kingdom in his public proclamation and the centrality of prayer in his private practice, we must conclude that this kingdom prayer grew directly out of and echoed Jesus’ own regular praying.”

This is simply an individual’s petition. The kingdom God can be manifested through us as individuals because the kingdom of God is within. I see this as a request for the power of God to be displayed through us – nothing more, nothing less.

The simple import of this much-misinterpreted aspect of this prayer is that God would make His Kingdom manifest in all its power and glory in the life of the supplicant and that God’s Sovereign will would be manifested on this earth as in heaven through His praying people. In fact, the parallel reading in Luke 11:2 declares, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.”

The Greek tense in both texts reinforces the fact that this relates to the ongoing manifestation of the kingdom on this earth. It is written in the aorist active imperative – in the present tense. So it cannot just be limited to a future happening but rather a continuous progression.

This thinking simply emanates out of a flawed notion of the kingdom; a view nowhere expounded by Christ in Scripture. In fact, the part of this petition that some Bible students selectively use in support of the idea of a literal thousand-year reign on earth after the second coming of Christ, simply says, “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” Thus, fitting in beautifully with the immediate nature of the overall prayer petition and its personal significance to the one making the petition.

Entering in to that spiritual kingdom in this life brings an immediate realisation in the ‘here and now’ and on this earth of true “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14:17) and is decisively personal to the recipient. Many Premillennialists, every time they see the term kingdom, automatically think ‘future, temporal and visible’ whereas the kingdom exists NOW and is current, eternal and spiritual. During His earthly ministry, Christ addressed the fallacy of a literal earthly kingdom, saying, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation” (Luke 17:20).

The subject of Christ’s (example) prayer and the specific reference to “kingdom” in that prayer relates to the same spiritual kingdom about which He continually referred to in His earthly ministry.

That kingdom was not physical as many Jews envisaged but spiritual. It could only be entered in spiritually through the Christian new birth.

When we pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” we are praying that “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” would be manifested in us and around us; that God would be given His place and that unrighteousness would be banished. When we pray “Thy kingdom come” we are praying for heaven to come down in supernatural power in our midst – just like at Pentecost. This is a petition for the glory of God to be seen in our world.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Of course God reigns in heaven. The idea is, as Jesus said, 'Your kingdom come' so that He will also rule here.

He is ruling here as a vast number of people that nobody can count have been rescued from the kingdom of darkness and transferred to his reigning Kingdom of light since his cross to the second coming.

[ Quote power1]
The way the goats are separated when Jesus returns is that they die. The only ones left will be those who chose Jesus. ]

Yes this is true.
They die the second death and are thrown into the fire. Matt 25:31-. Those who chose Jesus are indeed the only ones left.

 

[power1]

Matthew 6:10 says, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven”

Some Premillennialists try to employ the Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 as support for their belief that the kingdom is to be a future physical temporal kingdom that will be set up on this sin-cursed earth for 1000 years.

1000 years is temporary. They were right I guess. There will still be a need to save the saints on the earth surrounded by enemies and inspired by Satan to rebel in the end of that 1000 years. If that is not sin, do explain what it is?

However, they do err in their basic understanding of the character of the kingdom AND do wrongly interpret this familiar prayer, misapplying the meaning of its wording.

We shall see.

Firstly, we must realise that every other request in this prayer is immediate and current in that it relates to the ‘here and now’.

So what? Here and now we also are to look forward to His kingdom on earth that is coming one day. Right now it is only inside us.

It is also personal and particular in that it has an intimate effect upon the actual individual making the petition. It is therefore a cohesive prayer that is totally and fully achievable in the life of the disciple making it. This prayer in full is therefore evidently answerable and realisable to the child of God in this life.

Looking forward and desiring His coming rule here one day is very much about this life.

There is no contextual warrant then to divorce “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” from the undoubted harmony and overall make-up of the rest of the prayer. Unfortunately, some premillennialists manipulate the passage to make it sound as if it reads ‘Thy kingdom come…in earth, as it is in heaven’ thus conveniently omitting or glossing over the inspired and vital words “Thy will be done” as if they are not in it. The passages reads:

No divorce needed. It looks forward to the day we are married officially.

It is thus a harmonious interrelated petition which is fully realized in the life of the Church generally and the believer individually in which they see the will of God manifested and performed on this earth “as it is in heaven.” It is also a request to see the Kingdom of God (which is everywhere else described as a spiritual eternal kingdom) manifested in and through the believers’ life experientially. It is NOT a detached distant request to see a future temporal earthly millennial kingdom manifested after Christ’s Second Coming.

It is not done on earth as it is in heaven actually and never will be until He comes. You were mistaken.

N. T. Wright writes in The Lord’s Prayer as a Paradigm of Christian Prayer: “The presence of the kingdom meant that God’s anointed Messiah was here and was at work — that he was, in fact, accomplishing, as events soon to take place would show, the sovereign and saving rule of God.

Wright was wrong! Jesus did not start ruling the world when He was here then. Not even close. Totally inapplicable and off base.

The future of the kingdom was the time when justice and peace would embrace one another and the whole world — the time from which perspective one could look back and see that the work had, indeed, begun with the presence and work of the anointed leader.”

False. That time has not come yet. On earth it is certainly not done as it is in heaven, period.

“To pray ‘your kingdom come’ at Jesus’ bidding, therefore, meant to align oneself with his kingdom movement and to seek God’s power in furthering its ultimate fulfillment

No such invented thing. Only when it is done here as it is done in heaven could that prayer be fulfilled. It did not say it DID already come. It says pray it will.

The simple import of this much-misinterpreted aspect of this prayer is that God would make His Kingdom manifest in all its power and glory in the life of the supplicant and that God’s Sovereign will would be manifested on this earth as in heaven through His praying people.

More unbiblical invented nonsense. Pray all you like, this world is not heaven or like heaven. Never will be until His kingdom comes.

In fact, the parallel reading in Luke 11:2 declares, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.”

Same thought. We wait and pray for the day that will be the case.

The Greek tense in both texts reinforces the fact that this relates to the ongoing manifestation of the kingdom on this earth.

No. Your preferred interpretation does that.

It is written in the aorist active imperative – in the present tense. So it cannot just be limited to a future happening but rather a continuous progression.

The great I AM is coming. When that happens His rule will be very present tense. It is not now.

Entering in to that spiritual kingdom in this life brings an immediate realisation in the ‘here and now’ and on this earth of true “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost”

It mentions no 'realization in people's heads' at all actually. The fact is that this world was and is not as heaven is, period. The prayer is that it will be one day.

(Romans 14:17) and is decisively personal to the recipient.

We are to personally look forward to that time when it will be done on earth as in heaven. In other words when Jesus returns.

Many Premillennialists, every time they see the term kingdom, automatically think ‘future, temporal and visible’ whereas the kingdom exists NOW and is current, eternal and spiritual. During His earthly ministry, Christ addressed the fallacy of a literal earthly kingdom, saying, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation” (Luke 17:20).

There is also a taste of the kingdom now within US. That is because He is in us. He is not here in Person ruling the earth as part of His kingdom yet.

The subject of Christ’s (example) prayer and the specific reference to “kingdom” in that prayer relates to the same spiritual kingdom about which He continually referred to in His earthly ministry.

The kingdom in it's full, when He returns is that same kingdom as is in us now. However now we only see through a glass darkly. In addition, most of the world does not have Him in them! You cannot say His kingdom has come to earth and it is now like heaven. That should be patently obvious.

That kingdom was not physical as many Jews envisaged but spiritual. It could only be entered in spiritually through the Christian new birth.

It will be physical! He will return in that same body that He rose from the dead with. The earth is very physical! Nations also! The kingdom of God cannot be limited to the inner experiences and presence of God today. Nor is that what Jesus was talking about in that prayer.

When we pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” we are praying that “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” would be manifested in us and around us; that God would be given His place and that unrighteousness would be banished.

Then you are praying for nothing, since that will not be until His kingdom actually comes here. Only when He rules will it be done on earth as it is done in heaven!

When we pray “Thy kingdom come” we are praying for heaven to come down in supernatural power in our midst – just like at Pentecost. This is a petition for the glory of God to be seen in our world.

No. We are praying for that day when He returns and all nations and all the earth will be ruled by Him Personally. Until then, this world is in hellish shape. What we see going on is not how it is in heaven!

So be careful badmouthing those believers that you thought were wrong. You were wrong.

 

[power1]

He is ruling here as a vast number of people that nobody can count have been rescued from the kingdom of darkness and transferred to his reigning Kingdom of light since his cross to the second coming.

So? That is not the kingdom coming to earth so that earth is ruled like heaven. That is seeing through a glass darkly. Then we shall see face to face. Then all nations will obey. The whole earth will be ruled like heaven.

[ Quote power1]
The way the goats are separated when Jesus returns is that they die. The only ones left will be those who chose Jesus. ]

Yes this is true.
They die the second death and are thrown into the fire. Matt 25:31-. Those who chose Jesus are indeed the only ones left.

Actually the great white throne judgment is after the thousand years. The lake of fire is not until after the 1000 years.

 

[jeffweedaman]

So? That is not the kingdom coming to earth so that earth is ruled like heaven. That is seeing through a glass darkly. Then we shall see face to face. Then all nations will obey. The whole earth will be ruled like heaven.

The Lord is clearly ruling now as satans goods are being transferred into the Kingdom of light now. The strong man of darkness must already be bound.

[ Actually the great white throne judgment is after the thousand years. The lake of fire is not until after the 1000 years.]

Yes.
The second death IS the lake of fire and Jesus makes this judgment at his coming...,



31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[sovereigngrace]

Of course God reigns in heaven. The idea is, as Jesus said, 'Your kingdom come' so that He will also rule here. The way the goats are separated when Jesus returns is that they die. The only ones left will be those who chose Jesus. That includes Israel who will, in the end (those left alive) all be saved.

Where does Revelation 20 say anything about Israel? Who are the mortals that escape the wrath of God on what grounds?

 

[sovereigngrace]

So? That is not the kingdom coming to earth so that earth is ruled like heaven. That is seeing through a glass darkly. Then we shall see face to face. Then all nations will obey. The whole earth will be ruled like heaven.

Actually the great white throne judgment is after the thousand years. The lake of fire is not until after the 1000 years.

Premils fail to see that David’s earthly kingdom, reign and throne was only an imperfect type of Christ's heavenly kingdom, reign and throne. They fail to fully comprehend that we have moved away from the Old Testament shadow and type into the fullness of the New Testament reality.

The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His Divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven), the place where with the kingdom is centred and administrated. That is why Matthew rightly frequently described the kingdom of God as the Kingdom of heaven. Notwithstanding, it also includes the full extent of true Church, the spiritual temple of God or the body of Christ, on earth. It is therefore the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness is pre-eminent. Romans 14:17-18 says, “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.”

When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined, He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation. Luke 17:20-21 records an interesting discourse between Christ and the Pharisees on the subject of the Kingdom of God, saying, He was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”

Jesus answered “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21).

The Lord revealed, in His response, that the Kingdom of God – His Kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendour, impressive power and magnitude. It was, rather, a spiritual Kingdom, which could only be spiritually entered. The Kingdom of God is not a physical temporal kingdom that can be naturally observed or enjoyed but rather a spiritual kingdom, which is spiritually entered.

John Gill says of this passage, “it [the Kingdom of God] reigns, through righteousness, unto eternal life; and by it, Christ, as king of saints, dwells and reigns in his people. Now this is not to be understood of the Scribes and Pharisees, as if they had any such internal principle in them, who were as painted sepulchres, and had nothing but rottenness and corruption in them.”

Jesus, whilst speaking to Pilate shortly before His death, declared, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice” (John 18:36-37).

No longer would God’s Kingdom be restricted to the physical nation of Israel. From now on it would be open to a spiritual nation, comprised of people from all nations, kindred’s and tongues.

Jesus asked the Jews in Matthew 21:42-44, saying, “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

The physical dimension of the kingdom had now become a spiritual one in which Christ would be the sole King. 1 Corinthians 4:20 says, “the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.”

The Kingdom of God exists wherever the King – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His intimate spiritual jurisdiction. His Kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s Kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom.

Many Christians today, like many Jews before them, are mistakenly looking forward to a physical reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth. Such people, who call themselves Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly Kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is NOT coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

 

[power1]

The Lord is clearly ruling now as satans goods are being transferred into the Kingdom of light now. The strong man of darkness must already be bound.

No. He is bound when Jesus returns. He is loosed on the earth before that. Hardly as it is in heaven.

Yes.
The second death IS the lake of fire and Jesus makes this judgment at his coming...,

Says...who? Chapter and verse that says the second death is when Jesus returns? The wicked are killed. Then after the 1000 years they rise to get judged. Then the second death and lake of fire.

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

That says nothing about the lake of fire. The only mention of the lake of fire is after the great judgment of all the dead after the 1000 years.

 

[power1]

Where does Revelation 20 say anything about Israel? Who are the mortals that escape the wrath of God on what grounds?

Who said anything about REV 20 but you? That is not where it tells us about Israel getting saved.

 

[power1]

Premils fail to see that David’s earthly kingdom, reign and throne was only an imperfect type of Christ's heavenly kingdom, reign and throne.

What they do or do not do is not really anything that interests me. It should be obvious that that sinner David was not presiding over the earth.

The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His Divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule

Except you just made that up. The kingdom of God in us today presides over us, we would hope at least to a great extent. It does not rule the world. He is coming back for that bit.

. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven), the place where with the kingdom is centred and administrated. That is why Matthew rightly frequently described the kingdom of God as the Kingdom of heaven. Notwithstanding, it also includes the full extent of true Church

In a sense yes. However that has zero to do with Jesus ruling the earth one day, or the Lord's prayer.

, the spiritual temple of God or the body of Christ, on earth. It is therefore the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God

Not in any way is that correct. God is not ruling this world right now. It is nothing like heaven! Only in the hearts of some few people that are believers does the kingdom exist on earth right now and it sure is not ruling.

When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined, He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation. Luke 17:20-21 records an interesting discourse between Christ and the Pharisees on the subject of the Kingdom of God, saying, He was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”

Jesus answered “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21).

It came invisibly. That does not mean it came totally or that He returned to take over and rule. It means that He is in us, so that His kingdom is also in us even in this wicked world.

The Lord revealed, in His response, that the Kingdom of God – His Kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendour, impressive power and magnitude.

At that time of course not. That is why He is returning, so that all the kingdoms of this world are become His kingdom! That is not now or thousands of years ago.

It was, rather, a spiritual Kingdom, which could only be spiritually entered.

Then, yes. However as He explained He went to prepare a place for us we would enter! Then that place would come down to earth one day! Really. Yes it is a real city of real measurements, and real materials that is really coming down to earth.

John Gill says of this passage, “it [the Kingdom of God] reigns, through righteousness, unto eternal life; and by it, Christ, as king of saints, dwells and reigns in his people. Now this is not to be understood of the Scribes and Pharisees, as if they had any such internal principle in them, who were as painted sepulchres, and had nothing but rottenness and corruption in them.”

It reigns IN us. NOT over the earth right now. Because He (it) reigns IN us, we have eternal life That does not mean all is well on earth also and identical to heaven!!

Jesus, whilst speaking to Pilate shortly before His death, declared, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice” (John 18:36-37).

Then it was not of this world. However He is coming back, and is going to live here forever. So His kingdom will be very much on this world.

No longer would God’s Kingdom be restricted to the physical nation of Israel. From now on it would be open to a spiritual nation, comprised of people from all nations, kindred’s and tongues.

It is open to us and we even partake of it inside our hearts. That has nothing to do with His kingdom coming here so that earth will then be as it is in heaven.

The physical dimension of the kingdom had now become a spiritual one in which Christ would be the sole King. 1 Corinthians 4:20 says, “the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.”

A king not of this world who went up to be with the Father in heaven. One day He returns and will bring ensure He (and therefore His kingdom) rules this earth and makes it like it was in heaven.

The Kingdom of God exists wherever the King – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His intimate spiritual jurisdiction.

That is not earth right now! He went to heaven remember? When He returns He will exercise jurisdiction.

His Kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s Kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom.

His kingdom includes us. Not the earth right now in a way where He rules here. It is clear that the prince of this world currently has jurisdiction over nations. So God's will is NOT being done here as it is in heaven now. Not on earth as a whole.

Many Christians today, like many Jews before them, are mistakenly looking forward to a physical reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth.

If they read and believe the bible they are. The mistake is certainly not theirs.

Such people, who call themselves Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly Kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem.

Right, notice where His feet land when He returns? That would be a mountain in Israel.

They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is NOT coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

That is right about Him destroying the wicked. However, there will still be nations here. So what does that seem to tell us? It says that untold multitudes will be saved in the Tribulation. Even if many or most of their fellow countrymen were not saved and died, they will still be here!

 

[sovereigngrace]

Who said anything about REV 20 but you? That is not where it tells us about Israel getting saved.

There is only one channel that God has ordained whereby Israelis can come to Christ and that is within the Church (true Israel). When Jesus comes it is too late for everyone. God uses the terms “Israel,” “circumcision,” “Jews,” Jerusalem, Zion (Sion) and “children of the Abraham” in both a natural earthly sense and a spiritual heavenly sense in Scripture. When He uses them in a natural sense He is talking specifically about the natural Hebrew descendant; when He uses them in a spiritual context He is referring exclusively of the elect of God – God’s true people, those that have entered into salvation by simple faith.

God has joined believing Jews and Gentiles from this New Testament era together with believing Jews and Gentiles from the Old Testament era and made them one in Christ. You see them both being joined together into one spiritual entity.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What they do or do not do is not really anything that interests me. It should be obvious that that sinner David was not presiding over the earth.
Except you just made that up. The kingdom of God in us today presides over us, we would hope at least to a great extent. It does not rule the world. He is coming back for that bit.


In a sense yes. However that has zero to do with Jesus ruling the earth one day, or the Lord's prayer.
Not in any way is that correct. God is not ruling this world right now. It is nothing like heaven! Only in the hearts of some few people that are believers does the kingdom exist on earth right now and it sure is not ruling.


It came invisibly. That does not mean it came totally or that He returned to take over and rule. It means that He is in us, so that His kingdom is also in us even in this wicked world.

At that time of course not. That is why He is returning, so that all the kingdoms of this world are become His kingdom! That is not now or thousands of years ago.


Then, yes. However as He explained He went to prepare a place for us we would enter! Then that place would come down to earth one day! Really. Yes it is a real city of real measurements, and real materials that is really coming down to earth.

It reigns IN us. NOT over the earth right now. Because He (it) reigns IN us, we have eternal life That does not mean all is well on earth also and identical to heaven!!

Then it was not of this world. However He is coming back, and is going to live here forever. So His kingdom will be very much on this world.

It is open to us and we even partake of it inside our hearts. That has nothing to do with His kingdom coming here so that earth will then be as it is in heaven.


A king not of this world who went up to be with the Father in heaven. One day He returns and will bring ensure He (and therefore His kingdom) rules this earth and makes it like it was in heaven.

That is not earth right now! He went to heaven remember? When He returns He will exercise jurisdiction.

His kingdom includes us. Not the earth right now in a way where He rules here. It is clear that the prince of this world currently has jurisdiction over nations. So God's will is NOT being done here as it is in heaven now. Not on earth as a whole.
If they read and believe the bible they are. The mistake is certainly not theirs.

Right, notice where His feet land when He returns? That would be a mountain in Israel.

That is right about Him destroying the wicked. However, there will still be nations here. So what does that seem to tell us? It says that untold multitudes will be saved in the Tribulation. Even if many or most of their fellow countrymen were not saved and died, they will still be here!

These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man. This does not mean there are 2 kings, 2 kingdoms or 2 thrones. No. There are two aspects to Christ’s kingship - human and divine.

In His Davidic kingship He rules the Israel of God - the redeemed of God; in His divine kingship He rules all creation. These are two aspects of the one kingship - He is both God and man.