Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[2PhiloVoid]

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[Hmm]

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!

 

[Der Alte]

I did go astray because I took my eyes off Christ. He went after me and brought me back.

That was while you were still alive, right? What would have happened if you had remained in a state of rebellion?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

!

 

[Der Alte]

I do too but I think the word "punishment" is superfluous and probably not particularly helpful. You could just say "correction" or "education" rather than "corrective punishment" or "educative/remedial punishment". They would mean the same thing in the universalist paradigm.

But that ain't what the word "κολασιν"/kolasin means. According to the EOB and BDAG.

κολάζω fut. κολάσω; 1 aor. mid. ἐκολασάμην. Pass.: 1 fut. κολασθήσομαι; aor. 3 pl. ἐκολάσθησαν LXX; pf. inf. κεκολάσθαι (s. three next entries) penalize, punish (so Trag., Pla.+; also OGI 90, 28; PSI 446, 14; PRyl 62, 9) act. τινά someone lit., of the punishment of slaves Hs 9, 28, 8. In imagery do someone an injury, of polytheists who penalize their cult images by locking them up Dg 2:8. In an apocalyptic place of punishment are οἱ κολάζοντες ἄγγελοι ApcPt 6:21b (Chariton 4, 2, 7 οἱ κολάζοντες=‘constables, police’; Sallust. 19 p. 34, 15 δαίμονες κολάζοντες).— Mid. (Aristoph., Vesp. 405; Pla., Protag. 324c; 3 Macc 7:3; ApcEsdr 1:11 p. 25, 4 Tdf.; Just., A II, 2, 9; 11; 16) Ac 4:21.—Mostly pass. of the punishment of Christians 1 Pt 2:20 v.l.; Dg 5:16; 6:9; 7:8; 10:7; MPol 2:4. Of the Last Judgment 2 Pt 2:9. βασάνοις 2 Cl 17:7 (on the dat., cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 90 §377 κ. θανάτῳ; Polyaenus 3, 9, 56; Lucian, Dial. Mort. 17, 2; Jos., Ant. 18, 314 κ. πληγαῖς.—Just., A II, 1, 2 ἐν πυρί). δισσῶς be punished doubly Hs 9, 18, 2. Of hell οἱ κολαζόμενοι ἐκεῖ ApcPt 6:21a. (Of punishment by God: TestAsh 6:2; ApcEsdr 1:11; Just., D. 88, 5; Diod S 16, 32, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 3; Dio Chrys. 59 [76], 5; Aesop, Fab. 77 P.=127 H. ὑπὸ θεῶν κολάζονται; oft. in ins in FSteinleitner, D. Beicht 1913, p. 10ff; LRobert, Nouvelles Inscriptions de Sardes ’64, 24ff; LXX; Jos., Bell. 2, 163; cp. Theoph. Ant., 2, 36 [p. 196, 24]). Aristotle’s limitation of the term κόλασις to disciplinary action Rhet. 1, 10, 17 is not reflected in gener. usage.— DELG s.v. κόλος 3. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 554–555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[Servus]

That was while you were still alive, right? What would have happened if you had remained in a state of rebellion?

According to the well known Baptist pastor, teacher and theologian named Charles Stanley, I would have lost some of my heavenly rewards.

 

[Servus]

No, it doesn't only work if it is a single benefit. The gospel is the hope worth dying for, the benefits that precede death are trivial in comparison to what the martyrs laid down their life for. If that hope is not an exclusive one, then the gospel that the martyrs believed is void. They laid down their lives and kept the gospel for nothing.

What do you consider to be the gospel?

 

[Servus]

I bristle at the word "punishment".
Although I understand that punishment can be used to correct behavior.

But I see the restorative process, though painful emotionally (wailing and gnashing of teeth), to not be painful physically. Which raises questions about what sort of body we enter the afterlife with. Although, if we can wail and gnash our teeth, that says plenty right there.

I imagine that the restoration of those in need will be like the wood, hay and stubble that burns, leaving the precious metals, etc. And the one left with nothing, as one who escapes through the flames. (total loss, but saved)

DBH used the word "chastisement".

 

[Der Alte]

According to the well known Baptist pastor, teacher and theologian named Charles Stanley, I would have lost some of my heavenly rewards.

Maybe he does not have the book of Hebrew in his Bible.

Hebrews 10:28-31
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

A punishment worse than death without mercy. This ain't talking about someone on the sidelines who only heard the gospel. "someone ...who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,"

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

* * * I imagine that the restoration of those in need will be like the wood, hay and stubble that burns, leaving the precious metals, etc. And the one left with nothing, as one who escapes through the flames. (total loss, but saved)

Wonderful words but they do not appear as you have quoted them out-of-context.
Where does the Bible ever say that unrighteous people are saved by having their common, ordinary, mundane works burned up?

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.​

These verses clearly show that Paul is not talking to/about all mankind but only to “laborers together with God,””God's husbandry,””God's building” “who build on the foundation of Christ” vss, 9-12.
Paul mentions this foundation four times. Vs. 11 excludes any work not on the foundation of Christ.
The phrases “every man,””no man,””any man,” throughout this passage refer to the group in vss. 9-10, NOT all mankind.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon [the foundation of Christ], he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

The work mentioned in these vss. is NOT the common, ordinary, mundane works of all unsaved mankind but the work of Christians building on the foundation of Christ. Man is NEVER saved by works.
And vs. 15 does not say anyone is saved by fire. It says, “Yet so as by fire.”

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Vs. 17 clearly refutes UR in this passage. All mankind is not saved, those who defile the temple will be destroyed.
This passage is NOT speaking about all mankind no matter how UR-ites try to manipulate it.
Nowhere is it written that anyone is saved by fire or that the loss of common, ordinary, mundane works of unsaved mankind will save anyone.

 

[Servus]

Maybe he does not have the book of Hebrew in his Bible.

Hebrews 10:28-31
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

A punishment worse than death without mercy. This ain't talking about someone on the sidelines who only heard the gospel. "someone ...who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them,"

That's your interpretation of how it works. Why should I accept your interpretation over his? He even outranks you by having been born when Herbert Hoover was in office

Ask Dr.Stanley; Can I Be Saved? Then Backslide And Lose My Salvation? (5Min

 

[Der Alte]

That's your interpretation of how it works. Why should I accept your interpretation over his? He even outranks you by having been born when Herbert Hoover was in office

GIGO. FYI neither Charles nor Andy, his son, Stanley are the be all, end all, authority on the Bible. Unlike you and other UR-ites I don't just look for something said by someone, somewhere that supports my assumptions/presuppositions I review multiple sources.

Vincent Word Studies Hebrews 10:30​

We know him that hath said (οἴδαμεν γὰρ τὸν εἰπόντα)
The retribution (τιμωρία) is certain, because assured by the word of God in Scripture.
Vengeance (ἐκδίκησις)
An unfortunate translation, since it conveys the idea of vindictiveness which does not reside in the Greek word. It is the full meting out of justice to all parties. The quotation is an adaptation of the lxx of Deu_32:35. The second citation is literally from lxx of Deu_32:36.
Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
Hebrews 10:30
We know him that said (oidamen ton eiponta). God lives and is true to his word. He quotes Deu_32:35 (cf. Rom_12:19). For ekdikēsis see Luk_18:7. God is the God of justice. He is patient, but he will punish.
And again (kai palin). Deu_32:36.
Keep on with the little smilies. You should know by now I never say anything i can't back up.

 

[Lazarus Short]

DBH used the word "chastisement".

"Chastisement" to "punishment" is like what I have seen over and over in the KJV:

"judgment" changed to "condemnation" as shown by the marginal notes

or

"condemnation" changed to "damnation" again, as shown by the marginal notes.

The KJV's own marginal notes have been a factor in my decision to reject ECT.

 

[Der Alte]

"Chastisement" to "punishment" is like what I have seen over and over in the KJV:
"judgment" changed to "condemnation" as shown by the marginal notes
or
"condemnation" changed to "damnation" again, as shown by the marginal notes.
The KJV's own marginal notes have been a factor in my decision to reject ECT.

Have you ever tried checking a Greek lexicon for the correct translation of Greek words?
They are somewhat expensive but the 1957 edition of BAGD, as it was known then, is available free online for review. It is not downloadable. Individual pages can be copied and saved. Drawback the Greek does not display correctly.
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

 

[Saint Steven]

DBH used the word "chastisement".

Perhaps that combines the healing I suggested and the education @Hmm suggested. ???

 

[Saint Steven]

Gound point, healing is probably the best word to use. Perhaps education, and correction in the sense of "making right", is part of that though because we all have to reach the point where we freely and gladly confess Christ as Lord. We have to learn something about God, and unlearn a lot too probably, to be able to do this.

@MMXX was suggesting the word chastening. A bit KJV, but seems better than punishment. I like the aspects of reproof, take to task, refine or purify.

chasten
chā′sən
transitive verb

1. To correct by punishment or reproof; take to task.
2. To restrain; subdue.
3. To rid of excess; refine or purify.

Synonyms:
chastise, castigate, objurgate, correct, moderate, temper, tame, subdue, alter, bawl out, berate, call down, call on the carpet, change, chew out, chew up, chide, dress down, have words, jaw, lambast, lambaste, lecture, modify, rag, rebuke, remonstrate, reprimand, reproof, scold, take to task, trounce

 

[Lazarus Short]

Have you ever tried checking a Greek lexicon for the correct translation of Greek words?
They are somewhat expensive but the 1957 edition of BAGD, as it was known then, is available free online for review. It is not downloadable. Individual pages can be copied and saved. Drawback the Greek does not display correctly.
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

My argument is not with the Greek, but with the KJV. Thank you for the heads-up.

 

[Fervent]

What do you consider to be the gospel?

The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Der Alte]

My argument is not with the Greek, but with the KJV. Thank you for the heads-up.

The online lexicon I linked to works with the KJV too. You could check to see if a word in the KJV is mistranslated or not.

 

[Hmm]

@MMXX was suggesting the word chastening. A bit KJV, but seems better than punishment. I like the aspects of reproof, take to task, refine or purify.

chasten
chā′sən
transitive verb

1. To correct by punishment or reproof; take to task.
2. To restrain; subdue.
3. To rid of excess; refine or purify.

Synonyms:
chastise, castigate, objurgate, correct, moderate, temper, tame, subdue, alter, bawl out, berate, call down, call on the carpet, change, chew out, chew up, chide, dress down, have words, jaw, lambast, lambaste, lecture, modify, rag, rebuke, remonstrate, reprimand, reproof, scold, take to task, trounce

I too prefer words like refine, purify, bring to fulfillness, make whole again rather than punish because they imply a positive end result. You can punish someone forever but you can't correct or purify someone forever - at some point the correction or purification is achieved and the process comes to an end. All we know about the process is that it is lasting, and that it may be uncomfortable, just like counselling is inevitably painful to some extent while.you're undergoing it.