Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[jeffweedaman]

BUT….Paul declared that Satan would “soon” be crushed in Romans 16:20. Therefore, I would argue that places Satan’s little season during Paul’s day.

satan's little season seems to involve his activity in all power of deception through the unrestraining of that man of sin.
In other words satan little season does not begin until such a time that the restraining influence is removed . Paul in his day was aware of a restraining influence that inhibites satan from going forth in all power of deception.


2Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

 

[claninja]

satan's little season seems to involve his activity in all power of deception through the unrestraining of that man of sin.
In other words satan little season does not begin until such a time that the restraining influence is removed . Paul in his day was aware of a restraining influence that inhibites satan from going forth in all power of deception.


2Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The problem with this interpretation is that:

1.) lawlessness was already at work
2.) what was being restrained was the “revealing” of the man of sin.

again, in vs 9, “is” is present indicative active. The parousia of the man of sin “is” by the works of Satan. It doesn’t say the parousia of the man of sin “will be” by the works of Satan. The man of sin was already accomplishing by the works of Satan, as indicated by the mystery of lawless already at work in the first century. There is no mention of Satan being restrained in this passage.

Thus:

1.) Satan was prowling like a lion looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8)

2.) Satan was hindering the gospel to the gentiles ( 1 Thessalonians 2:18)

3.) Satan was working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1)

4.) Satan was masquerading as an angel of light ( 2 Corinthians 11:14)

5.) Satan was leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15)

6.) Satan had a throne and authority in pergamum (revelation 2:13)

7.) the presence of the man of sin was existing because of the works of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9)


BUT….Paul declared that Satan would “soon” be crushed in Romans 16:20. Therefore, I would argue that places Satan’s little season during Paul’s day, which would have began when he was cast out at Christ’s resurrection and ascension.

 

[DavidPT]

BUT….Paul declared that Satan would “soon” be crushed in Romans 16:20. Therefore, I would argue that places Satan’s little season during Paul’s day, which would have began when he was cast out at Christ’s resurrection and ascension.

I don't know how you make sense of that, that satan's little season was meaning during Paul's day?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The first thing to note, verses 7-9 involve satan's little season. How does it make sense to apply verse 8 to the first century during Paul's day? During Paul's day when was anyone, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea, ever devoured by fire from God out of heaven, in any sense? And what about verse 10? Did that already take place in Paul's day as well, or should we assume you see a gap of thousands of years following the end of satan's little season unto that of verse 10?

Even using block logic isn't going to help me make sense of this per your take on these things.

 

[DavidPT]

The problem is that your not going to find supporting scripture that the saints are warred against by Satan following their bodily resurrection, regardless of when the 42 months occurs (I believe the 42 months of revelation 11 and 13 are associated with the great tribulation of Jerusalem).

you will, however, find scripture of the saints being persecuted post Christ’s bodily resurrection

I guess it all depends on how one goes about things. If there are passages in the OT where there appears to be a period of time following the 2nd coming, where there has to eventually be an end to what is recorded, otherwise we have to assume all of eternity is meant, and that there is Revelation 20 and the thousand years followed by satan's little season, which then might explain this period of time, I'm not seeing a problem myself.

 

[claninja]

I don't know how you make sense of that, that satan's little season was meaning during Paul's day?

because paul stated Satan was soon to be crushed, not “unrestrained” or “loosed”.

 

[DavidPT]

because paul stated Satan was soon to be crushed, not “unrestrained” or “loosed”.

I get all of that. But what about what is recorded in Revelation 20:7-10, though? How do you make any of that fit Paul's day?

 

[claninja]

I get all of that. But what about what is recorded in Revelation 20:7-10, though? How do you make any of that fit Paul's day?

I’m arguing the following refer to vs 7-9

1.) Satan was prowling like a lion looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8)

2.) Satan was hindering the gospel to the gentiles ( 1 Thessalonians 2:18)

3.) Satan was working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1)

4.) Satan was masquerading as an angel of light ( 2 Corinthians 11:14)

5.) Satan was leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15)

6.) Satan had a throne and authority in pergamum (revelation 2:13)

7.) the presence of the man of sin was existing because of the works of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9)

While Paul’s statement in Romans 16:20 of Satan soon being crushed, refers to revelation 20:10.

 

[DavidPT]

While Paul’s statement in Romans 16:20 of Satan soon being crushed, refers to revelation 20:10.

What I didn't quote I could somewhat see where you were coming from in regards to those things. I for certain can't see where you are coming from here, though. Doesn't this mean no one has to worry about satan anymore, that he was already cast into the LOF in Paul's day, and that he is not presently walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, that he instead is being tormented day and night for ever and ever in the LOF?

 

[claninja]

Doesn't this mean no one has to worry about satan anymore, that he was already cast into the LOF in Paul's day, and that he is not presently walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, that he instead is being tormented day and night for ever and ever in the LOF?

1.) Paul stated the end of the ages had come upon them in 1 corinthians 10:11.

2.) Paul stated the present form of the world was passing away in 1 corinthians 7:31.

3.) Paul stated that Satan would “soon” be crushed in Romans 16:20.

Now, the traditional Amil typically claims it has been the “last days” or “end of the ages” for the last 2,000 years and that “soon” doesn’t mean literally soon, in regards to Christ’s coming. So, for consistency sake, I see no reason for the Amil futurist not to claim Satan’s little season has been ongoing for last 2,000 years.

However, It would seem inconsistent for the Amil futurist to claim “the last days” have been going on for the last 2,000 years, and “soon” in regards to Christ’s coming doesn’t literally mean soon, BUT Satan’s little season is literally short.

again, what we do know is that Paul claimed Satan would soon be crushed. Now, was Paul, with his comments in Romans 16:20, referring to revelation 20:1-3 or revelation 20:10?

 

[Timtofly]

partially agree. Christ’ resurrection is just as important, for if Christ hadn’t been raised, then our faith would be worthless (1 Corinthians 15:17)

Christs ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the spirit fulfilled the law and prophets, raised us from spiritual death and guaranteed our future inheritance.

While we are presently Gods royal priesthood that conquers with the spreading forth of the gospel, we will be rewarded with our inheritance at the resurrection (authority over nations, sitting on christs throne, adoption as sons, right to the tree of life, redeemed bodies)




I would actually disagree that 2 Thessalonians 2 is about Satan’s release.

1.) note the present indicative active verb in vs 9. The man of sins presence “is” according to the works of Satan.

2.) note the present indicative middle verb in vs 7. The mystery of lawlessness “is working”

3.) the man of sin and mystery of lawlessness were already present and working in the first century when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. What was being “restrained” was the “revealing” of the man of sin. Thus, 2 things must occur prior to Christs parousia:

I.) the apostasy
II.) revealing of the man of sin

therefore when the restrainer is removed, the man of sin whose presence “is existing” by the power of Satan would be revealed. Nothing is mentioned of Satan being restrained in 2 Thessalonians 2.


already In the first century:

Satan was hindering the gospel to the nations

satan was prowling like a lion

Satan was masquerading as an angel of light

Satan was working in the sons of disobedience

Satan was leading many astray

The spirit of the antichrist was already present resulting in those leaving the church, that’s how they knew it was the last hour

Satan had authority and a throne in pergamum.

BUT Paul’s hope was that Satan was soon to be crushed (Roman’s 16:20).

I would not jump to the conclusion that the one revealed in verse 4 is the one revealed in verse 8.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth."

Preterist and some amil tend to want this all wrapped up in the first century, yet we are still the church started in the first century, that has to be completed before the revealing. Since the Second Coming is the revealing.

As long as the church is still growing, then the Second Coming is still future. That should be the the point Paul was making.

Satan was the man of sin and son of perdition at work for the last 2500 years. Starting with the Greeks including Antiochus Epiphanies, he was behind the scenes of the powers that be, including the Romans of Paul's day. The point is that at the Second Coming, his then current FP will be revealed. The wicked one to whom is given authority at that point in time. Can any one prove the reveal was in 70AD, and not future?

 

[Timtofly]

Lol Tim.
You initially didnt answer my question regarding who populates your millennium.
Instead you asked me who populated the earth when Adam and Eve sinned...

If you and I believe that we say goodbye to sinners at the second coming then you must believe some of the saved at his second coming must sin again in order to populate the premill scenario.
correct me if I am wrong, and answer my question please.

God planned for Adam and Eve to populate the earth before sin entered. You seem to think sin is necessary to do that. Why?

If God had Adam and Eve to populate the earth prior to sin, why would God not have a plan to populate the earth post sin?

You are the one claiming sin is necessary. I said it was not. That is my answer. Resurrected souls are not resurrected to be sinners. What is the point of that?

 

[jeffweedaman]

If God had Adam and Eve to populate the earth prior to sin, why would God not have a plan to populate the earth post sin?

Because he has made it clear that we are no longer given in marriage in the age to come.
Lk 20.

So who populates your millennium to come lol?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Because he has made it clear that we are no longer given in marriage in the age to come.
Lk 20.

So who populates your millennium to come lol?

Exactly. It is near impossible to get to address how the age to come is perfect and sinless.

 

[Timtofly]

Because he has made it clear that we are no longer given in marriage in the age to come.
Lk 20.

So who populates your millennium to come lol?

The "age to come" started at the Cross. Those currently in Paradise, the church, are as the angels. Those in Christ are the age to come, which do not procreate.

The Resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is not the church. Those in Revelation 20:4 are resurrected to populate the earth. They have not even been beheaded yet. They will not be beheaded until after the Second Coming, and after the final harvest.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1.) Paul stated the end of the ages had come upon them in 1 corinthians 10:11.

2.) Paul stated the present form of the world was passing away in 1 corinthians 7:31.

3.) Paul stated that Satan would “soon” be crushed in Romans 16:20.

Now, the traditional Amil typically claims it has been the “last days” or “end of the ages” for the last 2,000 years and that “soon” doesn’t mean literally soon, in regards to Christ’s coming. So, for consistency sake, I see no reason for the Amil futurist not to claim Satan’s little season has been ongoing for last 2,000 years.

I see an obvious reason for that which is that 2,000 years is not a "little season".

It's one thing to believe that the thousand years is figurative and has been ongoing for almost 2,000 years, as Amils do, but it's another thing altogether to try to claim that Satan's little season has been ongoing for almost 2,000 years.

However, It would seem inconsistent for the Amil futurist to claim “the last days” have been going on for the last 2,000 years, and “soon” in regards to Christ’s coming doesn’t literally mean soon, BUT Satan’s little season is literally short.

I disagree. The Greek word translated as "little" in "little season" is used to refer to a literally small number, so there is no basis whatsoever for thinking that Satan's little season will be anything except for a literal small amount of time. We don't know how much time it is, but I'm certain that 2,000 years would not qualify as a little season.

But, the Greek word translated as "soon" ("shortly", "quickly") in reference to His coming is "tachos" (Strong's G5034) and refers to how fast He will come once He does come. He will quickly descend from heaven and the bodies of His people will be changed quickly (1 Cor 15:50-54) and He will destroy His enemies quickly without delay. Satan will be crushed quickly without delay when he is cast into the lake of fire.

That word is used in this passage:

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly (Greek: tachos). However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”.

This passage is not saying that God would literally bring about justice for His chosen ones in a short amount of time from when Jesus was speaking, but rather is saying that He will for certain bring about justice and when the time comes for that to happen, it will happen quickly.

That is how the word should be understood in any verses that talk about Jesus coming soon or quickly. It will happen so fast that it will be "as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west" (Matt 24:27).

 

[ShineyDays2]

Gog and Magog

Where is Gog and Magog located on a global map?

 

[claninja]

I see an obvious reason for that which is that 2,000 years is not a "little season".

It's one thing to believe that the thousand years is figurative and has been ongoing for almost 2,000 years, as Amils do, but it's another thing altogether to try to claim that Satan's little season has been ongoing for almost 2,000 years.

I disagree. The Greek word translated as "little" in "little season" is used to refer to a literally small number, so there is no basis whatsoever for thinking that Satan's little season will be anything except for a literal small amount of time. We don't know how much time it is, but I'm certain that 2,000 years would not qualify as a little season.

But, the Greek word translated as "soon" ("shortly", "quickly") in reference to His coming is "tachos" (Strong's G5034) and refers to how fast He will come once He does come. He will quickly descend from heaven and the bodies of His people will be changed quickly (1 Cor 15:50-54) and He will destroy His enemies quickly without delay. Satan will be crushed quickly without delay when he is cast into the lake of fire.

That word is used in this passage:

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly (Greek: tachos). However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”.

This passage is not saying that God would literally bring about justice for His chosen ones in a short amount of time from when Jesus was speaking, but rather is saying that He will for certain bring about justice and when the time comes for that to happen, it will happen quickly.

That is how the word should be understood in any verses that talk about Jesus coming soon or quickly. It will happen so fast that it will be "as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west" Matt 24:27).

1.) I agree, the “soon” in Luke 18:8 is a dative noun, thus it it is by means of quickness the chose are avenged.

So, when would God avenge all the righteous blood shed, according to Jesus?

2.) the “soon” in “ I am coming soon” from say revelation 22:7 is an adverb, in this case it typically means without delay. Christ is coming without delay. It doesn’t mean that when he comes it is fast or speedily.


5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay." -helps word studies.

3.) little in Hebrew 10:37, is the same word as revelation 20’s little season. So is one literal and one not? I absolutely agree the little in revelation 20 is literal, how about Hebrews 10:37?

Hebrews 10:36-37
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For,

“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;

 

[DavidPT]

Where is Gog and Magog located on a global map?

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

According to this verse it appears they are located every single place around the globe. One is not going to find them only located in a specific region.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1.) I agree, the “soon” in Luke 18:8 is a dative noun, thus it it is by means of quickness the chose are avenged.

So, when would God avenge all the righteous blood shed, according to Jesus?

That will happen at Christ's future second coming. Unless you think somehow that all the righteous blood shed since 70 AD won't be avenged?

2.) the “soon” in “ I am coming soon” from say revelation 22:7 is an adverb, in this case it typically means without delay. Christ is coming without delay. It doesn’t mean that when he comes it is fast or speedily.

I disagree. The following verse indicates that when He comes it will happen fast/quickly/speedily.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

3.) little in Hebrew 10:37, is the same word as revelation 20’s little season. So is one literal and one not? I absolutely agree the little in revelation 20 is literal, how about Hebrews 10:37?

Hebrews 10:36-37
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For,

“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;

According to Strong's Lexicon on blueletterbible.org, the Greek word translated as "little" in Satan's "little season" is "mikros" and that is a different word than the one translated as "little" in Hebrews 10:37, which is "mikron". If you look up other uses of the Greek word "mikros" you will see that it's always used to refer to a literally small number.

If you want to think that Satan's little season can last at least 2,000 years, so be it, but I don't find that to be plausible.

 

[sovereigngrace]

1.) I agree, the “soon” in Luke 18:8 is a dative noun, thus it it is by means of quickness the chose are avenged.

So, when would God avenge all the righteous blood shed, according to Jesus?

2.) the “soon” in “ I am coming soon” from say revelation 22:7 is an adverb, in this case it typically means without delay. Christ is coming without delay. It doesn’t mean that when he comes it is fast or speedily.


5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay." -helps word studies.

3.) little in Hebrew 10:37, is the same word as revelation 20’s little season. So is one literal and one not? I absolutely agree the little in revelation 20 is literal, how about Hebrews 10:37?

Hebrews 10:36-37
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For,

“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;

You totally misrepresent the whole thrust, weight and detail of Revelation 20 in order to justify Extreme Preterism. The contrast in Revelation 20 is clear. It is comparative. We have a long period (the thousand years) where Satan is bound and a short period (Satan’s little season) where he is released to wreck havoc before the end. Only a bias mind (who he is trying to justify false teaching) would argue otherwise.