Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Spiritual Jew]

Which Amil should I believe here? One Amil is saying that satan's little season and the 42 month reign are not one and the same. Another Amil is saying they are.

LOL. Imagine me asking a question like that about Premils. That would be ridiculous because it's obvious that not all Premils interpret everything the same way. That is the case for Amils as well.

So, when you're talking to SG about this then you should address it according to his interpretation and when you're talking to someone with a different understanding of the 42 months, like me, then you should address it according to how I understand it instead of thinking that all Amils should agree on everything.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You need to try and be more understanding of the way I go about things at times and quit assuming that I'm forgetting what you have said in the past.

Then why do you misrepresent my beliefs so often? If it's not because you've forgotten things I've said before then what is the reason?

A lot of times I simply give my opinion of what something would mean or not mean if this were the case or if that were the case. That's all I'm basically doing a lot of the time.

You don't come across that way. You should try to make that more clear.

And you of all ppl should understand this procedure since you do something similar with Zechariah 14:16-19 for instance. In your mind if that is meaning after the 2nd coming that means it would mean animal sacrificing starts up again. I do not believe it would mean that, yet you do.

But, I don't misrepresent your view that it's talking about a time period after the 2nd coming. If I did that then that would be a comparable thing to what you did, which is misrepresent my understanding of the timing of the 42 months.

The following verse alone undeniably proves that the 42 months in Revelation 13 has to be a short era of time involving the same time period. IOW, for example, it can't span 100 years, nor 200 years, nor 500 years, so on and so on. It obviously has to span less that 100 years for certain. One reason why is the following verse I'm talking about.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Let's assume the 42 month reign spans a longer period of time than a literal 42 months, the same way Amils assume the thousand years span a longer period of time than a literal thousand years. Let's say the 42 month reign began 200 years ago, or maybe 300 years ago, or maybe 500 years ago. Has this 42 month reign already come and went then? Or are we still in this same 42 month period even today? If it already came and went, when did it begin and when did it end?

Revelation 11 indicates that the 42 months/1260 days is a time period during which the two witnesses prophesy and preach. Since I believe the two witnesses represent the church then it only follows that the 42 months/1260 days represents the New Testament time period during which the church has witnessed and preached the gospel to the world.

It seems to me, based on what I read in Revelation 11, that the beast ascends from the bottomless pit when the 42 months/1260 days are over, so that is when I believe Satan's little season occurs. To me, the 3.5 days that the bodies of the two witnesses are on the earth with unbelievers looking on them and celebrating their death symbolizes the witness of the church being silenced during Satan's little season. So, I see the 3.5 days as representing Satan's little season rather than the 42 months/1260 days.

 

[DavidPT]

So, when you're talking to SG about this then you should address it according to his interpretation and when you're talking to someone with a different understanding of the 42 months, like me, then you should address it according to how I understand it instead of thinking that all Amils should agree on everything.

Actually though, it doesn't really matter if all Amils don't understand it the same way. It still works out the same in the end, and that is, it doesn't work at all, regardless.

The 42 months have to occur in the end of this age in order to be followed by the 2nd coming. Martyrdom of saints have to occur during the 42 months since that is what Revelation 13 records. The 42 months can't be meaning after the thousand years when this in Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--is already proving that this 42 months are meaning a time before the thousand years expire. That means this 42 months fit before the beginning of the thousand years, or that they fit during the thousand years. I see the latter making zero sense myself. And finally, there can't be any saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, unless the beast has ascended out of the pit first, and a 2nd one out of the earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Actually though, it doesn't really matter if all Amils don't understand it the same way. It still works out the same in the end, and that is, it doesn't work at all, regardless.

And, yet, you're not able to prove that, at least as it relates to my understanding of it. You think you are proving that, but I don't find your arguments to be convincing.

The 42 months have to occur in the end of this age in order to be followed by the 2nd coming.

When did I say otherwise? That is not where we differ. We differ in when we believe the 42 months begins and what the duration of the 42 months is in reality (you take it literally and I don't). I believe the 42 months end shortly before the end of this age rather than right up until the end of this age. Just read Revelation 11 and you can see that there is a 3.5 day time period (which I don't believe is a literal 3.5 days) that occurs after the 42 months/1260 days end. Do you believe the end of this age comes before that 3.5 days occurs or when the 3.5 days ends?

Martyrdom of saints have to occur during the 42 months since that is what Revelation 13 records.

I didn't say otherwise.

The 42 months can't be meaning after the thousand years when this in Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--is already proving that this 42 months are meaning a time before the thousand years expire.

I already acknowledged that it wouldn't make sense to conclude that the ones who are martyred during the 42 months go on to reign with Christ for a thousand years if the 42 months represents Satan's little season.

That means this 42 months fit before the beginning of the thousand years, or that they fit during the thousand years.

Yes, or that the 42 months represents the same time period as the thousand years, as I believe. Your points all address the belief that the 42 months refer to Satan's little season and don't address my particular belief. Honestly, for you to say that all of the Amil views of the 42 months can't work while proceeding to only try to refute one particular Amil view of the 42 months doesn't make any sense.

I see the latter making zero sense myself. And finally, there can't be any saints recorded in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, unless the beast has ascended out of the pit first, and a 2nd one out of the earth.

That is where you're wrong. We've been over this. The sea in Revelation 13 is not the bottomless pit. You assume the sea and the bottomless pit are the same and that's why you interpret Revelation 13 the way you do. The sea does not represent the bottomless pit, but rather represents the same thing as the many waters that the woman sits on (Rev 17:1) which are "peoples, multitudes, nations and languages" (Rev 17:15).

If you want me to take your interpretation of the 42 months and the beast seriously then you need to tell me your understanding of the beast. Who or what is the beast? If you can't tell me that then why should I believe anything you say about the beast or anything related to the beast such as the 42 months during which the beast makes war with the saints?

 

[claninja]

No, the camp of the saints are those who are alive on earth. It is the church that is being opposed by living unbelievers. This is something that makes no sense about Premil. They actually think that Christ, in all His glory, and His people with IMMORTAL bodies, will be physically attacked. Physically attacking immortals? Really? That is complete nonsense.

Absolutely agreed. There are no other scriptures to support the idea that God’s people will be attacked by Satan and his army, following the resurrection of the saints. Such is completely absent from the gospels and epistles.

 

[claninja]

Maybe if one ignores some of Zechariah 14 and some of Daniel 7, for example, maybe that way there are no Scriptures supporting Premil in regards to this. Sometimes one simply has to logically deduce things since not everything comes right out and plainly says something. If any of Zechariah 14 involves the 2nd coming, it is not unreasonable to assume, regardless that it says no such thing anywhere in that chapter, that the saved dead have been raised and are now in immortal bodies at this point. Then there is the matter of Zechariah 14:16-19. If that chapter involves the 2nd coming, these verses would be meaning post the 2nd coming.

You might be applying block logic to Zechariah 14 rather than step logic. And if so, block logic can never involve step logic as well?

I don't claim to fully understand the concept of block logic, but if it involves grouping similar themes together, why can't any of that also involve chronology of some sort? Doesn't step logic usually involve chronology?

As to Zechariah 14:16-19 if that is meaning post the 2nd coming in the end of this age, that assuming the 2nd coming is recorded in this chapter, but would have been hidden until the NT shed light that Christ's advent involves 2 not 1, comings, anyone that can be threatened with punishment post the 2nd coming for refusing to come up could not possibly be meaning saved saints who have put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming. Nor could Zechariah 14:16-19 possibly be meaning that it will be like that for all eternity, what is recorded in those verses.

The basic interpretation of daniel 7 is found in vs 17-18: there would be four earthly kingdoms, but the saints would receive the kingdom. While the saints are persecuted prior to the receiving of the kingdom, there is no mention of the saints being persecuted after they receive the kingdom. So Daniel 7 doesn’t help the premil position that the bodily resurrected saints of revelation 20:4 are the same as revelation 20:7-9

As for zechariah 14, there is no mention of saints being persecuted following a bodily resurrection. Therefore, it doesn’t help really help in the argument to show that the saints of revelation 20:4 are the same as those in revelation 20:7-9.

 

[claninja]

But where in verses 7-9 does it give the impression that any of the camp of the saints ever die to begin with? The only ones I see dying in those verses are the ones surrounding them. This presents a problem since the 42 month reign of the beast has to happen in the end of this age in order for the beast and false prophet to be alive and active at the time so that they can be cast into the LOF per Revelation 19.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Clearly, there are martyrs during it's 42 month reign. If we compare this to Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---Revelation 13:15 obviously and undeniably explain how and why these in verse 4 are martyred. Verse 4 is not meaning after the thousand years, though. The 42 month reign is meaning in the end of this age, though. The only way to square the texts, the 42 month reign precedes the thousand years not follows it instead. That is Premil not Amil unless your version of Amil could possibly fit a scenario like this? The version of Amil that SG and SJ holds to couldn't possibly fit this scenario.

The problem is that your not going to find supporting scripture that the saints are warred against by Satan following their bodily resurrection, regardless of when the 42 months occurs (I believe the 42 months of revelation 11 and 13 are associated with the great tribulation of Jerusalem).

you will, however, find scripture of the saints being persecuted post Christ’s bodily resurrection

 

[claninja]

This has gotten old. We keep going around and around on this and I'm not interested in repeating myself yet again. So, I'm done from my end. But, can you please tell me what you believe happens to someone immediately after they die? I don't recall you ever addressing that. If you want me to take your view seriously then you need to explain what YOU believe happens when we die instead of me just giving my view over and over again.

I believe the destination of the resurrected saints is heaven, as Christ said he would go to to His fathers house to prepare a place for us and then come again to take us to where he is. I believe this is the “Home” that Paul referred to as the house not made by human hands which would further clothe us. I believe this is where our citizenship is. I believe this is where Christ went as our forerunner. I believe this is the heavenly city we belong to, while we are exiles on earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I believe the destination of the resurrected saints is heaven, as Christ said he would go to to His fathers house to prepare a place for us and then come again to take us to where he is. I believe this is the “Home” that Paul referred to as the house not made by human hands which would further clothe us. I believe this is where our citizenship is. I believe this is where Christ went as our forerunner. I believe this is the heavenly city we belong to, while we are exiles on earth.

When did the reign of the saints in heaven in Rev 20 begin and end? When did the binding of Satan begin and when did/does it finish?

 

[jeffweedaman]

When did the reign of the saints in heaven in Rev 20 begin and end?

The moment Jesus died for our sins. Without delay his shed blood atoned for the sins of the whole world.
The reign doesnt end as we are free from the penalty of our sins when we repent.





[When did the binding of Satan begin and when did/does it finish?]

See above for the beginning. satan lost any claim to the dead when Jesus took the keys of death from him.

Gods righteous Judgment remains...,


Act 17
30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”


Just prior to the second coming he is released into an unrepentant world to seal their doom.

2thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you suggesting that some of us redeemed will marry and have kids ?.

What a miserable failure that we be.

Were Adam and Eve Redeemed? Why are you avoiding the question?

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. Such nonsense. Figures that you'd rely on fallible Greek thought processes for understanding over scripture itself. The idea of an incorruptible, but not immortal, body is laughable. The words immortal and incorruptible mean the same thing. You are trying to change the definitions of words. Paul indicated in 1 Cor 15:50-54 that our bodies will be changed and become incorruptible and immortal at the same time which will be at the last trumpet.

Definitions:

incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying

Clearly, an incorruptible body is immortal and vice versa. Your belief that the body becomes incorruptible first and then immortal at a later time makes no sense.

Because the sense that one deals with the physical and the other deals with the spiritual. Obviously you only distinguish the spiritual when you see fit. Being immortal is the equivalent of being spiritually equal to God, but you seem to think it just means living in eternity.

 

[Timtofly]

The basic interpretation of daniel 7 is found in vs 17-18: there would be four earthly kingdoms, but the saints would receive the kingdom. While the saints are persecuted prior to the receiving of the kingdom, there is no mention of the saints being persecuted after they receive the kingdom. So Daniel 7 doesn’t help the premil position that the bodily resurrected saints of revelation 20:4 are the same as revelation 20:7-9

As for zechariah 14, there is no mention of saints being persecuted following a bodily resurrection. Therefore, it doesn’t help really help in the argument to show that the saints of revelation 20:4 are the same as those in revelation 20:7-9.

That would mean that Revelation 20:7-9 cannot be compared to any other Scripture in the whole Bible and thus a future event, not one mentioned prior to the Second Coming or even about the Second Coming. This point refutes the idea that Revelation 20 is a recap. Revelation 20 stands alone as unique in being an attack on those already participating in a resurrection of any type.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The moment Jesus died for our sins. Without delay his shed blood atoned for the sins of the whole world.
The reign doesnt end as we are free from the penalty of our sins when we repent.





[When did the binding of Satan begin and when did/does it finish?]

See above for the beginning. satan lost any claim to the dead when Jesus took the keys of death from him.

Gods righteous Judgment remains...,


Act 17
30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”


Just prior to the second coming he is released into an unrepentant world to seal their doom.

2thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Amil is true and simple. It makes sense and fits in with multiple other Scripture.

 

[claninja]

The moment Jesus died for our sins. Without delay his shed blood atoned for the sins of the whole world.
The reign doesnt end as we are free from the penalty of our sins when we repent.

partially agree. Christ’ resurrection is just as important, for if Christ hadn’t been raised, then our faith would be worthless (1 Corinthians 15:17)

Christs ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the spirit fulfilled the law and prophets, raised us from spiritual death and guaranteed our future inheritance.

While we are presently Gods royal priesthood that conquers with the spreading forth of the gospel, we will be rewarded with our inheritance at the resurrection (authority over nations, sitting on christs throne, adoption as sons, right to the tree of life, redeemed bodies)

Just prior to the second coming he is released into an unrepentant world to seal their doom.

2thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

I would actually disagree that 2 Thessalonians 2 is about Satan’s release.

1.) note the present indicative active verb in vs 9. The man of sins presence “is” according to the works of Satan.

2.) note the present indicative middle verb in vs 7. The mystery of lawlessness “is working”

3.) the man of sin and mystery of lawlessness were already present and working in the first century when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. What was being “restrained” was the “revealing” of the man of sin. Thus, 2 things must occur prior to Christs parousia:

I.) the apostasy
II.) revealing of the man of sin

therefore when the restrainer is removed, the man of sin whose presence “is existing” by the power of Satan would be revealed. Nothing is mentioned of Satan being restrained in 2 Thessalonians 2.


already In the first century:

Satan was hindering the gospel to the nations

satan was prowling like a lion

Satan was masquerading as an angel of light

Satan was working in the sons of disobedience

Satan was leading many astray

The spirit of the antichrist was already present resulting in those leaving the church, that’s how they knew it was the last hour

Satan had authority and a throne in pergamum.

BUT Paul’s hope was that Satan was soon to be crushed (Roman’s 16:20).

 

[jeffweedaman]

Were Adam and Eve Redeemed? Why are you avoiding the question?

Lol Tim.
You initially didnt answer my question regarding who populates your millennium.
Instead you asked me who populated the earth when Adam and Eve sinned...

If you and I believe that we say goodbye to sinners at the second coming then you must believe some of the saved at his second coming must sin again in order to populate the premill scenario.
correct me if I am wrong, and answer my question please.

 

[jeffweedaman]

I would actually disagree that 2 Thessalonians 2 is about Satan’s release.

1.) note the present indicative active verb in vs 9. The man of sins presence “is” according to the works of Satan.

2.) note the present indicative middle verb in vs 7. The mystery of lawlessness “is working”

3.) the man of sin and mystery of lawlessness were already present and working in the first century when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. What was being “restrained” was the “revealing” of the man of sin. Thus, 2 things must occur prior to Christs parousia:

I.) the apostasy
II.) revealing of the man of sin

therefore when the restrainer is removed, the man of sin whose presence “is existing” by the power of Satan would be revealed. Nothing is mentioned of Satan being restrained in 2 Thessalonians 2.

The mystery of lawlessness was already at work but that man of sin was/is restrained.
At the proper time he will be revealed and so will satans little season in all power of deception for those who refused to love the truth and so be saved.


7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


The appearing of Jesus coming will destroy the revealing of satans activity in all power and deception.


11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness



satan has also been restrained from going forth in all power of deception until the proper time.

 

[sovereigngrace]

partially agree. Christ’ resurrection is just as important, for if Christ hadn’t been raised, then our faith would be worthless (1 Corinthians 15:17)

Christs ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the spirit fulfilled the law and prophets, raised us from spiritual death and guaranteed our future inheritance.

While we are presently Gods royal priesthood that conquers with the spreading forth of the gospel, we will be rewarded with our inheritance at the resurrection (authority over nations, sitting on christs throne, adoption as sons, right to the tree of life, redeemed bodies)




I would actually disagree that 2 Thessalonians 2 is about Satan’s release.

1.) note the present indicative active verb in vs 9. The man of sins presence “is” according to the works of Satan.

2.) note the present indicative middle verb in vs 7. The mystery of lawlessness “is working”

3.) the man of sin and mystery of lawlessness were already present and working in the first century when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians. What was being “restrained” was the “revealing” of the man of sin. Thus, 2 things must occur prior to Christs parousia:

I.) the apostasy
II.) revealing of the man of sin

therefore when the restrainer is removed, the man of sin whose presence “is existing” by the power of Satan would be revealed. Nothing is mentioned of Satan being restrained in 2 Thessalonians 2.


already In the first century:

Satan was hindering the gospel to the nations

satan was prowling like a lion

Satan was masquerading as an angel of light

Satan was working in the sons of disobedience

Satan was leading many astray

The spirit of the antichrist was already present resulting in those leaving the church, that’s how they knew it was the last hour

Satan had authority and a throne in pergamum.

BUT Paul’s hope was that Satan was soon to be crushed (Roman’s 16:20).

... and still are!

 

[claninja]

The mystery of lawlessness was already at work .

correct

but that man of sin was/is restrained.

not really correct. The man of sin’s “revealing” was being restrained, however, his presence was existing already in the first century.

In vs 9, “is” is present indicative active. In other words, the man of sins presence is (presently existing) according to the working of Satan. Only his “revealing” was being restrained until the restrainer would be removed out of the way. How do we know the man of sin existed in the first century? Because the mystery of lawless was already at work in Paul’s “present” day.

The passage makes no mention of Satan being restrained.

 

[claninja]

satan has also been restrained from going forth in all power of deception until the proper time.

sure, but the NT is clear that in the first century:

1.) Satan was prowling like a lion looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8)

2.) Satan was hindering the gospel to the gentiles ( 1 Thessalonians 2:18)

3.) Satan was working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1)

4.) Satan was masquerading as an angel of light ( 2 Corinthians 11:14)

5.) Satan was leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15)

6.) Satan had a throne and authority in pergamum (revelation 2:13)

7.) the presence of the man of sin was existing because of the works of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9)


BUT….Paul declared that Satan would “soon” be crushed in Romans 16:20. Therefore, I would argue that places Satan’s little season during Paul’s day.