Contradicting Teachings

[timothyu]

Preach the gospel? People reluctant to believe, short time and going to fail? Why bother…

But it is fun to be part of a counter-culture and go against the establishment of man.

 

[James_Lai]

But it is fun to be part of a counter-culture and go against the establishment of man.

Who are you talking about and which establishment?

 

[James_Lai]

Hi @James Lai,



Who said 'the whole book is clearly symbolic...' There are prophetic passages in which symbolism was used, such as living animals representing kingdoms. There are metaphorical passages such as God raising up Israel on wings of eagles. But that the whole book is so written, just isn't true.

The ending also uses symbolism and metaphor, but both in the ending and throughout the Scriptures, symbolism refers to a reality of life. The creatures that represented kingdoms were symbolistic, but it represents a reality that kingdoms would rise up for which those symbols refer to. It's not like, "Oh, it's all symbolistic and so it doesn't really mean anything." Similarly, in the end times writings there is a lot of symbolism, but those symbols, while we may not fully understand them as yet, will, for the believer who studies the Scriptures, be seen and understood as they unfold.

For example, the Left Behind series describes the end times as being a day in which all the believers will be raptured, but those who were left on the earth continue to live out the days of the great tribulation. I don't agree with that interpretation, but we won't really be able to say with any certainty who is right until that day comes and we live through the reality of what the Scriptures tell us is the future of things.

But don't be tempted to think that because the Scriptures use symbolism, what it is saying through the use of those symbols is not important and does not reflect a reality. However, for the most part, the old covenant and the new are historic to us. They tell and describe events upon the earth that the people of God have lived through since the beginning of this realm of God's creating. Probably about 10% of the entire Scriptures is prophetic, to us, but just as God has proven over and over again that what He foretells will come to pass...You can trust your life that the 10% will also be fulfilled just as God has told us it will.

God bless,
Ted

I understand. If the ending is symbolic, how can we interpret it? Why is it New Jerusalem, not New Beijing or New Johannesburg for example?

If we take the size to be literal, then we can calculate the maximum number of inhabitants to live there comfortably. It seems there’s no way such city could fit even half of all the people who ever lived… So again it speaks of a narrow gate with the absolute majority of humanity missing out…

If we take Homo Sapiens with their 2 billion years of history, or if we want to include earlier Hominins, then the number is even greater. Homo Erectus, Australopithecines, Neanderthals, Denisovans etc etc

 

[timothyu]

Who are you talking about and which establishment?

The governance of the Kingdom of God vs the governance (the establishment) of worldly man. (opposing cultures)

 

[eleos1954]

Hello.
From another thread, I came up with a question…

Could contradicting teachings cancel each other out in minds of believers and cause lack of passion or idleness? Or worse, cause destructive, counter-productive actions?

For example, I was thinking about
- “love your neighbour and preach the good news to all corners of the world”
- “this world is ending, perhaps any day now. there will be very few saved, the gate is narrow”

You are positively motivated for action only to be told your efforts might be all in vain as total global destruction is imminent.

You’re pushed and pulled at the same time.

Since we know that our mind is way more susceptible to the negatives than the positives, fear has stronger grip on us than love, could it be that such contradicting teachings best to be avoided?

For example, would you write to all churches in the world the following? “Stop teaching the end of the world Right Now! Start teaching possibly a 100,000 year future ahead of us! Every human being eventually hearing the true gospel by our hard work! The Christians one day comprising the 100% of the world’s population!”

Well, that would get you going, what do you think? Not that there isn’t verses that you can base this updated teaching on.

Not “it’s all going to burn” and “no matter what you do, a narrow gate is all we’ll have”… Such ideas are like killing the drive.

It’s like hiring an employee and telling them, “You’ll earn $100k a year but the tax man is arresting our accounts next Friday”… Would you be all hyped up about the $100k income labouring like a bee or rather sit on your hands pretending to be working till your next and only weekly paycheck?

So if we say in math terms.

———————-

Given:

Idea 1 = I1
Idea 2 = I2
I1 and I2 are natural numbers
Human Action = A
A = I1 + I2
Positive idea: + Ix > 0
Negative idea - Ix < 0
Neutral idea Ix = 0
where x ∈ {1,2}

Possible outcomes for A:

1) I1 and I2 both positive

A = + I1 + I2 > 0

Positive human action, its value is greater than each individual idea

2) I1 and I2 both negative

A = - I1 - I2 < 0

Negative human action, its value is lesser than each individual idea

3) I1 is positive and I2 is negative

there are two possible sub-outcomes:

a) If I1 > I2, then

A = + I1 - I2 > 0

Positive human action, its value is lesser than the positive idea I1

b) If I1 < I2

A = + I1 - I2 < 0

Negative human action, its value is greater than the negative idea I2

Do you not know this very day your life could end and your eternal fate is sealed?

2 Corinthians 6:2

Berean Literal Bible
For He says: "In the acceptable time I listened to you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." Behold, now is the time of favor; behold, now is the day of salvation.

 

[ldonjohn]

James, this is the answer to all of your questions. First, give up on yourself, on all of your questions, and turn to God asking Him to show you whatever it is you need from him so that you can find saving faith in Christ and in Him alone.
Then be content with the knowledge God gives you as you progress through the process of sanctification.
You will never know or understand everything about God; you will never understand everything you read in the bible, but God's Spirit will begin to show you the truths found there as you study His Word. He will show you things you need from His Word and help you as you grow in your faith to find peace and contentment.
You will never find real answers to all of you questions by posting on a Christian website. The questions you ask and the responses you receive from other forum members seem to just lead to more questions & more debate.
God's Word has your answers. God said in Jeremiah 29:13 "And you hall seek me, and find me, when you seek me with ll your heart." Turn form yourself and seek God; when you find Him you will then have new perspective on all those contradictions you seem to have found in the bible.
I can say these things because I obeyed Jeremiah 29:13 and and can no longer find those contradictions that bothered me before I became a real believer. Now, if or when I find something that I do not understand or that seems to be a contradiction, I don't fret over it because I know & understand the main message of the bible which is that my sins are forgiven by the finished work of Jesus on the cross and that He made me a new creation in Him when I turned from myself to Him trusting in His promise of John 6:37, "All the Father gives to me will come to me; and him that comes to me I will not cast out." Jesus has no problem getting anyone who will come to Him through that narrow gate.

Regards,

John

 

[James_Lai]

The governance of the Kingdom of God vs the governance (the establishment) of worldly man. (opposing cultures)

Okay thank you, I understand now.

Kingdom is already here?

 

[miamited]

Hi @James Lai,

I understand. If the ending is symbolic, how can we interpret it? Why is it New Jerusalem, not New Beijing or New Johannesburg for example?

Because it is God's city and it will be set where Jerusalem is and will, therefore, be 'new' Jerusalem. If it were going to be set where Beijing is, then it would likely be called 'new' Beijing. As I say, not all of the Scriptures are symbolic. The new city that comes down out of heaven like a bride, is not symbolic. That will be a real city that sets down where Jerusalem is, and it will be set on a 'new' earth, also. The old earth will pass away.

Now, whether that means the entire planet will be destroyed or just the outer shell that existed with sin and all of the issues that arose from that, is something we will have to wait and see. 'New' could mean the entire planet is destroyed and God speaks a new earth into existence just as He did some 6,000 years ago. Or it could mean that the surface is burned up by fire that destroys all that is on the face of the earth and the existing planet is just given a 'new' face.

If we take the size to be literal, then we can calculate the maximum number of inhabitants to live there comfortably. It seems there’s no way such city could fit even half of all the people who ever lived… So again it speaks of a narrow gate with the absolute majority of humanity missing out…

Oh, I'm absolutely positive that the majority of the people who have ever passed over the earth will not be found with the children of God. Yes, Jesus makes it clear that 'only few there be that find it' and he also taught us that many Christians won't be counted in that number either. Now, perhaps you find some fear in that truth. I would encourage that if you do, then you likely need to examine your life to see if you are living as Jesus has asked us to. But you are absolutely correct that the 'majority of humanity' will miss out.

If we take Homo Sapiens with their 2 billion years of history, or if we want to include earlier Hominins, then the number is even greater. Homo Erectus, Australopithecines, Neanderthals, Denisovans etc etc

You likely won't agree with me on this point, and that's ok with me. However, there is no 2 billion years of history. This realm of creation that God created for the life of mankind - to include the entire universe and all that is in and on the earth - is only some 6,000 years old. About 6,000 years ago God spoke into the black inkiness of empty space, to create the earth. Over the next 6 rotations of the earth upon its axis, He built the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Sometime during day 6 He created Adam and we then find a fairly complete genealogy of Adam's line to Abraham and then we are given the years of life from Abraham to Jesus. All of that was about 4,000 years. We have now lived some 2,000 years since Jesus came to us. In fact, the Jewish calendar, which is claimed to be based on the day that God spoke the earth into existence, now stands at 5,782 years. Since I know that everything that God has given me to know came through the Jews, I have great confidence in their calendar. Certainly through old covenant times, the Jews were the people that God chose in order to work His plan throughout the earth.

God bless,
Ted

 

[timothyu]

Kingdom is already here?

It is in those who are in allegiance to it and have repented of the ways of man, seeing the error in focusing on self.

 

[Clare73]

Hello.
From another thread, I came up with a question…
Could contradicting teachings cancel each other out in minds of believers and cause lack of passion or idleness? Or worse, cause destructive, counter-productive actions?

For example, I was thinking about
- “love your neighbour and preach the good news to all corners of the world”
- “this world is ending, perhaps any day now. there will be very few saved, the gate is narrow”

It's not about changing all, it's about calling in the few.

As long as there is one person left on the earth, the work still needs to be done to call him in.

You are positively motivated for action only to be told your efforts might be all in vain as total global destruction is imminent.

You’re pushed and pulled at the same time.

Since we know that our mind is way more susceptible to the negatives than the positives, fear has stronger grip on us than love, could it be that such contradicting teachings best to be avoided?

For example, would you write to all churches in the world the following? “Stop teaching the end of the world Right Now! Start teaching possibly a 100,000 year future ahead of us! Every human being eventually hearing the true gospel by our hard work! The Christians one day comprising the 100% of the world’s population!”

Well, that would get you going, what do you think? Not that there isn’t verses that you can base this updated teaching on.

Not “it’s all going to burn” and “no matter what you do, a narrow gate is all we’ll have”… Such ideas are like killing the drive.

It’s like hiring an employee and telling them, “You’ll earn $100k a year but the tax man is arresting our accounts next Friday”… Would you be all hyped up about the $100k income labouring like a bee or rather sit on your hands pretending to be working till your next and only weekly paycheck?

So if we say in math terms.

———————-

Given:

Idea 1 = I1
Idea 2 = I2
I1 and I2 are natural numbers
Human Action = A
A = I1 + I2
Positive idea: + Ix > 0
Negative idea - Ix < 0
Neutral idea Ix = 0
where x ∈ {1,2}

Possible outcomes for A:

1) I1 and I2 both positive

A = + I1 + I2 > 0

Positive human action, its value is greater than each individual idea

2) I1 and I2 both negative

A = - I1 - I2 < 0

Negative human action, its value is lesser than each individual idea

3) I1 is positive and I2 is negative

there are two possible sub-outcomes:

a) If I1 > I2, then

A = + I1 - I2 > 0

Positive human action, its value is lesser than the positive idea I1

b) If I1 < I2

A = + I1 - I2 < 0

Negative human action, its value is greater than the negative idea I2

 

[James_Lai]

It's not about changing all, it's about calling in the few.

As long as there is one person left on the earth, the work still needs to be done to call him in.

I understand. My point is that the majority of people who accept contradicting teachings, will tend to obey the more powerful one, in this case the imminent doom, therefore becoming idle (or counter-productive) as it’s useless to even begin to perform a task which is known to fail.

If I expect it’s going to rain later tonight, I’m not going to water the lawn.

Of course, there are people who will go into some length to try and find reconciliation of contradicting teachings, but it’s not an easy mental task and the majority of people simply won’t go there.

Those who do find some way to reconcile the contradicting teachings, will be less effective as having less motivation due to internal mental struggles required to upkeep confidence in both contradicting teachings concurrently.

 

[Clare73]

I understand. My point is that the majority of people who accept contradicting teachings, will tend to obey the more powerful one, in this case the imminent doom, therefore becoming idle as it’s useless to even begin to perform a task which is known to fail.

And my point is the born again don't think and operate that way

If I expect it’s going to rain later tonight, I’m not going to water the lawn.

Of course, there are people who will go into some length to try and find reconciliation of contradicting teachings, but it’s not an easy mental task and the majority of people won’t go there.

 

[James_Lai]

And my point is the born again don't think and operate that way

Contradicting ideas result in the stronger one winning out, or people coming up with ways to reconcile the contradictions and keep them both. In the latter case the resulting action is lesser than if there a single, positive idea as the motivator

 

[James_Lai]

It is in those who are in allegiance to it and have repented of the ways of man, seeing the error in focusing on self.

What are the practical steps of being part of the counter-culture?

 

[timothyu]

What are the practical steps

Meaning?

 

[coffee4u]

If urgency is coupled with the belief that a small portion is getting saved, it effectively cancels out the command to preach to all people. Why even bother? An impossible task. Like Cinderella picking out peas and lentils before going to the ball.

So my point is I’m not taking a single teaching, but a set of teachings that are related and can potentially cancel each other out.

In this case, urgency with a prediction of a grand failure…

Yes, the love of maths

That's your take on it.
It makes you lazy, it makes you feel like its an impossible task.
You also love maths

Obviously it does not make me feel that way since I had a completely different take on it and maths makes my eyes glaze over.

Guess what, you are an individual, congratulations.

As was said before, people are individuals and how they react is different so likewise what motivates them is different and what they hear and respond to is different. The world needs all types.

PS. It is also you who find those verses as historic. Other people will have a long list of reasons why it is not historic. Your option isn't worth any more than theirs.

I notice you edited that and changed it to say 'My opinion' and I am glad you did because how that read before sounded like you were hoping for a fight.
I am not invested enough in this topic for a fight.
But my opinion is that the world will end in fire
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
The heavens that are currently there will no longer be there.

Our bodies will be resurrected into a new type of body.
1 Corinthians
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.

The world will be remade back into a paradise and this is where we will live.
Isaiah 65:17-25


New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

That is the whole point of the resurrection. When Jesus rose from the dead he had a new type of body and he promised that we too will be resurrected with new bodies. He wasn't just a spirit, his body could be touched and he ate food, but he could also simply appear and walk through walls. It was a new kind of body.
Luke 24
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me to have.”

Bodies are not designed to live and stay forever in the current heaven they are designed for a new physical world. Heaven isn't the end goal the new world is. God started the world in perfection and it will end in perfection.

For someone who says they are seeking you seem already very closed to your own views and not wanting to hear anything from people who have been Christians for decades.

 

[James_Lai]

Meaning?

what do you do?

 

[timothyu]

what do you do?

Just point out what makes us tick, how it creates all the problems we have, and offer the solution. It's really just a matter of stepping through the looking glass. But the world doesn't take kindly to being told or reminded it is backwards. Didn't work so well for Jesus or the Father.

 

[James_Lai]

Just point out what makes us tick, how it creates all the problems we have, and offer the solution. It's really just a matter of stepping through the looking glass. But the world doesn't take kindly to being told or reminded it is backwards. Didn't work so well for Jesus or the Father.

I think Jesus preached literal physical Kingdom on earth, and Himself as the King. Is this counter culture a real thing or mostly posing? There’s soooo many claims made. Sooo many declarations. All talk. Or is it a serious movement?

 

[timothyu]

I think Jesus preached literal physical Kingdom on earth, and Himself as the King

Eventually a whole new world yes, without man putting our will ahead of the will of God. Can you not think of others instead of seeking gain for yourself at a cost of harming them? That is contrary to how this world made in our image works. Its a way of life, not some church or denominational movement.