Can Salvation be lost?

[A_Thinker]

Jesus says:

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29).

The writer to the Hebrews says that "Without faith, ... it is impossible to please God."

Scripture also says that "faith" is counted as righteousness by God.

Thus, the reality for those of us who have chosen faith in God ... is that we have done good, ... though, undoubtedly, we have also done evil.

God splits the difference ... and saves us according to our faith ...

Matthew 9

27 When Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out and saying, “Son of David, have mercy on us!”

28 And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?”

They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.”

29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.” 30 And their eyes were opened.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I marvel how comfortable you are with contradicting Jesus. For He said ...

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

The Bible sometimes gives us rules of exception. We know this with the Canaanite woman who was persistent despite what Jesus said. So in Matthew 12:31: Jesus is not talking in absolutes in this instance. Again, his words are true, but they are in context to blasphemy of the Spirit. Jesus is not giving us a full record account of every sin that is unforgivable. To do so would only confuse his audience about the point He was making about this one particular unforgivable sin. Also, you would have tear out Hebrews 6:4-6, Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 to make such a belief true. Also, if a believer commits suicide and stays dead, they will also not be forgiven, as well. That is also an unforgivable sin. For many people do not come back from the dead when they commit suicide (even though some do). So suicide is a one way ticket to hell (generally speaking). In other words, I can say that,

“a believer will be forever condemned and there is no way of escape if they commit suicide.” ​

But granted, there is a rule of exception to this statement. They could come back to life and have chance to repent of their sins while they are alive. Nobody can repent of their sins after they are dead. When a person dies, it’s too late (generally speaking). But see…. If you took my words too literally, you would think there is no rule of exception. There is. The same is true with Jesus’ words in Matthew 12:31.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do not believe that people who "grossly set out to live lives of sin" ... ever become saved.

They simply haven't the heart for it ...

I know you probably believe that… but the problem is that what they believe is not all that different than what you believe because you also believe you will always sin in this life (not intending to sin of course) and yet you are saved while you do so. You see sin as accidental in the life of a true Christian but yet you say they will sin again. When? Tomorrow? An hour from now? Every hour? 50 times per week? Then it just makes that person look like the guy who sets out to sin with no remorse over their sin. So I don’t see much of a difference between what you believe and what they believe. Both are a form of justifying sin under God’s grace.

 

[A_Thinker]

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

My earthly father said ... "If you love me, keep my commandments."

And yet, ... he did not cast me out ... when I disobeyed.

God says that He is a better father than any of us ever could be, ... and that He knows how to give good gifts to His children ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do not believe that people who "grossly set out to live lives of sin" ... ever become saved.

They simply haven't the heart for it ...

Let’s say Rick put a gun to Bob’s head and said if you don’t stop sinning gross sins this week (like doing drugs, sleeping around, watching inappropriate content, indulging in witchcraft, watching sinful movies, cussing, etc.) he will come back and kill him and his family. Now, what do you think Bob will do? Will he really have more of an active effort to not sin that week and not even sin? Yes, I would say he would do what it takes because his life is on the line. But if we are forgiven no matter what we do, then how I live does not really matter. I can live it up like the guy who sets out to sin as a way of life like he has a license to sin. For in reality that is what one does when they think they accidentally sin and yet they will always accidentally sin as a way of life and yet they are still saved. The word accidentally sinned is just an excuse to justify sin but on a small level. It’s still justifying sin that God cannot agree with because He is a holy and righteous God. This is why I am afraid those who believe as you do. You cannot see how what you believe is actually immoral.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My earthly father said ... "If you love me, keep my commandments."

And yet, ... he did not cast me out ... when I disobeyed.

God says that He is a better father than any of us ever could be, ... and that He knows how to give good gifts to His children ...

Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Do accursed people go to Heaven? No. And the way we know how to love Jesus according to the Bible is…. Jesus saying, “If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). In other words, if we don’t love Jesus by keeping His commandments, we are accursed. This can also be shown by looking at other verses like 1 John 2:3-4.

 

[A_Thinker]

She was not a seasoned believer. She was a new convert who just came to God's grace and the faith for the first time. So of course nobody can earn their salvation by their good deeds alone without FIRST being saved by God's grace.

Jesus said that "The first shall be last ... and the last shall be first."

In terms of justification for salvation, there was no difference between this young lady ... and a long-time saint of the faith. All are saved utterly, ... by the grace of God.

Jesus gave that to her, and because she was forgiven of a lot of her many sins, she loved a lot in return. I just do not see how that works with your view of Soteriology, though. You basically say you will sin again as a matter of fact.

No ... I do not.

I say ... that God will not cast you away ... because you sin ...

John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My earthly father said ... "If you love me, keep my commandments."

And yet, ... he did not cast me out ... when I disobeyed.

God says that He is a better father than any of us ever could be, ... and that He knows how to give good gifts to His children ...

Gifts can be forfeited. If a person received a car as a free gift, that does not mean they cannot have their free gift taken away if they run red lights, hit pedestrians, and drive smash drunk all the time.

Also, as for God being our Father, and us being a son. Most in your camp say that we never stop being a son and thus we cannot ever perish. But in the parable of the prodigal son, when the son came home and sought forgiveness of his sins with his father, his father said that his son was “dead” and he is “alive again.” Obviously the prodigal son did not die physically. So this is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead spiritually when he was living it up with prostitutes and he became alive again spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with him. James 5:19-20 teaches the same truth.

Jesus said:
“And slaves don't stay in the family forever,…” (John 8:35).

Jesus defines who this slave is.

For Jesus said:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34).

So those who sin in the family of God will be cast out. We see this in Matthew 13:41-42.

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).

Is not a person doing iniquity if they say they will always sin this side of Heaven?

 

[A_Thinker]

Let’s say Rick put a gun to Bob’s head and said if you don’t stop sinning gross sins this week (like doing drugs, sleeping around, watching inappropriate content, indulging in witchcraft, watching sinful movies, cussing, etc.) he will come back and kill him and his family. Now, what do you think Bob will do? Will he really have more of an active effort to not sin that week and not even sin? Yes, I would say he would do what it takes because his life is on the line. But if we are forgiven no matter what we do, then how I live does not really matter. I can live it up like the guy who sets out to sin as a way of life like he has a license to sin

I think that you have an incorrect sense of God's grace.

God doesn't hold a gun to the heads of His children ... and threaten them with death if they sin. That really wouldn't be a very good father ... and God's claim is that He is a better father than any of us ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Do accursed people go to Heaven?

Of course not, ... but people who do love Jesus, as Peter did, may still occasionally sin.

That's why believers are instructed to confess their sins to God ... and to one another.

If believers never sin, ... there would be no need for this instruction ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think that you have an incorrect sense of God's grace.

God doesn't hold a gun to the heads of His children ... and threaten them with death if they sin. That really wouldn't be a very good father ... and God's claim is that He is a better father than any of us ...

This would be true for believers who are not setting out to sin as a way of life and or those who do not say they cannot stop sinning accidentally this side of Heaven. For what do you think happened with Ananias and Sapphira?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course not, ... but people who do love Jesus, as Peter did, may still occasionally sin.

Before you said salvation is not in how good you are any lack of any bad. So this previous statement does not appear to line up with what you are saying now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course not, ... but people who do love Jesus, as Peter did, may still occasionally sin.

As I stated to you before. There is a big difference between somebody who stumbles on occasion on his road to recovery over overcoming their grievous sin in this life vs. the person who justifies sin on some level. You have stated that believers can sin and still be saved. Meaning, they can abide in sin and be saved on some level. But the problem with that view of salvation is God would have to agree with it. But God is holy and righteous and He cannot agree with sin or a plan of salvation that makes room for a person to justify sin.

 

[A_Thinker]

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).

Tares ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think that you have an incorrect sense of God's grace.

God doesn't hold a gun to the heads of His children ... and threaten them with death if they sin. That really wouldn't be a very good father ... and God's claim is that He is a better father than any of us ...

I believe you have an incorrect sense of God’s grace because Titus 2:11-12 says Gods grace teaches to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Your version of grace does not allow for one to live righteously and godly in this present world because you basically say that no believer cannot stop committing grievous sins this side of Heaven. In your view a believer will always commit grievous sin accidentally their whole lives (Which means godly living and righteous living is thus… thrown out the door).

 

[A_Thinker]

Of course not, ... but people who do love Jesus, as Peter did, may still occasionally sin.

Before you said salvation is not in how good you are any lack of any bad. So this previous statement does not appear to line up with what you are saying now.

How so ???

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Tares ...

Right. They are tares. They are tares but they do not know they are tares. Matthew 7 describes believers who thought they did wonderful works in His name and yet Jesus told them to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin). So if a believer does good, and yet they also justify sin, they are not going to make it.

 

[A_Thinker]

Your version of grace does not allow for one to live righteously and godly in this present world because you basically say that no believer cannot stop committing grievous sins this side of Heaven. In your view a believer will always commit grievous sin accidentally their whole lives (Which means godly living and righteous living is thus… thrown out the door).

I have never said this.

And I previously clarified your misunderstanding ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How so ???

You said… “of course not” to…. My question… do accursed people go to Heaven?

This means you are in agreement with me that how one lives is in relation to salvation and it is not solely based on unmerited favor of God’s grace alone (Especially if one lives like the devil or justifies sin in some way). I believe your version of salvation does exactly that (no offense). For to say that we will always sin this side of Heaven and yet we are not intending to sin because it is accidental is an excuse to sin again. It’s still justifying sin under God’s grace. For like I said, if Rick put a gun to Bob’s head and told him he would kill him if he did not stop, would he not stop? So this proves that the whole accidental sinning excuse is a sham. It’s an excuse to sin. A cover up to justify sin under God’s grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have never said this.

And I previously clarified your misunderstanding ...

You said, I quote:

“Every believer sins ... and yet, is still saved by the grace of God.” ~ A Thinker.​

This implies the “a believer will always sin this side of Heaven” statement (Which is popular in today’s candy coated Christianity). For if every believer sins and yet they are still saved then there is no point where a believer does not sin (according to your own words).