Can Salvation be lost?

[A_Thinker]

Believers must confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:7). So Peter obviously confessed (repented) of his sins to the Lord. In fact, he did so with tears. Later the Lord restored him as a result. So it’s not how you start, but how you continue, and finish. “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13). Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life (Revelation 2:10). James 1 says, “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

The problem is that you cannot believe these verses (Unless of course you want to explain them in how they work in your belief). But I am not really expecting you to do that because that would mean one would have to re-write Scripture beyond what it says plainly.

Believers will repent ... as Peter did, many times ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is it your claim that Peter's sin (of denying Christ) was not worthy of spiritual death (though Christ said that He would deny such as these) ?

Well, you don’t seem to understand the concept between a drunk who joins a drug program to overcome their sin of alcoholism with him stumbling on occasion before he in time recovers vs. the alcoholic who joins a drug program having no intention to ever overcome his demon in the bottle (just so that he can please some family members and get money).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Believers will repent ... as Peter did, many times ...

There is a difference between a guy who cheats on his wife and says he is sorry to her (with having no intention of ever stopping because he believes he is a slave to his sin) vs. the guy who actually says he is sorry and makes every effort to stop in cheating on his wife and to be faithful to her. You don’t seem to grasp the difference between the two in regards to morality or the goodness of God.

 

[A_Thinker]

... the alcoholic who joins a drug program having no intention to ever overcome his demon in the bottle (just so that he can please some family members and get money).

This guy has never really bought in. He is a tare ...

 

[A_Thinker]

... a guy who cheats on his wife and says he is sorry to her (with having no intention of ever stopping because he believes he is a slave to his sin)

Once again, no buy in, ... a nonbeliever ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This guy has never really bought in. He is a tare ...

But don’t you believe that a believer can sin and still be saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Once again, no buy in, ... a nonbeliever ...

Most who believe as you do say that a believer will never stop committing sins (that lead to condemnation) this side of Heaven. They can lie, look upon a woman in lust, hate and still be saved while doing so. In fact, a while ago, it seemed like you were defending that position.

 

[A_Thinker]

But don’t you believe that a believer can sin and still be saved?

Every believer sins ... and yet, is still saved by the grace of God.

Believers should strive not to sin. In fact, believers should strive to fully take on the character of Christ. Such is only right and proper for God's children.

But ... they are ultimately still saved by God's unmerited favor ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Most who believe as you do say that a believer will never stop committing sins (that lead to condemnation) this side of Heaven. They can lie, look upon a woman in lust, hate and still be saved while doing so. In fact, a while ago, it seemed like you were defending that position.

Your examples ... are of non-believers.

Even the best of believers, however, still miss the mark on occasion, and James said ... if you miss one, you've in effect broken the whole Law.

We, simply, are not saved (in any way) because of our goodness ... or lack of badness.

We are saved because God loves us ... and we are willing to allow Him to love us.

Recall the example of Hosea and Gomer in the OT. God sent Hosea back after Gomer (who had again become enmeshed in whoredom) ... to illustrate His love for Israel. God never gives up on His own. And He knows who are His own.

Your position leaves you with the issue of deciding where the line is ... where you are no longer perfect/good enough for God. What sins He will forgive ... and what sins He won't.

Jesus said that only one sin was unforgiveable. That means that the rest are forgiveable.

But ... you must be bought in. Your heart must be inclined ... to God. There are plenty of "good" people whose hearts are (nevertheless) not inclined to God. They follow all of the "rules" ... and may even think that their relative "goodness" entitles them ... to a spot at God's table.

God, OTOH, requires that we be willing to acknowledge that we lack the righteousness God requires in ourselves, ... and so, throw ourselves upon God's offer of salvation through Christ's goodness. To think so highly of yourself (i.e. somehow, I have ACHIEVED or MAINTAINED lasting salvation) is, ultimately, a trap ... and will ultimately rob you of the fullness of life in Christ.

Remember reading of Christ's visit with the Pharisees ... when He was approached by the "sinner" woman. She loved Christ ... because He had forgiven her sins ... which were many. Her heart was inclined toward Christ.

OTOH, the "righteous" Pharisees with whom Christ sat ... did not love Him, ... because they thought that they MERITED God's love through their own "goodness". Their hearts ... were not inclined toward Christ ... such that they did not love even the font of LOVE, Himself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Every believer sins ... and yet, is still saved by the grace of God.

Believers should strive not to sin. In fact, believers should strive to fully take on the character of Christ. Such is only right and proper for God's children.

But ... they are ultimately still saved by God's unmerited favor ...

There really is not that much difference between your belief and the belief of those who grossly sin as a way of life and say they believe in Jesus and are saved. Both are turning God’s grace into a license to sin because we know that just breaking even one of God’s commands is enough to cause spiritual condemnation (Unless of course they are able to repent in this life). Adam and Eve sinned one time each and by Adam’s transgression, they fell spiritually from God and needed to be renewed back to God by faith. Ananias and Sapphira each sinned and they were instantly killed for their transgression against God. You are saying that the believer who does not strive to sin and yet will always sin in this life is saved. Yet, the believer who seeks to sin and thinks they are saved is not saved. But both are breaking God’s laws and turning His grace into a license for immorality. For the believer who strives not to sin knows they will sin again, and when they do… they know they are saved while they sin. So they can also be deceived into thinking they can sin all the time grossly and think they are saved. They can easily be deceived into being porn addict and be saved. They can easily be deceived into being a drug addict and be saved. But the point here is that if they justify even one wrong sin even if they chock it up to just sin that they did not intend to do and they strive not to do that sin, they think they are saved while they do that sin, it will just lead to turning sin into a license for immorality but on a smaller scale (Which can turn out to be just as bad as the others who grossly sin and do not care if they sin anymore and say they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Every believer sins ... and yet, is still saved by the grace of God.

Believers should strive not to sin. In fact, believers should strive to fully take on the character of Christ. Such is only right and proper for God's children.

But ... they are ultimately still saved by God's unmerited favor ...

The person that confesses and forsakes their sins will have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). So… stop and think here a moment… if I don’t confess my sins to the Lord Jesus Christ according to 1 John 1:9 (1 John 2:1)… then I am not saved. For I am only forgiven of sin if I confess of my sins to Jesus. For it says IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Also, even by your own words you are basically saying that if a person willfully sets out to sin and believes in Jesus is not saved. But is that not what your belief does? You believe you will sin again as a matter of fact. You are saved by his unmerited favor, and so nothing you do can lead you to lose your salvation. This means you can treat God’s grace as a license to sin. In fact, that is what the mindset is when a person says they will sin again because they cannot help it (even they say they do not intend to sin again). The fact that they declare they will sin again is proof that they are setting out ahead of time that they can turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. So your not truly confessing and forsaking sin as Proverbs 28:13. You may say that you are striving not to sin but that’s not the same as forsaking sin as if to forever put behind you. I am talking about sin that the Bible specifically mentions with warnings of hellfire and condemnation here and not minor faults or transgressions of character.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your examples ... are of non-believers.

Even the best of believers, however, still miss the mark on occasion, and James said ... if you miss one, you've in effect broken the whole Law.

We, simply, are not saved (in any way) because of our goodness ... or lack of badness.

We are saved because God loves us ... and we are willing to allow Him to love us.

Recall the example of Hosea and Gomer in the OT. God sent Hosea back after Gomer (who had again become enmeshed in whoredom) ... to illustrate His love for Israel. God never gives up on His own. And He knows who are His own.

Your position leaves you with the issue of deciding where the line is ... where you are no longer perfect/good enough for God. What sins He will forgive ... and what sins He won't.

Jesus said that only one sin was unforgiveable. That means that the rest are forgiveable.

But ... you must be bought in. Your heart must be inclined ... to God. There are plenty of "good" people whose hearts are (nevertheless) not inclined to God. They follow all of the "rules" ... and may even think that their relative "goodness" entitles them ... to a spot at God's table.

God, OTOH, requires that we be willing to acknowledge that we lack the righteousness God requires in ourselves, ... and so, throw ourselves upon God's offer of salvation through Christ's goodness. To think so highly of yourself (i.e. somehow, I have ACHIEVED or MAINTAINED lasting salvation) is, ultimately, a trap ... and will ultimately rob you of the fullness of life in Christ.

Remember reading of Christ's visit with the Pharisees ... when He was approached by the "sinner" woman. She loved Christ ... because He had forgiven her sins ... which were many. Her heart was inclined toward Christ.

OTOH, the "righteous" Pharisees with whom Christ sat ... did not love Him, ... because they thought that they MERITED God's love through their own "goodness". Their hearts ... were not inclined toward Christ ... such that they did not love even the font of LOVE, Himself.

You say you are not saved by any goodness or lack of badness. So this means you can be like the others who grossly set out to live a life of sin (porn addict, drug addict, practicer of witchcraft, etc.) and still be saved. Again, so by your own words, there really is no difference between the person who lives like the devil and has no desire to stop sinning and says they are saved by a belief in Jesus vs. what you are saying. You say that you will always sin and yet the difference is that you don’t strive to sin. As if that makes it all better. Can you imagine a serial killer not wishing to kill a guy and telling his victim this? Does it make it all better that this serial killer is striving not to sin if he just ends up killing the guy anyways? This serial killer can claim to believe in Jesus, and according to your own words…. He should be saved because he striving not to sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your examples ... are of non-believers.

Even the best of believers, however, still miss the mark on occasion, and James said ... if you miss one, you've in effect broken the whole Law.

We, simply, are not saved (in any way) because of our goodness ... or lack of badness.

We are saved because God loves us ... and we are willing to allow Him to love us.

Recall the example of Hosea and Gomer in the OT. God sent Hosea back after Gomer (who had again become enmeshed in whoredom) ... to illustrate His love for Israel. God never gives up on His own. And He knows who are His own.

Your position leaves you with the issue of deciding where the line is ... where you are no longer perfect/good enough for God. What sins He will forgive ... and what sins He won't.

Jesus said that only one sin was unforgiveable. That means that the rest are forgiveable.

But ... you must be bought in. Your heart must be inclined ... to God. There are plenty of "good" people whose hearts are (nevertheless) not inclined to God. They follow all of the "rules" ... and may even think that their relative "goodness" entitles them ... to a spot at God's table.

God, OTOH, requires that we be willing to acknowledge that we lack the righteousness God requires in ourselves, ... and so, throw ourselves upon God's offer of salvation through Christ's goodness. To think so highly of yourself (i.e. somehow, I have ACHIEVED or MAINTAINED lasting salvation) is, ultimately, a trap ... and will ultimately rob you of the fullness of life in Christ.

Remember reading of Christ's visit with the Pharisees ... when He was approached by the "sinner" woman. She loved Christ ... because He had forgiven her sins ... which were many. Her heart was inclined toward Christ.

OTOH, the "righteous" Pharisees with whom Christ sat ... did not love Him, ... because they thought that they MERITED God's love through their own "goodness". Their hearts ... were not inclined toward Christ ... such that they did not love even the font of LOVE, Himself.

You say you are not saved by any goodness or a lack of badness.

But Jesus says:

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29).

So it simply seems like you are not in agreement with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, things have not changed with the apostle Paul if you are one of those types of believers who thinks things have radically changed when Paul came.

Paul says,

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I don’t believe your belief allows for godliness because it says that one will always sin and they can even be saved while they do so (Which means God would have to agree with sin order to make your view of Soteriology work). Also, your Soteriology does not align with the words of Jesus. Paul says here that if any man teaches otherwise and does not consent (does not agree) with the words of Jesus, they are proud and they know nothing. Can a believer be proud and still be saved? James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your examples ... are of non-believers.

Even the best of believers, however, still miss the mark on occasion, and James said ... if you miss one, you've in effect broken the whole Law.

We, simply, are not saved (in any way) because of our goodness ... or lack of badness.

We are saved because God loves us ... and we are willing to allow Him to love us.

Recall the example of Hosea and Gomer in the OT. God sent Hosea back after Gomer (who had again become enmeshed in whoredom) ... to illustrate His love for Israel. God never gives up on His own. And He knows who are His own.

Your position leaves you with the issue of deciding where the line is ... where you are no longer perfect/good enough for God. What sins He will forgive ... and what sins He won't.

Jesus said that only one sin was unforgiveable. That means that the rest are forgiveable.

But ... you must be bought in. Your heart must be inclined ... to God. There are plenty of "good" people whose hearts are (nevertheless) not inclined to God. They follow all of the "rules" ... and may even think that their relative "goodness" entitles them ... to a spot at God's table.

God, OTOH, requires that we be willing to acknowledge that we lack the righteousness God requires in ourselves, ... and so, throw ourselves upon God's offer of salvation through Christ's goodness. To think so highly of yourself (i.e. somehow, I have ACHIEVED or MAINTAINED lasting salvation) is, ultimately, a trap ... and will ultimately rob you of the fullness of life in Christ.

Remember reading of Christ's visit with the Pharisees ... when He was approached by the "sinner" woman. She loved Christ ... because He had forgiven her sins ... which were many. Her heart was inclined toward Christ.

OTOH, the "righteous" Pharisees with whom Christ sat ... did not love Him, ... because they thought that they MERITED God's love through their own "goodness". Their hearts ... were not inclined toward Christ ... such that they did not love even the font of LOVE, Himself.

The unforgivable sin is speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost. This sin only applies to condemning a person if they are a born again believer. Unbelievers while they can commit this sin cannot be condemned by it because they do not fully realize what they are doing (i.e. they would be sinning in ignorance).

But we cannot isolate verses from the rest of Scripture. Hebrews 6:4-6 is showing that we can also never be forgiven if we reject Jesus as our Savior after having had the Holy Spirit. This does not apply to those who did not have the Spirit.

A person who takes the mark of the beast can never be forgiven ever. For their names were not written in the book of life since the foundation of the world.

So no. There is not only one unforgivable sin. That would be isolating one portion of Scripture over others. Then again, this is not surprising. Your claim that there is only one unforgivable sin is one of the many mantras of popular Christianity.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your examples ... are of non-believers.

Even the best of believers, however, still miss the mark on occasion, and James said ... if you miss one, you've in effect broken the whole Law.

James 2:10 was not talking about all law in general but he was referring to the royal law of love (James 2:8). James is referring to how the brethren were having respect of persons (James 2:9) (Which is violation of God's law of loving others). For the brethren were showing favor to the rich brethren and not to the poor brethren (Thus showing their lack of love). So this is the context of “offend in one point” means. It is offending in breaking the Law of love (the royal law). So it's not talking about minor transgressions. Jesus already established that not all sin leads to spiritual death or condemnation in Matthew 5:22. Check out the AMP translation. For He mentions two sins lead to punishment in earthly courts, and one sin that leads to hellfire.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your examples ... are of non-believers.

Even the best of believers, however, still miss the mark on occasion, and James said ... if you miss one, you've in effect broken the whole Law.

We, simply, are not saved (in any way) because of our goodness ... or lack of badness.

We are saved because God loves us ... and we are willing to allow Him to love us.

Recall the example of Hosea and Gomer in the OT. God sent Hosea back after Gomer (who had again become enmeshed in whoredom) ... to illustrate His love for Israel. God never gives up on His own. And He knows who are His own.

Your position leaves you with the issue of deciding where the line is ... where you are no longer perfect/good enough for God. What sins He will forgive ... and what sins He won't.

Jesus said that only one sin was unforgiveable. That means that the rest are forgiveable.

But ... you must be bought in. Your heart must be inclined ... to God. There are plenty of "good" people whose hearts are (nevertheless) not inclined to God. They follow all of the "rules" ... and may even think that their relative "goodness" entitles them ... to a spot at God's table.

God, OTOH, requires that we be willing to acknowledge that we lack the righteousness God requires in ourselves, ... and so, throw ourselves upon God's offer of salvation through Christ's goodness. To think so highly of yourself (i.e. somehow, I have ACHIEVED or MAINTAINED lasting salvation) is, ultimately, a trap ... and will ultimately rob you of the fullness of life in Christ.

Remember reading of Christ's visit with the Pharisees ... when He was approached by the "sinner" woman. She loved Christ ... because He had forgiven her sins ... which were many. Her heart was inclined toward Christ.

OTOH, the "righteous" Pharisees with whom Christ sat ... did not love Him, ... because they thought that they MERITED God's love through their own "goodness". Their hearts ... were not inclined toward Christ ... such that they did not love even the font of LOVE, Himself.

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
So yes... following the rules shows how we love Jesus (if you believe these words by our Lord Jesus Christ).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Remember reading of Christ's visit with the Pharisees ... when He was approached by the "sinner" woman. She loved Christ ... because He had forgiven her sins ... which were many. Her heart was inclined toward Christ.

She was not a seasoned believer. She was a new convert who just came to God's grace and the faith for the first time. So of course nobody can earn their salvation by their good deeds alone without FIRST being saved by God's grace. A person's past slate of sin needs to be wiped out. She needed grace and forgiveness. Jesus gave that to her, and because she was forgiven of a lot of her many sins, she loved a lot in return. I just do not see how that works with your view of Soteriology, though. You basically say you will sin again as a matter of fact. This does not show loving gratitude towards God. For it's the wrong mindset. It's serving two masters. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. Sadly, most make their allegiance to sin even when they confess Jesus as their Savior.

OTOH, the "righteous" Pharisees with whom Christ sat ... did not love Him, ... because they thought that they MERITED God's love through their own "goodness". Their hearts ... were not inclined toward Christ ... such that they did not love even the font of LOVE, Himself.

Right because they believed in Works ALONE Salvation without God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior. Nobody can be saved without first being saved by His grace. So I am not against grace, but God's grace is not a license for immorality, either (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). But you don't believe you can live godly and righteous in this present world or you think that is optional because a believer can sin and still be saved.

 

[A_Thinker]

The unforgivable sin is speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost. This sin only applies to condemning a person if they are a born again believer. Unbelievers while they can commit this sin cannot be condemned by it because they do not fully realize what they are doing (i.e. they would be sinning in ignorance).

This is easily shown to be in error according to scripture.

When Jesus spoke of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, he was referring to the actions of the Pharisees, who had begun to claim that He accomplished His miracles through the power of demons/Satan.

The Pharisees were about the clearest examples of unbelievers which existed during Jesus' ministry ... and Jesus was clearly referring to them in the episode ...

Matthew 12

22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”

25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[A_Thinker]

So no. There is not only one unforgivable sin. That would be isolating one portion of Scripture over others. Then again, this is not surprising. Your claim that there is only one unforgivable sin is one of the many mantras of popular Christianity.

I marvel how comfortable you are with contradicting Jesus. For He said ...

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[A_Thinker]

You say you are not saved by any goodness or lack of badness. So this means you can be like the others who grossly set out to live a life of sin (porn addict, drug addict, practicer of witchcraft, etc.) and still be saved.

I do not believe that people who "grossly set out to live lives of sin" ... ever become saved.

They simply haven't the heart for it ...