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Independently repeatable evidence that God interacts with our world

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Mountainmike

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Let me know when that happens.
What science explains how bread becomes living heart?

It cannot - it breaches a core tenet of the scientific model. So science will never explain it. But then science doesn’t “ explain” it simply attributes to a category of past experience.

Indeed the burden of proof is on you. You are the one who thinks a model of the universe can explain all. It can’t . It’s a limited subset of reality and even hawking with “ model dependent reality” gave up on the idea the mode can even be unique It claims multiple conflicting models are needed.

All science can do is classify the change. It has.
Living heart myocardium. Un sequencable nuclear DNA which makes it impossible to fake. ( but mitochondrial DNA found in a couple)

I suggest you study it. ( and the dozens of other theistic related phenomena) if you want to know the truth!!

science is very limited. It studies what is repeatable or can repeat, to create a model of those things we can observe with our limited sensors, it studies logical derivations from the model. It only models A limited projection of what is actually there. The scientific model is not the universe. Events like Eucharistic miracles show some of the disparity.

video games have models of the world. They are limited too, and are not the universe, nor can never they ever be other than a limited model. Just because video game models are visual , where math models for many are obscure, does not altar the fact that none of them are the universe: all just model some behaviour. But not transubstantiation apparent in Eucharistic phenomena, - science gave up that with the philosophers stone! And unlike abiogenesis, forensic evidence exists that it happened!
 
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Zoii

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Wake up and smell the coffee - ToE does not qualify as science either, yet you are perfectly willing to accept that.

I’m not talking about answered prayer as proof, and that’s not what those secular scientists mean when they say there is overwhelming evidence that a god exists.
No science does not say there is overwhelming evidence of God. You say that. And having faith doesn't make it true.

I think the problem for religions is that their doctrines are so littered with falsehoods which does you a disservice. Islam citing Mohammed flying to heaven on a chariot. And Jesus feeding thousands. Or the birth of languages was because a tower being built. Or the flood story. All these do you no favours. Your statement that there's proof of God, does your religion no favours as well, as its fosteted so many frauds and cons over dr the centuries
 
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Mountainmike

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When bread becomes a living heart, let me know.
It already has. Study it.
I’m happy to discuss the forensic reports of
Tixtla, Buenos Aires, sokolka, lanciano, legnica , etc.
You will need to read them first.
 
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NxNW

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It already has. Study it.
I’m happy to discuss the forensic reports of
Tixtla, Buenos Aires, sokolka, lanciano, legnica , etc.
You will need to read them first.

I'm sure you believe that. But trickery and incompetence do not qualify as a miracle.
 
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timewerx

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Hello,

I hope I posted on the right place. English is my second language please excuse my grammar mistakes.

I am genuinely curious if there is any independently repeatable evidence that God interacts with our world, I would prefer an article published in a well estabilished journal. I mostly looking for sciences like: physics, biology, chemistry etc and not sciences like philosophy.
I am curious and wanted to ask you guys, it looked like a good place to ask. This is just a friendly request and no offense meant.

Thank you in advance,
Kind Regards,
Curious about this

Yes, but won't see the light of day. DOD would declare it top secret.

It can be manipulated somehow like NEO in Matrix.
 
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Mountainmike

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I'm sure you believe that. But trickery and incompetence do not qualify as a miracle.
Which you judge without studying evidence.

So that opinion is faith not evidence based. The day job of the forensic labs and pathologists that studied the samples is criminology. Do you only trust science if it agrees with an apriori world view?

I’m happy to discuss evidence.
 
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Mountainmike

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Aye, there's the rub...

I’ve pointed at some précis on the web.
The key results are there.
Some Tissue sections are there.

The original reports are bound in books.

But then the first thing I ever read about black holes ( 70s - still at school!) was a book that cost me , by John Taylor. Start of an era. I still have it today!

The last stuff I read on quantum physics, I had to pay for!
Hawkings last three books were…. Paid Books.
Feynman never knowingly undercharged.

Which illustrates a problem.
Nobody I know learned maxwells equations from his papers.
Or wave functions from schrodinger. They learned from books and or courses.
In fact if any decided to read ohms papers they would realise the populist version of ohms law is wrong! It is not about an equation, that’s just a definition of resistance.
I spent a couple of years playing with maximum entropy models at a time they were in vogue,. I got the background from conference papers bound as a book as indeed I did for Kalman filters. Applied optimal estimation is still a good book!
The last Time I wanted a set of conference papers, you guessed it, it cost me!

Darwin’s book is a book. It wasn’t free.
So why the resistance to books?

The books that debunk the shroud carbon dating as the poor science it always was are…. Books.
Information costs money. There indeed is the rub!

Are you on Amazon unlimited?
 
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Mountainmike

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You won't find evidence that will convince everyone.

Then again, you also won't find evidence that will convince everyone that the earth isn't flat.
The problem is getting anyone to read it, before being convinced or not. Most scientific realists decide a- priori,that there can be no evidence that challenge that world view.
 
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partinobodycular

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Which you judge without studying evidence.
People can't be expected to spend their precious time debunking every irrational claim that comes along, just because a few impassioned supporters firmly believe that they're true. There's bigfoot, and alien abductions, and the moon landing, and flat earth, and NDE's, and on, and on.

There's a reason why these things don't have widespread support, because they don't have convincing evidence, and I don't need to research it for myself to realize that if such evidence actually did exist, then it wouldn't be a fringe position in the first place.

So if you want to convince people of your supposed evidence then call "60 Minutes", or "Fox News", or "CNN", and see if they're interested. But until then reasonable people will do what all the reasonable people before them have done, and presume that given sufficient incentive a small number of people can be persuaded to believe almost anything.
 
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Mountainmike

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Dmonsrating what I said, with another opinion given as an a priori faith statement, since you dont appear to have looked at the evidence.

the essence is there on the web. Try this…
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Tixtla2.pdf
Books written about them. Stuffed full of forensics.


The reports are Forensic labs and pathologists whose day job is criminology.
If it was fraud, how was it done?

It must be simple to debunk if as you claim it is fraud. Nobody has.
certainly not the forensic scientists!

If you want “ irrational “ ie “lacking in reason” , try those who cast verdicts without seeing evidence. Or “ defying reason” try any of the competing ideas on the quantum double slit experiment. Physics is bizarre viewed from everyday experience. Does the moon exist before you observe it? An “ irrational” question Einstein was forced to ask.

Or for a really big ask, totally try a 20000 product self adapting, self designed , self repairing chemical factory , complete with extensive software popping into existence with no apparent precursors, or stages to that final design. Orders of magnitude more complex than our most complex chemical factories. It’s the simplest cell.

Or what about the inexplicability of consciousness?

All attempts at explanations of life are incomprehensible.

But here is the critical issue - at least so called Eucharistic miracles have forensic evidence for life from inert matter. Recent life demonstrated by leucocytes in vitro. Nobody can explain that.

Abiogenesis has no evidence it happened, or how it happened whatsoever. Even if true it is pure speculation, despite the haze of attempts at plausibility arguments for small steps of what might be a possible process. Nobody has ever attempted charting the whole process even as speculation. It’s way past comprehensible.. so not “ reasonable”.

So What yardstick are you using for “ reasonable”?
Einstein got it right when he said
“ common sense is the net sum of prejudice”

People can't be expected to spend their precious time debunking every irrational claim that comes along, just because a few impassioned supporters firmly believe that they're true. There's bigfoot, and alien abductions, and the moon landing, and flat earth, and NDE's, and on, and on.

There's a reason why these things don't have widespread support, because they don't have convincing evidence, and I don't need to research it for myself to realize that if such evidence actually did exist, then it wouldn't be a fringe position in the first place.

So if you want to convince people of your supposed evidence then call "60 Minutes", or "Fox News", or "CNN", and see if they're interested. But until then reasonable people will do what all the reasonable people before them have done, and presume that given sufficient incentive a small number of people can be persuaded to believe almost anything.
 
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partinobodycular

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Dmonsrating what I said, with another opinion given as an a priori faith statement, since you dont appear to have looked at the evidence.
People can dismiss claims of miracles just as easily as they can dismiss claims of reincarnation, or Muhammad ascending into heaven on a flying horse. We don't need to examine the evidence to know that such claims are unlikely to be true, and that given humanity's propensity for self-deception the natural explanation is far more likely than the supernatural one.

Get back to us when you've examined every "miraculous" claim with which you disagree, and then we can talk. Until then it's perfectly reasonable for people to lump your miraculous claims in with everybody else's. Yours is just another example of the value of Occam's razor.
 
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Mountainmike

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Straw men again.

The day I speak of evidence of a flying horse you can contest it. I didn’t. Can I discount all so called science on the basis of one time fanciful claims of fusion in a test tube, shown as fraud?

I am suggesting you look at evidence, for ( eg) so called Eucharistic miracles then decide. The scientific way.

Many phenomena, many forensic labs, several continents.
Same conclusions.

Indeed the reason such evidence gets little promoting is those who
impose a priori prejudice on something they have yet to study, indeed even so called scientists who lose all sense of scientific discipline when confronted with evidence of such phenomena.

Your answer is prejudice, not science.

People can dismiss claims of miracles just as easily as they can dismiss claims of reincarnation, or Muhammad ascending into heaven on a flying horse. We don't need to examine the evidence to know that such claims are unlikely to be true, and that given humanity's propensity for self-deception the natural explanation is far more likely than the supernatural one.

Get back to us when you've examined every "miraculous" claim with which you disagree, and then we can talk. Until then it's perfectly reasonable for people to lump your miraculous claims in with everybody else's. Yours is just another example of the value of Occam's razor.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I’ve pointed at some précis on the web.
The key results are there.
Some Tissue sections are there.

The original reports are bound in books.

But then the first thing I ever read about black holes ( 70s - still at school!) was a book that cost me , by John Taylor. Start of an era. I still have it today!

The last stuff I read on quantum physics, I had to pay for!
Hawkings last three books were…. Paid Books.
Feynman never knowingly undercharged.

Which illustrates a problem.
Nobody I know learned maxwells equations from his papers.
Or wave functions from schrodinger. They learned from books and or courses.
In fact if any decided to read ohms papers they would realise the populist version of ohms law is wrong! It is not about an equation, that’s just a definition of resistance.
I spent a couple of years playing with maximum entropy models at a time they were in vogue,. I got the background from conference papers bound as a book as indeed I did for Kalman filters. Applied optimal estimation is still a good book!
The last Time I wanted a set of conference papers, you guessed it, it cost me!

Darwin’s book is a book. It wasn’t free.
So why the resistance to books?

The books that debunk the shroud carbon dating as the poor science it always was are…. Books.
Information costs money. There indeed is the rub!

Are you on Amazon unlimited?
The simple point is that if you wish to say that these claims have scientific support or scientific evidence, then you need to supply citations, i.e. references to papers published in a peer-reviewed journal, or at least published on a publically accessible preprint service, e.g. arXiv, so that the quality of the material and methodology can be assessed.

As I said before, if you can't show provenance beyond reasonable doubt, then it's just another exotic claim. I suspect this is why such one-off events make up the bulk of supernatural claims - no supernatural claims of repeatable, verifiable events have withstood scrutiny.

My resistance isn't to books per-se - I've got too many books to read as it is - it's for spending time & money on books that make unverifiable, unfalsifiable, supernatural claims, particularly claims specific to the beliefs of one particular religious sect. Life's too short.
 
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Zoii

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Dmonsrating what I said, with another opinion given as an a priori faith statement, since you dont appear to have looked at the evidence.

the essence is there on the web. Try this…
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Tixtla2.pdf
Books written about them. Stuffed full of forensics.


The reports are Forensic labs and pathologists whose day job is criminology.
If it was fraud, how was it done?

It must be simple to debunk if as you claim it is fraud. Nobody has.
certainly not the forensic scientists!

If you want “ irrational “ ie “lacking in reason” , try those who cast verdicts without seeing evidence. Or “ defying reason” try any of the competing ideas on the quantum double slit experiment. Physics is bizarre viewed from everyday experience. Does the moon exist before you observe it? An “ irrational” question Einstein was forced to ask.

Or for a really big ask, totally try a 20000 product self adapting, self designed , self repairing chemical factory , complete with extensive software popping into existence with no apparent precursors, or stages to that final design. Orders of magnitude more complex than our most complex chemical factories. It’s the simplest cell.

Or what about the inexplicability of consciousness?

All attempts at explanations of life are incomprehensible.

But here is the critical issue - at least so called Eucharistic miracles have forensic evidence for life from inert matter. Recent life demonstrated by leucocytes in vitro. Nobody can explain that.

Abiogenesis has no evidence it happened, or how it happened whatsoever. Even if true it is pure speculation, despite the haze of attempts at plausibility arguments for small steps of what might be a possible process. Nobody has ever attempted charting the whole process even as speculation. It’s way past comprehensible.. so not “ reasonable”.

So What yardstick are you using for “ reasonable”?
Einstein got it right when he said
“ common sense is the net sum of prejudice”
Abiogenesis isn't proof of God. It is however evidence to support the theory of evolution.
 
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Mountainmike

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Abiogenesis isn't proof of God. It is however evidence to support the theory of evolution.

A claim of abiogenesis isn’t evidence or proof, or even a valid hypothesis in proper scientific definition. Abiogenesis is pure conjecture, a massive wall with only ideas for a couple of prospective bricks. Most of the wall missing completely.


And I was using the lack of evidence for that as a benchmark, to say the so called “Eucharistic miracle “ evidence for life not only exists but is strong. It actually exists unlike any evidence for end to end abiogenesis, either happening or how.
 
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Mountainmike

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Not so.
Academia uses peer reviewed journals to add to the model of science. It is only one route.

But Endless criminals are convicted even on death row by forensic reports never published in such journals . The labs have a far higher standard of process than wacky professors generally do.

The test results are there to see and inexplicable in the opinion of leading pathologists. You won’t even look.
The précis is out there, the detail available.
Are you worried about what you might find?

I have pointed out that the peer review system demonstrably hinders ideas that counter establishment narrative. The paper that destroyed the useless unscientific process of the shroud carbon dating didn’t get accepted by peer review for the main journal RC dating. Why? Because the peers were the very labs whose credibility was wrecked by the paper. They were determined to stop it.

Nature magazine broke the rules to accept the work in the first place which was hopelessly shoddy because it “liked “ the answer it gave.

Ultimately truth will out, and such as Rogers final book , Adlers presentations, meachams and Marino’s books , later Fanti, bury the dating once and for all.
The shroud really is that of a crucified man and ancient. The daters tested a mediaeval addition ignoring all the protocols.
The truth came out in the end, but not in nature magazine or peer reviewed journals. It came out in books.

Rogers stated he had a serious problem with many normally credible scientists, determined to declare the shroud fake, with no interest in evidence that totally disproves them. They became pseudoscientists dealing with the shroud.

But here’s what happens when establishment science does get involved.
Take Sokolka.

Tested by two pathology professors with massive resumes, impeccable credentials at byalystok university who did all the tests to prove human blood AB, human cardiac tissue. Leucocytes etc. No nuclear dna profile. impossible to explain or fake. They produced a report. The slides are out there on the web.

The two were threatened, and silenced, put on trumped up disciplinary, a dean of the university who had never even seen the samples declared the ludicrous idea it was “red bread mould” . He’d never even looked! The university shut it down. It didn’t like scientific conclusion.

Universities who do discover the origin of such samples before testing refuse to test it why?
It would be easy to prove as fraud were it true.
Academia doesn’t want the truth. It is scared of what it might find.

like the shroud , the truth will come out in books so the likes of Dawkins don’t get to hide it. The forensics say it all without him.

lit shouldn’t surprise you.
It is so bad now you can lose your job as an academic for saying only women have periods or a vagina! It says it all.

Like China or Russia , Conclusions have to be “ acceptable “ to be given air time.

academia **sucks**

The simple point is that if you wish to say that these claims have scientific support or scientific evidence, then you need to supply citations, i.e. references to papers published in a peer-reviewed journal, or at least published on a publically accessible preprint service, e.g. arXiv, so that the quality of the material and methodology can be assessed.

As I said before, if you can't show provenance beyond reasonable doubt, then it's just another exotic claim. I suspect this is why such one-off events make up the bulk of supernatural claims - no supernatural claims of repeatable, verifiable events have withstood scrutiny.

My resistance isn't to books per-se - I've got too many books to read as it is - it's for spending time & money on books that make unverifiable, unfalsifiable, supernatural claims, particularly claims specific to the beliefs of one particular religious sect. Life's too short.
 
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partinobodycular

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Your answer is prejudice, not science.
You're right, it's a prejudice, but at least in my case it's a prejudice born out of previous examinations of the available evidence. And, I don't need to examine every case in detail in order to determine its credibility, because the credibility of the person making the claim is the first thing to be considered.

Unfortunately in your case, past experience tells me that over-enthusiastic claims of the miraculous tend to be just that, and are therefore are no longer worthy of the time and effort needed to debunk them.

This is a case wherein the fervency of the messenger does more harm than good. In other words, you are your own worst enemy.
 
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