Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[klutedavid]

Paul said "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND IS TO BE USED FOR DOCTRINE" 2 Tim 3:16

Paul "could" have said -- "hey you guys... I am the APOSTLE Paul so just believe whatever I make up and toss your Bibles out the window".... but instead we have 2 Tim 3:16.

In fact far worse for you suggestion above - we have Eph 6:1-2 which is the exact opposite.

Where instead of

"Children, obey your parents - because I The Apostle To The Gentiles say so and I am more important than scripture"

We have this --

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), Eph 6:1-2

Paul argues that scripture is making his point just as Christ claimed in Mark 7:6-13. Paul argues for the authority in scripture in Eph 6 above his own.

Bob, Christians are not under the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Freth]

Christians are not under the law (ten commandments).

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Paul goes on to preach obedience unto righteousness.

Romans 6:15-18 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

We will never agree on this point. Have a good evening and God bless!

 

[klutedavid]

Seems your translation is a little misleading. The Greek word used in Colossians 2:16 for "sabbath" is σαββάτων; "sabbaton" [N-GNP] which is a noun that is genitive neuter plural [N-GNP] meaning plural application to sabbaths which is the most accurate translation to the Greek. This is why most translation translate Colossians 2:16 as "sabbaths or sabbath [days]. The scripture context of course is to the meat and drink offerings, and the new moons and the sabbaths in the annual Feast days when were all "shadows of things" to come [v17] and judging others in this regard.

According to the scriptures in the old covenant there were many different types of sabbaths (days of rest and holy convocation where no work was to be done) that had a different purpose to God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments or creation Sabbath. These included; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36 (sabbaths plural to sabbaton in Colossians 2:16-17; also called high sabbaths if they fall on the same day as a weekly sabbath *John 19:31).

These ceremonial sabbaths or "shadow sabbaths" were shadows of things to come because they linked directly to the annual Feast days not a weekly cycle, and were tied directly to the old covenant laws of remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the Sanctuary and laws for remission of sins through animal sacrifice and atonement and annual Feast days). These of course were all "shadow laws" pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Savior of the world as God's true sacrifice for the sins of the world and Jesus as our true great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf once and for all based on better promises under the new covenant *see John 1:29; John 1:36; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. As posted earlier these ceremonial sabbaths are different and served a different purpose to God's 4th commandment which is one of God's eternal laws that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. God never made a covenant with gentiles.

Take Care.

Sabbath or Sabbaths, new moon or new moons, insignificant.

There is no mention of annual feast days in Colossians 2:16, just stick to the text.

The text says Sabbath and that is all the text says.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Are you under grace and led by the Spirit or are you under the law?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Bible writers



Am glad we can agree on at least one group of historic sources.

I've seen what you do to Bible and with "history".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[chad kincham]

Gen 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why is your face gloomy? 7 If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" -- not just "SOME have sinned - just those born after Sinai"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world

Gen 13:
10 Lot raised his eyes and saw all the vicinity of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere—this was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah—like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt going toward Zoar. 11 So Lot chose for himself all the vicinity of the Jordan, and Lot journeyed eastward. So they separated from each other. 12 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled in the cities of the vicinity of the Jordan, and moved his tents as far as Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked sinners against the Lord.

Gen 18:
20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me indicates; and if not, I will know.”

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The entire world wiped out at the flood.
================
A lot of people getting punished for their sin -- before Sinai

Except you skipped the part where Paul, whom you partially quoted, wrote that from Adam to Moses, there was no law of the type given to Moses, so sin was present in the world, but not IMPUTED to men where there is no law:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

All have sinned is true, but before there was a law that listed what sin IS and commanded men not to sin, God didn’t punish anyone for their sins.

And scripture is very clear that the law wasn’t given until 430 years after Abraham:

Gal 3:17 What I mean is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law, which was given four hundred and thirty years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God's promise.

Gal 3:18 For if God's gift depends on the Law, then it no longer depends on his promise. However, it was because of his promise that God gave that gift to Abraham.

Gal 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is,

BTW that God destroyed Sodom for depravity doesn’t mean the souls of the dead went to hell - because sin isn’t imputed when there is no law - and the law of Moses was not yet given.

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

If there was always a law that condemned sinners, it would be irrelevant and completely unnecessary to remark that before the law sin existed but was not IMPUTED, and to state that where there’s no law, there’s no transgression of the law.

See post #446

 

[chad kincham]

So then Cain punished, the entire world punished at the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah punished for their great sin (exceedingly grave sin) - all prove that Law DID exist before Sinai since if it did not exist - none of them would be sinners, none could be punished for sin that they were not guilty of.

Cain wasn’t put to death for murder, which is the penalty given by the law - because that law didn’t exist, and wouldn’t, until given to Moses 430 years after Abraham.

Cain was instead exiled. Being exiled is not the penalty for murder under the law - being stoned to death is the penalty of the law.

You are mixing up God physically killing sinners, with God imputing their sins to them on judgment day and sending them to hell.

Paul wrote that physical death existed because of sin, for the time period between Adam and Moses, but was not counted against them (as in their souls being damned on judgment day), but until the law was given, their souls weren’t damned, because where there’s no law, there’s no transgression.

See post #445

 

[Icyspark]

If you keep the ten commandments then you are under the law. If you are under the law then you are not under grace.

Hi klutedavid,

Are you under the law? In Galatians 5 Paul indicates that you are not under the law "IF you are led by the Spirit." He then goes on to provide a list of what he identifies as "acts of the flesh":

1. sexual immorality
2. impurity
3. debauchery
4. idolatry
5. witchcraft
6. hatred
7. discord
8. jealousy
9. fits of rage
10. selfish ambition
11. dissensions
12. factions
13. envy
14. drunkenness
15. orgies, and the like.

After providing the above list of "acts of the flesh" he says, "I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Next Paul goes on to identify those who are "led by the Spirit" by providing a list of "the fruit of the Spirit":

1. love
2. joy
3. peace
4. forbearance
5. kindness
6. goodness,
7. faithfulness
8. gentleness
9. self-control

For a Christian to claim they are not under the law while at the same time brazenly embracing the "acts of the flesh" and/or not revealing the fruits of the Spirit is something not endorsed by Paul. Paul does not allow the idea of sinning that grace may abound. Paul does endorse Christians doing a self-exam to see if they are in the faith and he indicates that it is possible to fail this exam (2 Corinthians 13:5).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Albion]

It's a huge mistake to think that having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions against the will of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Cain wasn’t put to death for murder

But the entire world was - at the flood.
The point with Cain is that God said he needed to battle against sin. Then he was punished with banishment.

Without the law there is no such thing as sin for "sin is transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4

God said that the penalty for eating of the tree of knowledge of evil was death - yet they did not die that very day. It does not mean the law did not exist or that rebellion was not sin for them or that it would have no consequence.

, which is the penalty given by the law - because that law didn’t exist, and wouldn’t, until given to Moses 430 years after Abraham.

In Genesis 9 God sets the penalty for murder as death.

Gen 9:
5 I certainly will require your lifeblood; from every animal I will require it. And from every person, from every man as his brother I will require the life of a person.
6 Whoever sheds human blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made mankind.

Cain was instead exiled. Being exiled is not the penalty for murder

It was the penalty God set for Cain's sin.

You are mixing up God physically killing sinners, with God imputing their sins to them on judgment day and sending them to hell.

God said that "the soul that sins must die" Ezek 18:4 and that all the world - every single person has sinned as God sees it.. Rom 6:23 just as God accused Cain of failing to battle against sin in his day.

Rom 3:19-20 says all are informed as to their sin and penalty and guilt - with every mouth closed.

Rom 1 says even godless pagans with no access to scripture at all are convicted by God's Law.

There was never a time when God did not recognize "taking His name in vain" - as sin.

Rom 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, 27 and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, 29 people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[BobRyan]

It's a huge mistake to think that having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions against the will of God.

Do you have a quote of someone claiming that "having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions"??

 

[klutedavid]

Do you have a quote of someone claiming that "having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions"??

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The key you are missing is "His seed"

This is His seed

Revelations 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So when you are with God and part of His seed, you also obey the commandments of God. Makes perfect sense to me. How can you claim to be with God but break His holy laws?

 

[klutedavid]

Hi klutedavid,

Are you under the law? In Galatians 5 Paul indicates that you are not under the law "IF you are led by the Spirit." He then goes on to provide a list of what he identifies as "acts of the flesh":

1. sexual immorality
2. impurity
3. debauchery
4. idolatry
5. witchcraft
6. hatred
7. discord
8. jealousy
9. fits of rage
10. selfish ambition
11. dissensions
12. factions
13. envy
14. drunkenness
15. orgies, and the like.

After providing the above list of "acts of the flesh" he says, "I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Next Paul goes on to identify those who are "led by the Spirit" by providing a list of "the fruit of the Spirit":

1. love
2. joy
3. peace
4. forbearance
5. kindness
6. goodness,
7. faithfulness
8. gentleness
9. self-control

For a Christian to claim they are not under the law while at the same time brazenly embracing the "acts of the flesh" and/or not revealing the fruits of the Spirit is something not endorsed by Paul. Paul does not allow the idea of sinning that grace may abound. Paul does endorse Christians doing a self-exam to see if they are in the faith and he indicates that it is possible to fail this exam (2 Corinthians 13:5).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

A very confusing post.

You proclaim part of the law and not the whole law. Yet you say, "to claim they are not under the law". The deeds of the flesh encompass way more than the ten commandments cover.

For example, these deeds; selfish ambition, drunkenness, and factions, are not even mentioned in the ten commandments. How can you on the one hand talk about these deeds, which are many. Then on the other hand mention the ten commandments?

 

[klutedavid]

The key you are missing is "His seed"

This is His seed

Revelations 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So when you are with God and part of His seed, you also obey the commandments of God. Makes perfect sense to me. How can you claim to be with God but break His holy laws?

Read it again. The text (Revelation 12:17) says "her seed" not "his seed".

The last book of the Bible is called Revelation not Revelations.

How can someone believe in Jesus and break the law?

Everyone sins and sin is not only the transgression of the law, but also anything that is not of faith. Sin is also the good that you know you should do but don't do. Sin is causing your brother to stumble. Sin is uttering falsely prophecy, adding to or detracting from the scripture.

I could go on and on about sin. If you believe that you are obedient to the law, then I am very skeptical of your claim. The law only grants the knowledge of sin and nothing else.

 

[klutedavid]

Cain wasn’t put to death for murder, which is the penalty given by the law - because that law didn’t exist, and wouldn’t, until given to Moses 430 years after Abraham.

Cain was instead exiled. Being exiled is not the penalty for murder under the law - being stoned to death is the penalty of the law.

You are mixing up God physically killing sinners, with God imputing their sins to them on judgment day and sending them to hell.

Paul wrote that physical death existed because of sin, for the time period between Adam and Moses, but was not counted against them (as in their souls being damned on judgment day), but until the law was given, their souls weren’t damned, because where there’s no law, there’s no transgression.

See post #445

Perhaps you should have used Abraham as an example. Abraham committed adultery with Hagar.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Read it again. The text (Revelation 12:17) says "her seed" not "his seed".

Do you know what the women represents in scripture?

Everyone sins and sin is not only the transgression of the law, but also anything that is not of faith. Sin is also the good that you know you should do but don't do. Sin is causing your brother to stumble. Sin is uttering falsely prophecy, adding to or detracting from the scripture.

So if you know you are supposed to keep the commandments and not doing so is sin, why do you argue against keeping God's law?

 

[klutedavid]

Do you know what the women represents in scripture?

The church and some say Mary.

So if you know you are supposed to keep the commandments and not doing so is sin, why do you argue against keeping God's law?

Because you are using the wrong set of commandments.

John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

The law grants the knowledge of sin and that's all the law grants, the law does not invoke holiness.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The church and some say Mary.Because you are using the wrong set of commandments.

John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

The law grants the knowledge of sin and that's all the law grants, the law does not invoke holiness.

The women represent God's church and the seed is those who abide in God and keep the commandments of God. Revelations 12:17, Revelations 14:12, Revelations 22:14

How do you show love to God, by breaking the commandments? You abide in Him when you keep the commandments and you really think this excludes the commandments that God personally wrote with His own finger and placed in the most holy in God's temple and we are free to break each of these now? This is certainly not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught us to keep the commandments of His Father John 15:10 just like He did as our example.

 

[klutedavid]

The women represent God's church and the seed is those who abide in God and keep the commandments of God.

I just said that.

How do you show love to God, by breaking the commandments? You abide in Him when you keep the commandments and you really think this excludes the commandments that God personally wrote with His own finger and placed in the most holy in God's temple and we are free to break each of these now? This is certainly not what Jesus taught. Jesus taught us to keep the commandments of His Father John 15:10 just like He did as our example.

New covenant and new commandments.

John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

You can not tell a lie but that is not an act of love towards the brethren, by any means.

You are given this fruit of the Holy Spirit.

1. love
2. joy
3. peace
4. forbearance
5. kindness
6. goodness,
7. faithfulness
8. gentleness
9. self-control

 

[Icyspark]

A very confusing post.

You proclaim part of the law and not the whole law. Yet you say, "to claim they are not under the law". The deeds of the flesh encompass way more than the ten commandments cover.

For example, these deeds; selfish ambition, drunkenness, and factions, are not even mentioned in the ten commandments. How can you on the one hand talk about these deeds, which are many. Then on the other hand mention the ten commandments?

Hi klutedavid,

Perhaps if you were to go to Galatians 5 and read everything in context you'd be less confused by me and more confused by Paul? After all, he's the one who contextualized being "under the law" with embracing "the acts of the flesh."

Galatians 5:16-26
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.​

Isaiah, in speaking of the coming Messiah wrote that He would "magnify the law, and make it honourable." When one magnifies something does it diminish in size? Or rather, doesn't it enlarge? Yes, it gets bigger. I believe the Ten Commandments are the third level down in a pyramid of God's revelation to humans about His directions for our lives.

Love
God * Neighbor
Ten Commandments
Laws * Decrees * Ordinances​

Love is not left in a vacuum for us to express in whatever manner we arbitrarily choose. God has revealed His directions for how we are to live and has tied our love to Him in how we choose to obey Him or not. So "IF you are being led by the Spirit" you will not be engaging in the "acts of the flesh." Paul lists 15 specific acts which he indicates are in opposition to a Christian who is being "led by the Spirit." This list is not exhaustive, but it does include one of the Ten (i.e. idolatry).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark