Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

[guevaraj]

Do you mean if a law is repeated in the New covenant as something that we are told to do, or just if the law is mentioned?

Brother, I would stay on the safe side and say if mentioned is the law. Unless you can show that achieved is the purpose of the law, it stays.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. (Matthew 5:18 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, I would stay on the safe side and say if mentioned is the law. Unless you can show that achieved is the purpose of the law, it stays.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. (Matthew 5:18 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Okay, and then the laws that aren't mentioned in the New covenant. How do you decide if they have achieved their purpose?

 

[IWalkAlone]

Knowledge edifies nobody.


Charity does.

What about knowledge of charity?
Jesus edified us through laying His life down, we are to believe in being dead with Him in baptism, and risen in righteousness.


Gods love must be fulfilled in us, and it is when we also lay our lives down, and if we keep them, than what is fulfilled is a law of sin and death which we then were not freed from.

what about knowledge of charity?

 

[guevaraj]

Okay, and then the laws that aren't mentioned in the New covenant. How do you decide if they have achieved their purpose?

Brother, that's a tough job. How do you show that not wearing blends pointed to "clothing yourself" in the absolute purity of the "right living" of Jesus?

“You must obey all my decrees. “Do not mate two different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two different kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of thread. (Leviticus 19:19 NLT)​

Not wearing "clothing woven from two different kinds of thread" could be achieved by "clothing ourselves" in the absolute purity of the "right living" of Jesus. How can we be sure that this is the case, unless God tells us that this is the case? This kind of link is too speculative for me to know it comes from the word of God and not from me. My understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4 is not speculative and therefore true. All the other traditions of Hebrews 3 and 4 contradict what God says the word "rest" means in the passage to allow you to speculate on its meaning.

This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is almost gone; the day of salvation will soon be here. So remove your dark deeds like dirty clothes, and put on the shining armor of right living. Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don’t participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy. Instead, clothe yourself with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. And don’t let yourself think about ways to indulge your evil desires. (Romans 13:11-14 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, that's a tough job. How do you show that not wearing blends pointed to "clothing yourself" in the absolute purity of the "right living" of Jesus?

“You must obey all my decrees. “Do not mate two different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two different kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of thread. (Leviticus 19:19 NLT)​

Not wearing "clothing woven from two different kinds of thread" could be achieved by "clothing ourselves" in the absolute purity of the "right living" of Jesus. How can we be sure that this is the case, unless God tells us that this is the case? This kind of link is too speculative for me to know it comes from the word of God and not from me. My understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4 is not speculative and therefore true. All the other traditions of Hebrews 3 and 4 contradict what God says the word "rest" means in the passage to allow you to speculate on its meaning.

This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is almost gone; the day of salvation will soon be here. So remove your dark deeds like dirty clothes, and put on the shining armor of right living. Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don’t participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy. Instead, clothe yourself with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. And don’t let yourself think about ways to indulge your evil desires. (Romans 13:11-14 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Are you saying that since you can't say for sure whether the purpose of the clothing blend law has been achieved, that you aren't going to wear blended fabrics?

Are you wearing blended fabrics now and are planning to stop in the future? If so, socks and underwear will be the hardest things, I think. Maybe jackets.

 

[guevaraj]

Are you saying that since you can't say for sure whether the purpose of the clothing blend law has been achieved, that you aren't going to wear blended fabrics? Are you wearing blended fabrics now and are planning to stop in the future? If so, socks and underwear will be the hardest things, I think. Maybe jackets.

Brother, with the slow progress we are making on the Sabbath in preparation for the return of Jesus, which repeated is in the new covenant, it is difficult to see us grow this much before the coming of Jesus as "Gentiles who are turning to God". The Holy Spirit grows you slowly to obey the law as James allowed the Holy Spirit to grow "Gentiles who are turning to God" slowly as they listen to the law of Moses every Sabbath.

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” (Acts 15:19-21 NIV)​

Are you ready in your growth with the Holy Spirit to accept God's call to keep the Sabbath in Hebrews 3 and 4. Expressed by Jesus below is this truth of not growing us faster than we can "bear".

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. (John 16:12-14 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, with the slow progress we are making on the Sabbath in preparation for the return of Jesus, which repeated is in the new covenant, it is difficult to see us grow this much before the coming of Jesus as "Gentiles who are turning to God". The Holy Spirit grows you slowly to obey the law as James allowed the Holy Spirit to grow "Gentiles who are turning to God" slowly as they listen to the law of Moses every Sabbath.

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” (Acts 15:19-21 NIV)​

Are you ready in your growth with the Holy Spirit to accept God's call to keep the Sabbath in Hebrews 3 and 4. Expressed by Jesus below is this truth of not growing us faster than we can "bear".

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. (John 16:12-14 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I believe I have already accepted God's call to keep the Sabbath, though I probably don't keep it according to your interpretation of scripture.

Do the spiritually mature people in your group wear single fabric clothes?

I once had a friend who was part of a group that promoted keeping the dietary laws. She took me to a little store that was part of her church where they sold stuff like hot dogs made out of vegetable protein. But there weren't any special clothes there that I remember.

I don't know of any Christians who wear single fabric clothes. Maybe there are a few Messianic Judaism brothers in Christ?

 

[guevaraj]

I believe I have already accepted God's call to keep the Sabbath, though I probably don't keep it according to your interpretation of scripture.

Brother, I do not seek my interpretation, but the truth in the word of God. The Sabbath is especially important, as the Lord repeated it in the new covenant.

I don't know of any Christians who wear single fabric clothes. Maybe there are a few Messianic Judaism brothers in Christ?

They show that it is possible to obey these laws even in our modern times! United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, I do not seek my interpretation, but the truth in the word of God. The Sabbath is especially important, as the Lord repeated it in the new covenant.

They show that it is possible to obey these laws even in our modern times! United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

We are both seeking the truth of God's word. But we currently each have different interpretations. That's why I think it's good to discuss these things!

I actually don't know of any Messianic Judaism people who wear single fabric clothes, I was just speculating. The ones I have asked were evasive.

 

[guevaraj]

We are both seeking the truth of God's word. But we currently each have different interpretations. That's why I think it's good to discuss these things! I actually don't know of any Messianic Judaism people who wear single fabric clothes, I was just speculating. The ones I have asked were evasive.

Brother, I am with James and the disciples when I say "that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God." Wanting them to obey laws the Lord has not repeated in the new covenant at this time. What He has highlighted through His latest prophet is the Sabbath. The angel told our prophet that we will understand more in the future. He even told us what we will learn after learning "what even is", sunset. We will learn "when it is", that it takes place in the middle of the first day and not at the beginning. I know God helped our church understand the longest time to make this correction by holding an incorrect hour for more than 8 years before doing the Bible study to learn more. God prepared our church to understand His Sabbath. Note that the angel speaks positively that we will "understand, but not yet, not yet". It is difficult to correct a tradition, especially one that has been around for so long! We understood "what even is" but we have not understood "when it is": even falls in the middle of the first day and not as supposed was at the beginning because the Sabbath in Israel is not as supposed a day of the week.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, I am with James and the disciples when I say "that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God." Wanting them to obey laws the Lord has not repeated in the new covenant at this time.

Are you saying that gentiles like us should only try to keep the laws that are repeated in the new covenant?

 

[guevaraj]

Are you saying that gentiles like us should only try to keep the laws that are repeated in the new covenant?

Brother, no, that's not what I'm saying! I am saying that there are steps to our growth. We must not make it any more difficult than the Sabbath at this stage of our growth. The prominent message for us under the new covenant at this time is to correct the Sabbath tradition of Judaism explained in Hebrews 3 and 4. The reason I know this is the next step to take is because of the message given to our prophetess. Jesus expressed that there are limits to what we can bear. I think the Sabbath is quite difficult, for others to bear more corrections than the Sabbath at this stage of our growth.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” (Hebrews 4:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, no, that's not what I'm saying! I am saying that there are steps to our growth. We must not make it any more difficult than the Sabbath at this stage of our growth. The prominent message for us under the new covenant at this time is to correct the Sabbath tradition of Judaism explained in Hebrews 3 and 4. The reason I know this is the next step to take is because of the message given to our prophetess. Jesus expressed that there are limits to what we can bear. I think the Sabbath is quite difficult, for others to bear more corrections than the Sabbath at this stage of our growth.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” (Hebrews 4:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Are you saying that the only law we should be concerned with right now is the Sabbath commandment?

Who is the "we" that you are talking about? Gentile Christians today? Or just you and me? Or just me?

 

[guevaraj]

Are you saying that the only law we should be concerned with right now is the Sabbath commandment? Who is the "we" that you are talking about? Gentile Christians today? Or just you and me? Or just me?

Brother, although you can choose not to wear blends in your own personal growth, you must not make things difficult for other people who are not in your growth stage when the Holy Spirit is teaching the Sabbath at this time. That is letting the Holy Spirit direct the growth of the Gentiles who are turning to God. For us who are ahead, not getting in the way of the Holy Spirit is what the Jews recognized, acknowledging that they had done nothing better than what God was doing to save as many people as possible. They did not say not to obey the law of Moses, but rather they allowed the Holy Spirit to slowly grow the Gentiles who are turning to God to obey more and more as they listen to the law of Moses read every Sabbath.

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” (Acts 15:19-21 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, although you can choose not to wear blends in your own personal growth, you must not make things difficult for other people who are not in your growth stage when the Holy Spirit is teaching the Sabbath at this time. That is letting the Holy Spirit direct the growth of the Gentiles who are turning to God. For us who are ahead, not getting in the way of the Holy Spirit is what the Jews recognized, acknowledging that they had done nothing better than what God was doing to save as many people as possible. They did not say not to obey the law of Moses, but rather they allowed the Holy Spirit to slowly grow the Gentiles who are turning to God to obey more and more as they listen to the law of Moses read every Sabbath.

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” (Acts 15:19-21 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

So the blended fabrics law is a law that has not disappeared, it still remains today. But the Holy Spirit may not bring it to some people's attention so that they can focus on the Sabbath.

Is that what you're saying?

 

[guevaraj]

So the blended fabrics law is a law that has not disappeared, it still remains today. But the Holy Spirit may not bring it to some people's attention so that they can focus on the Sabbath. Is that what you're saying?

Brother, we must not draw attention to these other decrees at this time because the Holy Spirit has challenged us with the Sabbath and we have the example of the disciples not to over-bear those who are turning to God, they will learn of these other decrees while listening to the law of Moses read every Sabbath.

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. (John 16:12-14 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, we must not draw attention to these other decrees at this time because the Holy Spirit has challenged us with the Sabbath and we have the example of the disciples not to over-bear those who are turning to God, they will learn of these other decrees while listening to the law of Moses read every Sabbath.

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. (John 16:12-14 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Are you uncomfortable talking about the entire law now? We can stop if you wish.

Myself, I like to talk about the entire law.
Deuteronomy 6
These words, which I command you today, shall be on your heart; 7 and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the door posts of your house and on your gates.

Psalms 19
The LORD's Law is perfect, restoring the soul. The LORD's testimony is sure, making wise the simple.
8The LORD's precepts are right, rejoicing the heart. The LORD's commandment is pure, enlightening the eyes.

I don't think Acts 15 is saying not to do that.

 

[guevaraj]

Are you uncomfortable talking about the entire law now? We can stop if you wish. Myself, I like to talk about the entire law.

Brother, I am willing to talk about the Sabbath. Are you not interested in the Sabbath?

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” (Hebrews 4:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, I am willing to talk about the Sabbath. Are you not interested in the Sabbath?

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” (Hebrews 4:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Yes, I am interested in talking about the Sabbath as part of the entire law.

All scripture... is profitable!

I think when Hebrews talks about the Sabbath in that passage it's referring to heaven or New Life in Christ, a kind of heavenly Canaan.

For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. NLT
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 4 - New Living Translation

 

[guevaraj]

Yes, I am interested in talking about the Sabbath as part of the entire law. All scripture... is profitable! I think when Hebrews talks about the Sabbath in that passage it's referring to heaven or New Life in Christ, a kind of heavenly Canaan. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. NLT Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 4 - New Living Translation

Brother, there are two announcements in the message of Hebrews 3 and 4 about God's "rest" on the seventh day of creation. First, why didn't they enter His "rest" during the 40 years that they kept the seventh day of the week with Manna from morning to morning near the Promised Land? Second, why didn't Joshua give them God's "rest" even though they entered God's "rest" in the Promised Land from evening to evening? What didn't those under Joshua understand about the Sabbath lesson with Manna from morning to morning that God expects us to understand? What is different about the Sabbath with Manna for 40 years from morning to morning and the Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening? My church assumes the sentence in Genesis 1:5 starts the first day on an evening, but it only gives the end of the first day as a "night" from evening to morning. The first day ends in a morning and not in an evening like the Sabbath in the Promised Land. The first day started before this sentence, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the "morning".

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was EVENING, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

From evening to morning is what God called "night", you are missing a morning to evening that God called "day".

Notice that God did not say in the next passage the "night" half from evening to morning as He said on the first day.

It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 NKJV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge