The KJVO myth...

[Bob_1000]

Pure guesswork. Pure coincidence. There's not the slightest peep from one translator that theymade word counts equal out to Biblical numbers.

Agreed, which means some one moved them to do it. I don't see how you can deny this. The mathematical probability of that happening accidentally ONE TIME is absurb and it happened hundreds of times in the KJV.

I know there are no messages in word count numbers, so I'm asking for **PROOF** of special inspiration for the KJV that no other version has. At least you admit that "Bible codes" are as real as unicorns.

The biblical number for love of any kind whether pure or harlot love is 13. What's the probability that the KJV translators accidentally wrote these 13 words in all caps "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" to describe the mother of harlots?

Do you think this was an accident?

 

[Der Alte]

Any basic Hebrew grammar will lay out the basics of what I have said regarding the concrete nature of Hebrew that cause the issue. And it's not that the translators of the JPS didn't know it, it's that they recognize that Hebrew is primarily a contextual language and through context can convey things that the word construction alone isn't capable of. Translators often simplify these kinds of issues when they're building lexicons and other reference tools because the target is a definition in the new language not the original language and the caveats that are present in the original language are left to more comprehensive discussions.

I did a quick look through "Hebrew language" and "Grammar, Hebrew" in the 1901-1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. I didn't find much support for your theory.
I have difficulty believing that God provided us a Bible that is so difficult to translate.

 

[Fervent]

I did a quick look through "Hebrew language" and "Grammar, Hebrew" in the 1901-1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. I didn't find much support for your theory.
I have difficulty believing that God provided us a Bible that is so difficult to translate.

Encyclopedias are great for cursory investigation, but they give little regarding any sort of depth. When I said a Hebrew grammar, I meant a book written for the purposes of learning the language. Any one worth their salt will discuss that Hebrew is a language that is built on concrete, sensory things with words like "nose" being used for anger and other abstract concepts being expressed similarly. And this doesn't have to do with being "so difficult to translate" but realities when translating across languages period. There is no swapping one word for another as if every language is simply a composite of a fixed vocabulary and words that are close approximates in the target language usually have some dimensions or connotations not truly fit to the original language. Languages function differently, with English being primarily an abstract, grammatical language and Hebrew being primarily a concrete, contextual language.

 

[Bob_1000]

Pure guesswork. Pure coincidence. There's not the slightest peep from one translator that theymade word counts equal out to Biblical numbers.


I know there are no messages in word count numbers, so I'm asking for **PROOF** of special inspiration for the KJV that no other version has. At least you admit that "Bible codes" are as real as unicorns.

Here's a few more.
Why does the KJV have the serpent speaking exactly 46 words to Eve in garden?
Why is the phrase "The Devil" found exactly 46 times in the KJV?
Why did it take 46 years to build the physical temple that foreshadowed the physical body of Jesus?
All of those are references to the 46 chromosomes that house human DNA. Did the KJV translators secretly know about DNA and secretly encode it into the bible or is it coincidence or is it divine inspiration?

The number 22 is the biblical number for mystery or the revelation of mysteries. That's why there are 22 chapters in the book of REVELATION. The word "mystery" is found exactly 22 times in the KJV... Coincidence or divine inspiration?

How many coincidences does there have to be before you will admit divine inspiration?

 

[trophy33]

Here's a few more.
Why does the KJV have the serpent speaking exactly 46 words to Eve in garden?
Why is the phrase "The Devil" found exactly 46 times in the KJV?
Why did it take 46 years to build the physical temple that foreshadowed the physical body of Jesus?
All of those are references to the 46 chromosomes that house human DNA. Did the KJV translators secretly know about DNA and secretly encode it into the bible or is it coincidence or is it divine inspiration?

The number 22 is the biblical number for mystery or the revelation of mysteries. That's why there are 22 chapters in the book of REVELATION. The word "mystery" is found exactly 22 times in the KJV... Coincidence or divine inspiration?

How many coincidences does there have to be before you will admit divine inspiration?

What do devil, DNA and temple have to do with each other? How do you choose what numbers are relevant to something else?

For example, there are 46 European countries. Or there are 46 millions of Americans living in poverty... etc.

I am pretty sure similar play with numbers can be done with any book. For example, there are 33 verses with the word "devil" in NIV.
There are 33 Vertebrae in the Spine. Coincidence? Dont think so!

There are 63 verses with the word "prophecy" in NIV. And there are 63 national parks in the USA!

 

[Bob_1000]

What do devil, DNA and temple have to do with each other? How do you choose what numbers are relevant to something else?

For example, there are 46 European countries. Or there are 46 millions of Americans living in poverty... etc.

I am pretty sure similar play with numbers can be done with any book. For example, there are 33 verses with the word "devil" in NIV.
There are 33 Vertebrae in the Spine. Coincidence? Dont think so!

DNA is the serpent, aka the devil personified as fallen angelic being.

I’m about to start an 8 hour drive so I won’t be able to respond for quite a while.

 

[trophy33]

DNA is the serpent, aka the devil personified as fallen angelic being.

What does DNA have to do with serpent or devil?

 

[Bob_1000]

What does DNA have to do with serpent or devil?

The serpent, the devil and Satan are all the same thing.

Rev 20:2 (KJV) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The serpent is DNA personified as a serpent, the devil is DNA personified as a fallen angelic being. Satan is DNA personified as the accused of the brethren.

 

[Bob_1000]

I don’t base my belief about the devil on those numbers, I did a search on “the devil” yesterday just to see if it occurred 46 times so I could use it for evidence of divine inspiration and it did. There are many passages in the Bible that support the idea that the serpent/devil is human DNA.

The serpent on the pole was a foreshadow of Christ on the cross and it puzzled me for years how Jesus could be referred to a serpent and that’s when I began to dig into it.

 

[trophy33]

The serpent is DNA personified as a serpent, the devil is DNA personified as a fallen angelic being. Satan is DNA personified as the accused of the brethren.

I dont get it. What does DNA have to do with serpent or satan? You just put these words together but its not clear why.

 

[robycop3]

Agreed, which means some one moved them to do it. I don't see how you can deny this. The mathematical probability of that happening accidentally ONE TIME is absurb and it happened hundreds of times in the KJV.

Pure coincidence. The translators never mentioned any such thing in any of their writings.


The biblical number for love of any kind whether pure or harlot love is 13. What's the probability that the KJV translators accidentally wrote these 13 words in all caps "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" to describe the mother of harlots?

Do you think this was an accident?[/QUOTE]

They're wrotten in caps in several other versions as well.
Why?
BECAUSE THE GREEK WAS IN CAPS!

 

[robycop3]

Here's a few more.
Why does the KJV have the serpent speaking exactly 46 words to Eve in garden?
Why is the phrase "The Devil" found exactly 46 times in the KJV?
Why did it take 46 years to build the physical temple that foreshadowed the physical body of Jesus?
All of those are references to the 46 chromosomes that house human DNA. Did the KJV translators secretly know about DNA and secretly encode it into the bible or is it coincidence or is it divine inspiration?

The number 22 is the biblical number for mystery or the revelation of mysteries. That's why there are 22 chapters in the book of REVELATION. The word "mystery" is found exactly 22 times in the KJV... Coincidence or divine inspiration?

How many coincidences does there have to be before you will admit divine inspiration?

I've seen this garbage before. Once again, THERE ARE NO BIBLE CODES in any legitimate version!

And God warned against practicing numerology, which is just what you're doing!

Your KJVO myth is leading you down a SINFUL path ! For YOUR sake, please stop the bunk and see KJVO is from Satan! Your thralldom to the myth is causing you to believe more false stuff!

I see you're apparently a full preterist, which is yet another group of false doctrines! That's the wages of the KJVO myth!

 

[robycop3]

DNA is the serpent, aka the devil personified as fallen angelic being.

I’m about to start an 8 hour drive so I won’t be able to respond for quite a while.

May God watch over you on your drive!

 

[Der Alte]

Encyclopedias are great for cursory investigation, but they give little regarding any sort of depth. When I said a Hebrew grammar, I meant a book written for the purposes of learning the language. Any one worth their salt will discuss that Hebrew is a language that is built on concrete, sensory things with words like "nose" being used for anger and other abstract concepts being expressed similarly. And this doesn't have to do with being "so difficult to translate" but realities when translating across languages period. There is no swapping one word for another as if every language is simply a composite of a fixed vocabulary and words that are close approximates in the target language usually have some dimensions or connotations not truly fit to the original language. Languages function differently, with English being primarily an abstract, grammatical language and Hebrew being primarily a concrete, contextual language.

I'm glad to learn that God left us an OT that cannot be accurately translated and everyone has to decide for themselves what the words actually mean.

 

[Strong in Him]

Here's a few more.
Why does the KJV have the serpent speaking exactly 46 words to Eve in garden?

No idea; how many are there in the Hebrew OT?

Why is the phrase "The Devil" found exactly 46 times in the KJV?

No idea.
But I would say that it's not significant: i) Does that include "Lucifer", "Satan" and "Beelzebub"? ii) How many are there in the Hebrew and Greek? iii) Why only the KJV?

Here's a few more.
Why did it take 46 years to build the physical temple that foreshadowed the physical body of Jesus?

Building problems? Lack of resources? Too complex a design?
If that's how long it took, that's how long it took.
And it didn't "foreshadow the physical body of Jesus; for that analogy to work, Mary would have had to have been pregnant for 46 years.

All of those are references to the 46 chromosomes that house human DNA.

That is a HUGE leap, and and example of reading into Scripture what you want to read into it.

Here's a few more.
Did the KJV translators secretly know about DNA and secretly encode it into the bible

Ummm, were DNA studies and discoveries known about in the early 1600s? Doubt it very much?
Would they have encoded it into the Bible? Why; and for what purpose? The Bible is not a scientific text book; it is a book that reveals God. And Scripture says that God has made himself KNOWN and his word CLEAR - that means, not encoded into some secret language that only a few can discover.

Here's a few more.
or is it coincidence or is it divine inspiration?

No, it's a result of someone saying "oooh, the number 46 appears a few times, and there are 46 chromosomes - that must mean something." It's man's conclusion/assumption not God's revelation.

Here's a few more.
The number 22 is the biblical number for mystery or the revelation of mysteries.

Is it?
Evidence?

Here's a few more.
That's why there are 22 chapters in the book of REVELATION. The word "mystery" is found exactly 22 times in the KJV... Coincidence or divine inspiration?

Coincidence.
You do know, I suppose, that there were no chapter divisions in the Greek; these were added much later by HUMANS rather than revealed by God. Yes, they were added before the KV was produced - but the early Bibles, and scrolls of Revelation, would not have had them.

So it's marginally possible that someone thought, the word "mystery" appears 22 times in the KJV so we'd better have 22 chapters in Revelation - but not very likely. Why Revelation? Why don't the Gospels have 22 chapters, made up of 22 verses? Why aren't there 22 Psalms, or Proverbs, or 22 commandments?

How many coincidences does there have to be before you will admit divine inspiration?

ALL translations of God's word are inspired - NIV, RSV, NRSV, KJV, New American Bible etc etc.
If you are relying on a series of recurring numbers and the amount of times a word appears in one translation of the Bible to prove inspiration; if the work or the Holy Spirit is not enough for you, you're on very shaky ground.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don’t base my belief about the devil on those numbers, I did a search on “the devil” yesterday just to see if it occurred 46 times so I could use it for evidence of divine inspiration and it did. There are many passages in the Bible that support the idea that the serpent/devil is human DNA.

Nonsense.
DNA is what every human being has - ALL humans were created by God in his image. Christians - Holy, born again, Spirit filled Children of God - still have DNA. We do not lose our DNA when we become born again. If human DNA were the devil, EVERYONE would have, and would have always had, the devil living inside them.
Lucifer/Satan/the Devil was originally an angel of light, also created by God since he made all things. He was kicked out of heaven for trying, and failing, to overthrow God and seize his power. The devil has been defeated by Jesus on the cross, and Jesus also drove out demons. If human DNA had been defeated on the cross, either we'd all be perfect or we'd all be dead.

 

[Strong in Him]

The serpent on the pole was a foreshadow of Christ on the cross and it puzzled me for years how Jesus could be referred to a serpent and that’s when I began to dig into it.

Jesus is, and was, not referred to as a serpent - the devil was, Revelation 20:2. It wasn't Jesus who was in the Garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve to disobey God.

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they spoke against God and grumbled about the food, or lack of it. They were ungrateful, did not appreciate their deliverance from Egypt - which they themselves had asked for - and did not trust God. So he sent poisonous snakes to bite them, Numbers 21:6. When people started dying, those who were left repented and asked Moses to pray that God would deliver them from the snakes. God told Moses to make a snake out of bronze and put it onto a pole; anyone who looked at that snake would live. The Israelites had to have faith that looking at an image of the thing that was killing them, would save them; if they had been bitten by poisonous snakes and did not look at the image of the bronze snake, they would have died.

Jesus told Nicodemus that just as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on the pole, so that everyone could see it and be enabled to be healed, so the Son of Man would be lifted up (on the cross) for everyone to see. Jesus did not die in some dark corner, so that no one would see it and they could spread false stories that he had not died or suffered at all. He, the giver of life and source of healing, would be raised high on a cross for everyone to see - and at the time, they saw his agony and humiliation too.
You could say that when we look at the cross - an instrument of torture and death - it is then we receive life. John says that the cross demonstrates God's love, 1 John 3:16. It is the cross which sets us free, by which we are forgiven and which gives us victory over the evil one. Jesus was glorified on the cross.

This does not say, or mean, that Jesus was a serpent.

 

[Bob_1000]

Pure coincidence. The translators never mentioned any such thing in any of their writings.


The biblical number for love of any kind whether pure or harlot love is 13. What's the probability that the KJV translators accidentally wrote these 13 words in all caps "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" to describe the mother of harlots?

Do you think this was an accident?

They're wrotten in caps in several other versions as well.
Why?
BECAUSE THE GREEK WAS IN CAPS!

The KJV is the only version that capitalizes THIRTEEN words. NASB - 14, NKJV - 15, HCSB - 15 times.

 

[Bob_1000]

I've seen this garbage before. Once again, THERE ARE NO BIBLE CODES in any legitimate version!

And God warned against practicing numerology, which is just what you're doing!

I don't know where you come up with this stuff. God uses numbers from Genesis to Revelation. In the story of Abraham sending his servant to find Isaac a wife, why did the bible even mention that he took TEN camels with him?

If you can't see these things then you, for you're own sake, should not comment on the inspiration or non-inspiration of an bible. Seriously you're heaping judgement on top of your head.

Your KJVO myth is leading you down a SINFUL path ! For YOUR sake, please stop the bunk and see KJVO is from Satan! Your thralldom to the myth is causing you to believe more false stuff!

What if you really don't know much about the bible and you're wrong.... and you are wrong, do you realize that you're calling the path the Holy Spirit lead me down "a sinful path"? May God have mercy on you.

I see you're apparently a full preterist, which is yet another group of false doctrines! That's the wages of the KJVO myth!

There's no doubt the KJV teaches that all has been fulfilled.

 

[Bob_1000]

No idea; how many are there in the Hebrew OT?



No idea.
But I would say that it's not significant: i) Does that include "Lucifer", "Satan" and "Beelzebub"? ii) How many are there in the Hebrew and Greek? iii) Why only the KJV?



Building problems? Lack of resources? Too complex a design?
If that's how long it took, that's how long it took.
And it didn't "foreshadow the physical body of Jesus; for that analogy to work, Mary would have had to have been pregnant for 46 years.



That is a HUGE leap, and and example of reading into Scripture what you want to read into it.



Ummm, were DNA studies and discoveries known about in the early 1600s? Doubt it very much?
Would they have encoded it into the Bible? Why; and for what purpose? The Bible is not a scientific text book; it is a book that reveals God. And Scripture says that God has made himself KNOWN and his word CLEAR - that means, not encoded into some secret language that only a few can discover.



No, it's a result of someone saying "oooh, the number 46 appears a few times, and there are 46 chromosomes - that must mean something." It's man's conclusion/assumption not God's revelation.



Is it?
Evidence?



Coincidence.
You do know, I suppose, that there were no chapter divisions in the Greek; these were added much later by HUMANS rather than revealed by God. Yes, they were added before the KV was produced - but the early Bibles, and scrolls of Revelation, would not have had them.

So it's marginally possible that someone thought, the word "mystery" appears 22 times in the KJV so we'd better have 22 chapters in Revelation - but not very likely. Why Revelation? Why don't the Gospels have 22 chapters, made up of 22 verses? Why aren't there 22 Psalms, or Proverbs, or 22 commandments?



ALL translations of God's word are inspired - NIV, RSV, NRSV, KJV, New American Bible etc etc.
If you are relying on a series of recurring numbers and the amount of times a word appears in one translation of the Bible to prove inspiration; if the work or the Holy Spirit is not enough for you, you're on very shaky ground.

I'm beginning to think you're right on this - "ALL translations of God's word are inspired - NIV, RSV, NRSV, KJV, New American Bible etc etc." It's starting to look more and more like these newer translations are the New Testament version of the fiery serpents that God's sent because the children of Israel loathed the bread that God gave them.