I was never interested in Christianity out of love for God.

[somewherewithoutdanger]

The whole premise of Christianity is that if you don't believe in Jesus (which in accordance with Christians is denying salvation) you will not get eternal bliss and instead eternal torture. That's how it's portrayed, that's probably the biggest message in the NT and that's what Christians overall focus with when preaching. I am only a Christian because logically I guess it's makes the most since out of the other main religions. Also because there is the big "deal" you have going on if you're wrong and that Jesus and God is real.


the Bible discuses plenty of things that await a non believer like the story of Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man was in constant torment and agony. The known parable is in Luke.

Matthew 3:7 discuses the importance of repentance

So the idea that it's either torture or belief is a pretty simple thing.

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?"

Anyway besides the implication God/Jesus desiring suffering (Acts 9:16), (Phil 1:29) (2 Corinthians 11:23) (Romans 8:36)

I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”


For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely again and again.

As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

There has always been this emphasis on suffering for Christ that I never understood. Why is suffering for an infinite God a good thing? Because he loved everybody and got killed himself? Why would he want his followers following behind? Why would God desire that? Note I'm not discussing simple free will or just allowing things happening.

Now let me be clear. I do not hate God. I just don't feel love for God and just treat religion as a belief system rather than placing emotional feelings into it. I would love anybody's input on this. Am I being a bad Christian?

 

[Petros2015]

The whole premise of Christianity is that if you don't believe in Jesus (which in accordance with Christians is denying salvation) you will not get eternal bliss and instead eternal torture. That's how it's portrayed

 

[public hermit]

The whole premise of Christianity is that if you don't believe in Jesus (which in accordance with Christians is denying salvation) you will not get eternal bliss and instead eternal torture. That's how it's portrayed, that's probably the biggest message in the NT and that's what Christians overall focus with when preaching. I am only a Christian because logically I guess it's makes the most since out of the other main religions. Also because there is the big "deal" you have going on if you're wrong and that Jesus and God is real.


the Bible discuses plenty of things that await a non believer like the story of Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man was in constant torment and agony. The known parable is in Luke.

Matthew 3:7 discuses the importance of repentance

So the idea that it's either torture or belief is a pretty simple thing.

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?"

Anyway besides the implication God/Jesus desiring suffering (Acts 9:16), (Phil 1:29) (2 Corinthians 11:23) (Romans 8:36)

I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”


For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely again and again.

As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

There has always been this emphasis on suffering for Christ that I never understood. Why is suffering for an infinite God a good thing? Because he loved everybody and got killed himself? Why would he want his followers following behind? Why would God desire that? Note I'm not discussing simple free will or just allowing things happening.

Now let me be clear. I do not hate God. I just don't feel love for God and just treat religion as a belief system rather than placing emotional feelings into it. I would love anybody's input on this. Am I being a bad Christian?

You're not a bad Christian. Your post reminds me of Simone Weil. If you have not read her, I would definitely suggest it. Although she had a deep relationship with Christ, she intentionally remained outside the church (RCC) due to its historical record of doing things obviously contrary to Christ and condemning others. There is some correspondence between her and a priest (who basically functioned as her Confessor), where she lays out her reasoning. She also has helpful insights into the role of suffering. Her book Waiting for God is a good start. Gravity and Grace is good, as well.

 

[somewherewithoutdanger]

You're not a bad Christian. Your post reminds me of Simone Weil. If you have not read her, I would definitely suggest it. Although she had a deep relationship with Christ, she intentionally remained outside the church (RCC) due to its historical record of doing things obviously contrary to Christ and condemning others. There is some correspondence between her and a priest (who basically functioned as her Confessor), where she lays out her reasoning. She also has helpful insights into the role of suffering. Her book Waiting for God is a good start. Gravity and Grace is good, as well.

Okay thank you. I feel like whenever I tell people I don't love God I just get strange reactions all of the time. Will check out this author btw

 

[Petros2015]

I know that's how it's portrayed.
But,
"For now we see only
a reflection as in a mirror;
Then we shall see face to face.
Now I know in part;
Then I shall know fully,
Even as I am fully known."

 

[public hermit]

Okay thank you. I feel like whenever I tell people I don't love God I just get strange reactions all of the time. Will check out this author btw

Faith is a process. Not everyone's process looks the same. Unfortunately, there is a tendency in Christian circles to make it seem as if everything is obvious and anyone who dissents is simply not seeing the obvious. That's understandable since Christians tend to mistake dogma for reality. If you're a bit outside the norm, consider yourself blessed and keep searching. God loves outsiders.

 

[Petros2015]

I feel like whenever I tell people I don't love God I just get strange reactions all of the time.

It is difficult; I think that's partly why God sent His son to us - God is invisible, omnipresent. Humans love humans easier (of course, they also occasionally crucify them...) But, in some ways Christ is an offer of relatability, perhaps, to help fulfill that commandment

 

[Sketcher]

There has always been this emphasis on suffering for Christ that I never understood. Why is suffering for an infinite God a good thing? Because he loved everybody and got killed himself? Why would he want his followers following behind? Why would God desire that? Note I'm not discussing simple free will or just allowing things happening.

Since the world is so bent, people will suffer for following Christ. Unfortunate, but true. The suffering isn't good, but at least in the case of suffering for following Christ, it is rewarded. And that is good news. It has also been used to create openings for people who wouldn't hear the Gospel or understand it to see it in a powerful way. So, the bad happens, but God is able to get utility out of it (rather than no good resulting), and he rewards the faithful who find themselves caught up in those painful situations. For a more intimate understanding of this, you might wish to read the accounts written about the Christian martyrs, or the accounts of the faithful confessors (those who were physically abused for the faith, but weren't killed).

The whole premise of Christianity is that if you don't believe in Jesus (which in accordance with Christians is denying salvation) you will not get eternal bliss and instead eternal torture. That's how it's portrayed, that's probably the biggest message in the NT and that's what Christians overall focus with when preaching. I am only a Christian because logically I guess it's makes the most since out of the other main religions. Also because there is the big "deal" you have going on if you're wrong and that Jesus and God is real.

There's a lot more to Christianity than that.

 

[somewherewithoutdanger]

Since the world is so bent, people will suffer for following Christ. Unfortunate, but true. The suffering isn't good, but at least in the case of suffering for following Christ, it is rewarded. And that is good news. It has also been used to create openings for people who wouldn't hear the Gospel or understand it to see it in a powerful way. So, the bad happens, but God is able to get utility out of it (rather than no good resulting), and he rewards the faithful who find themselves caught up in those painful situations. For a more intimate understanding of this, you might wish to read the accounts written about the Christian martyrs, or the accounts of the faithful confessors (those who were physically abused for the faith, but weren't killed).


There's a lot more to Christianity than that.

Saying the "premise" of something is not saying that's what the entire thing is. I never said "Christianity is all about bla bla". I won't quote the numerous of verses saying suffering is a good thing (at least in terms because of Jesus) so I'll just leave that statement alone. And honestly I'd rather not. Most confessors and martyrs were happy that they were being persecuted since they believed it made them favored by God. Hence why early church members tried getting themselves killed. Suffering is intertwined with Christianity hence why I don't feel emotionally attached.

 

[somewherewithoutdanger]

Faith is a process. Not everyone's process looks the same. Unfortunately, there is a tendency in Christian circles to make it seem as if everything is obvious and anyone who dissents is simply not seeing the obvious. That's understandable since Christians tend to mistake dogma for reality. If you're a bit outside the norm, consider yourself blessed and keep searching. God loves outsiders.

Amazingly worded. Thank you so much for not being judgmental about how I practice my faith. I really appreciate it. You're a very ingenious individual.

 

[Sabertooth]

View attachment 308533

(Your image is reversed...)

 

[BobRyan]

Now let me be clear. I do not hate God. I just don't feel love for God and just treat religion as a belief system rather than placing emotional feelings into it. I would love anybody's input on this. Am I being a bad Christian?

You are being a very very new Christian who figured out that given a choice between the lake of fire in Rev 20 or eternal life - as seen in Rev 21 and 22.... you'll take "door number 2... eternal life".

Ok I agree with you - that is "The easy part".

====================

Now lets get a little "bigger picture.

1. Rev 12- there was war in heaven and Satan and his angels were expelled.

2. Gen 1-2 - God created a perfect sinless world - no disease or death, paradise for Adam and Eve created in 7 real days.

3. Then Gen 3 - Adam and Eve chose rebellion against God - and were doomed. Satan assumed conrol of Earth at that point - taking Adam's domain.

2 Cor 4:4 Satan is the "god of this world"
4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Adam turned the world over to Satan - when he lost his domain.
Luke 4:
5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory, for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I want. 7 Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” 8 Jesus replied to him, “It is written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

John 18:
35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests handed You over to me; what have You done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this purpose I have been born, and for this I have come into the world: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.”

Job 1:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But reach out with Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will certainly curse You to Your face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not reach out and put your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

Very interesting online-read - a short condensed "narration of everything" from the fall of Lucifer to the end of the world The Story of Redemption

But the best way to find Love for God is by getting know Him. Read the Gospels... read this world-class online-free commentary on the life of Christ ... you will find love for God by taking time to see the person of Christ -- The Desire of Ages

 

[Petros2015]

(Your image is reversed...)

I know; but not when I am wearing it and see myself in the mirror
Which is when I need it the most

 

[somewherewithoutdanger]

You are being a very very new Christian who figured out that given a choice between the lake of fire in Rev 20 or eternal life - as seen in Rev 21 and 22.... you'll take "door number 2... eternal life".

Ok I agree with you - that is "The easy part".

====================

Now lets get a little "bigger picture.

1. Rev 12- there was war in heaven and Satan and his angels were expelled.

2. Gen 1-2 - God created a perfect sinless world - no disease or death, paradise for Adam and Eve created in 7 real days.

3. Then Gen 3 - Adam and Eve chose rebellion against God - and were doomed. Satan assumed conrol of Earth at that point - taking Adam's domain.

2 Cor 4:4 Satan is the "god of this world"
4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Adam turned the world over to Satan - when he lost his domain.
Luke 4:
5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory, for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I want. 7 Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” 8 Jesus replied to him, “It is written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

John 18:
35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests handed You over to me; what have You done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this purpose I have been born, and for this I have come into the world: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.”

Job 1:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But reach out with Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will certainly curse You to Your face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not reach out and put your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

Very interesting online-read - a short condensed "narration of everything" from the fall of Lucifer to the end of the world The Story of Redemption

But the best way to find Love for God is by getting know Him. Read the Gospels... read this world-class online-free commentary on the life of Christ ... you will find love for God by taking time to see the person of Christ -- The Desire of Ages

Would not being a new a Christian surprise you?

 

[fhansen]

The whole premise of Christianity is that if you don't believe in Jesus (which in accordance with Christians is denying salvation) you will not get eternal bliss and instead eternal torture. That's how it's portrayed, that's probably the biggest message in the NT and that's what Christians overall focus with when preaching. I am only a Christian because logically I guess it's makes the most since out of the other main religions. Also because there is the big "deal" you have going on if you're wrong and that Jesus and God is real.


the Bible discuses plenty of things that await a non believer like the story of Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man was in constant torment and agony. The known parable is in Luke.

Matthew 3:7 discuses the importance of repentance

So the idea that it's either torture or belief is a pretty simple thing.

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?"

Anyway besides the implication God/Jesus desiring suffering (Acts 9:16), (Phil 1:29) (2 Corinthians 11:23) (Romans 8:36)

I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”


For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely again and again.

As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

There has always been this emphasis on suffering for Christ that I never understood. Why is suffering for an infinite God a good thing? Because he loved everybody and got killed himself? Why would he want his followers following behind? Why would God desire that? Note I'm not discussing simple free will or just allowing things happening.

Now let me be clear. I do not hate God. I just don't feel love for God and just treat religion as a belief system rather than placing emotional feelings into it. I would love anybody's input on this. Am I being a bad Christian?

Love for God is the goal, it’s the mark of human perfection, our purpose.To the extent that we’ve achieved it, with the help of grace, we understand the gospel, the reason and motivation for why Jesus came, the nature and will of God. To know God is to love Him. Fear may be the beginning but as love enters the scene, fear is cast out, as the Bible says. There’s simply nothing to fear in love, nothing to fear as we love. More than anything God opposes the pride and arrogance that, themselves, oppose love, that oppose Him, and foster sin/harm to neighbor. Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, had this to say,
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

 

[somewherewithoutdanger]

Love for God is the goal, it’s the mark of human perfection, our purpose.To the extent that we’ve achieved it, with the help of grace, we understand the gospel, the reason and motivation for why Jesus came, the nature and will of God. To know God is to love Him. Fear may be the beginning but as love enters the scene, fear is cast out, as the Bible says. There’s simply nothing to fear in love, nothing to fear as we love. More than anything God opposes the pride and arrogance that, themselves, oppose love, that oppose Him, and foster sin/harm to neighbor. Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, had this to say,
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

It's just um interesting? Love God but remember he causes suffering for some "higher good", love God but remember if you sin or screw up he can and will punish you etc

 

[fhansen]

It's just um interesting? Love God but remember he causes suffering for some "higher good", love God but remember if you sin or screw up he can and will punish you etc

The lack of love, the preference for darkness of this world causes the suffering that a Christian may experience if they stand up for love and truth and justice. And God wishes to punish no one. Our own failure to love is our own punishment.There are no lovers in hell.

 

[Tolworth John]

I just don't feel love for God and just treat religion as a belief system rather than placing emotional feelings into it.

Turn it around.
How would you react to a boyfrien who didn't love you but saw you as a female compainion/girlfriend?

How does your belief systen affect your behaviour?
it's an old challenge, if you were arrested, accused of being a Christian, is there evidence to convict you of that charge.

 

[somewherewithoutdanger]

Turn it around.
How would you react to a boyfrien who didn't love you but saw you as a female compainion/girlfriend?

How does your belief systen affect your behaviour?
it's an old challenge, if you were arrested, accused of being a Christian, is there evidence to convict you of that charge.

In response to this I would say you don't have to necessarily love somebody to date them. Also a relationship is quite different from religion because there isn't a huge consequence from leaving

 

[Petros2015]

It's just um interesting? Love God but remember he causes suffering for some "higher good", love God but remember if you sin or screw up he can and will punish you etc

This is partly why I embraced the Orthodox view - to minimally paraphrase: Heaven and Hell could be both relative to who you become. Or, as I have sometimes mused myself "sin may be in some spiritual sense, combustible". Thus, some spiritual transformation is necessary. As an adulterer can only find pain in the face of love, so a sinner can only find pain or shame in the face of God who we are told 'is Love'. Does such a person call Heaven, Heaven? Or do they call it Hell...? If they call it Hell, what place can be found for them? Who we spend our lives becoming is important. And that will be determined by who and what we truly follow.

As for suffering in this life, Tolstoy took some of Christ's teachings to an extreme to the exclusion of others (and often to the exclusion I think of the spiritual aid that God would have gladly given him). But, he didn't get everything wrong, and I think some things he said very very well:

In Tolstoy's, What I Believe

I saw that Christ does not require us to turn the other cheek, and to give away our cloak, in order to make us suffer; but He teaches us not to resist evil, and warns us that doing so may involve personal suffering. Does a father, on seeing his son set out on a long journey, tell him to pass sleepless nights, to eat little, to get wet through, or to freeze? Will he not rather say to him, ‘Go, and if on the road you are cold or hungry, do not be discouraged but go on’?

In Paul's letter to the Romans

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Or in this - at the end. Does Schindler "suffer" for what he gave away? Or for what he kept?

25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

To me Christianity acknowledges suffering, but does not encourage it for it's own sake
And wants it used for the right purpose
The purpose is to stand before Love
As a Diamond
Rather than Coal