Genesis 2:7 man became a living , when does this occur.

[Adventist Dissident]

It seems to so that the flesh such as animals or spiritual beings such as angels which have life w/o the breath, that the breath is confined to spiritual things and not applicable to human gvmnt.

not sure i understand this, please explain further

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

not sure i understand this, please explain further

It’s already been determined that the scripture in question is off topic to the op, and the question and therefore the thread, is moot.

 

[eleos1954]

well .... it's a good thing your mother thought differently .... else you might not be around to have this and other conversations.

The unborn are the most vulnerable among us. They don't get a "say so". They are indeed unique at the moment of conception ... their DNA is set in place .... they are dependent on their mother util birth and her and/or others util they can care for themselves.

Really shows the depravity mankind has reached.

Even so .... come Lord Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

you are getting my point, the same conditions that exist at the end of existence also exist at the beginning of our existence.

Oh,ok-didn't notice I got that point but...ok.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

It’s already been determined that the scripture in question is off topic to the op, and the question and therefore the thread, is moot.

there seems to a lot of venom for no apparent reason. could you further explain your statement

 

[Adventist Dissident]

well .... it's a good thing your mother thought differently .... else you might not be around to have this and other conversations.

The unborn are the most vulnerable among us. They don't get a "say so". They are indeed unique at the moment of conception ... their DNA is set in place .... they are dependent on their mother util birth and her and/or others util they can care for themselves.

Really shows the depravity mankind has reached.

Even so .... come Lord Jesus.

not a valid argument.

 

[eleos1954]

not a valid argument.

we know how this works .... the body tells us when life begins.

egg & sperm meet ... fertilization occurs

next the placenta forms - that is .... the body recognizes life has begun .... the placenta will not form unless life has begun .... because that is the function of the placenta ... to help support the life of the baby

In general, once the fertilized egg implants in the uterine wall, the placenta begins forming.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

we know how this works .... the body tells us when life begins.

egg & sperm meet ... fertilization occurs

next the placenta forms - that is .... the body recognizes life has begun .... the placenta will not form unless life has begun .... because that is the function of the placenta ... to help support the life of the baby

In general, once the fertilized egg implants in the uterine wall, the placenta begins forming.

1 Thess 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture says plainly we are body, soul, Spirit. We must have all 3 present to be considered a person. If one of the parts is missing you are not considered person or alive. AT conception you DO NOT HAVE A BODY, Therefore you are not considered a person and not considered alive. At conception the formation process begins. When the soul and spirit enter the body then you are considered alive and a person, biblically. When one of them is missing you are not a person.

 

[eleos1954]

1 Thess 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture says plainly we are body, soul, Spirit. We must have all 3 present to be considered a person. If one of the parts is missing you are not considered person or alive. AT conception you DO NOT HAVE A BODY, Therefore you are not considered a person and not considered alive. At conception the formation process begins. When the soul and spirit enter the body then you are considered alive and a person, biblically. When one of them is missing you are not a person.

ok ... it that is the thought ..... then at what point does the baby have a body? At what point does a baby become a person?

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Again .... the placentas function is to support life ..... it doe's not form unless there is life to support.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

ok ... it that is the thought ..... then at what point does the baby have a body? At what point does a baby become a person?

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Again .... the placentas function is to support life ..... it doe's not form unless there is life to support.

The whole point of this post is discussed that question. I believe that Genesis 2:7 gives us a clue. When the spirit of God or the breath comes into the body. In Genesis 2 in the creation of the original person the spirit and the soul come in at the same time. That could be the case in the womb or it could be a step process I don't know for certain. I do know that scripture says in Hebrews 10:5 that when Christ entered the world a body was prepared for him. By implication the body was prepared and then he entered in to it. Meaning there is no consciousness for a period of time. It's when the consciousness or soul enters the body that one would be considered a person.

 

[eleos1954]

The whole point of this post is discussed that question. I believe that Genesis 2:7 gives us a clue. When the spirit of God or the breath comes into the body. In Genesis 2 in the creation of the original person the spirit and the soul come in at the same time. That could be the case in the womb or it could be a step process I don't know for certain. I do know that scripture says in Hebrews 10:5 that when Christ entered the world a body was prepared for him. By implication the body was prepared and then he entered in to it. Meaning there is no consciousness for a period of time. It's when the consciousness or soul enters the body that one would be considered a person.

In the case of Christ He started out as a fetus in the womb (just like we all do). His body developed in Mary.

Jesus was conceived by a woman through the Holy Spirit .... because He needed to become human. He needed to go through the same developing process to be born a human.

the body was prepared and then he entered in to it

Jesus in the womb developed just like we all do ... the only difference being He was supernaturally conceived through the Holy Spirit.

In Luke 1.31–3, Gabriel addresses Mary. 'Do not be afraid, Mary', he says, 'for you have found favour with God. ' 22 He continues: 'And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.

so are you saying Jesus was not a human being until He left the womb?

No, He was a human being in the making ... it's the process God put in place for humans to reproduce .... a physical process of reproducing. This process allows for a body to develop.

Looking at the context of Hebrews 10:5 it becomes clear that the body prepared for Jesus is prepared for sacrifice on the cross. And like Exodus where the nailing of the slave’s ear to the wooden doorpost is the act of an adult, not connected with the slave’s birth, so Christ’s preparation for the nailing of his body to the cross is the act of an adult, not connected with Christ’s birth.

5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ “coming into the world” of course includes his birth as well (see Gal. 4:4. 2 Co.5:21etc.) but it is also adult Jesus coming into the world of the Jews.

The writer of Hebrews’ own explanation “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ” is that this passage “but a body have you prepared for me;” is about the offering of the body of the adult Jesus, for whom his whole life, not just his birth, was a preparation.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

In the case of Christ He started out as a fetus in the womb (just like we all do). His body developed in Mary.

Jesus was conceived by a woman through the Holy Spirit .... because He needed to become human. He needed to go through the same developing process to be born a human.



Jesus in the womb developed just like we all do ... the only difference being He was supernaturally conceived through the Holy Spirit.

In Luke 1.31–3, Gabriel addresses Mary. 'Do not be afraid, Mary', he says, 'for you have found favour with God. ' 22 He continues: 'And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.

so are you saying Jesus was not a human being until He left the womb?

No, He was a human being in the making ... it's the process God put in place for humans to reproduce .... a physical process of reproducing. This process allows for a body to develop.

Looking at the context of Hebrews 10:5 it becomes clear that the body prepared for Jesus is prepared for sacrifice on the cross. And like Exodus where the nailing of the slave’s ear to the wooden doorpost is the act of an adult, not connected with the slave’s birth, so Christ’s preparation for the nailing of his body to the cross is the act of an adult, not connected with Christ’s birth.

5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and buernt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ “coming into the world” of course includes his birth as well (see Gal. 4:4. 2 Co.5:21etc.) but it is also adult Jesus coming into the world of the Jews.

The writer of Hebrews’ own explanation “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ” is that this passage “but a body have you prepared for me;” is about the offering of the body of the adult Jesus, for whom his whole life, not just his birth, was a preparation.

1. Heb 10:5 makes it clear that it is talking about HiS entering the world, the purpose for entering the world is not in dispute. something was created to make that possible

2. I was going to have you look at the encounter between Mary and Elizabeth in Luke 1, but upon further review I am not as certian about this. I was under the initial assumption that the grammer made a distinction between John the baptist at 6 months and Jesus at the age he was, presumably not more then 6 weeks in the womb. but that may be a translation issue. rather then a grammer issue.

 

[eleos1954]

1. Heb 10:5 makes it clear that it is talking about HiS entering the world, the purpose for entering the world is not in dispute. something was created to make that possible

2. I was going to have you look at the encounter between Mary and Elizabeth in Luke 1, but upon further review I am not as certian about this. I was under the initial assumption that the grammer made a distinction between John the baptist at 6 months and Jesus at the age he was, presumably not more then 6 weeks in the womb. but that may be a translation issue. rather then a grammer issue.

He entered into the world in the form of a man ... fully God .... fully human. He took on the form of man by the human birth process through Mary (via the holy spirit) .... it was how God was able to become human.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

He entered into the world in the form of a man ... fully God .... fully human. He took on the form of man by the human birth process through Mary (via the holy spirit) .... it was how God was able to become human.

that is not what it says. it is specifically talking about his body being prepared for his birth.

 

[coffee4u]

I think I might have posed this question last year sometime, but I want to post it again.
About 8 years ago I came to the conclusion that the Mainline Christian teaching of the subject of when life begins is incorrect. After some leading by the Lord on the subject and the study of the Scripture, there is no way I can support the belief that life begins at conception. Scripture does not support it. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says life begins at conception. There is a text that says very specifically when life, the very first life, began. Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

1 Does this text apply to all life?
2. Is this a model for how life is formed in the womb? the first formation then life is breathed into body?
3. Does the word formed mean conscious or unconscious.
4. In all the major text that are used to support life beginning at conception, the word formed us used? does this mean conscience or unconscience?
5. when the breath leave the body it is called death, post-life. Is the part BEFORE the breath enters the body pre-life?
6. If you believe life begins when the blood come into the body, then when is that and what do you call the condition before the blood?

There is indeed scripture that indicates life begins at conception or at implantation.
Psalm 139
3 For You made the parts inside me. You put me together inside my mother. 14 I will give thanks to You, for the greatness of the way I was made brings fear. Your works are great and my soul knows it very well. 15 My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret and put together with care in the deep part of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw me before I was put together. And all the days of my life were written in Your book before any of them came to be.

or as the NIV puts it
16: Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book

God sees us as people before we are formed. Now this could be argued to be conception or implantation, but it is before we are formed into our human likeness. It isn't our place to decide when this occurs.

The newly fertilized ovum develops at a rapid pace. There is already a heart beating by 6 weeks with the beginnings of arms, legs and facial features. By week 9 the fetus even has fingernails and is opening and closing fully formed hands. By week 12 the baby is fully formed. All organs are in place and gender can be seen on an ultrasound.
At this point the mother is 3 months pregnant and is probably telling her wider circle of friends about the coming baby. If God sees our unformed body, this takes place long, long before the 3 month point since by then we are fully formed.

To say a recognizable baby with working arms, legs, organs is not a live human being is to be in denial. In the 1950's we can forgive people for thinking that at 3 months the baby was probably some blob of tissue, they did not have the equipment that we have today, but today there is no excuse. Now we have 3D imaging and cameras that show the humanity at even 8 weeks gestation. You can get a blood test done that shows if the baby is male and female. You can see the unborn reacting to sounds outside the womb and pulling back to pain. The world of the unborn is very human and very much alive.

 

[eleos1954]

that is not what it says. it is specifically talking about his body being prepared for his birth.

Psalm 40:6 says, “You have prepared ears for Me”, and this was quoted in Hebrews 10:5 as, “a body You have prepared for Me”.

6Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but my ears You have opened.
Burnt offerings and sin offerings
You did not require.7Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll:8I delight to do Your will, O my God;

Your law is within my heart.”

Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You prepared for Me.

prepared .... a human body (through a human woman) prepared for His ultimate sacrifice

 

[apollosdtr]

I think I might have posed this question last year sometime, but I want to post it again.
About 8 years ago I came to the conclusion that the Mainline Christian teaching of the subject of when life begins is incorrect. After some leading by the Lord on the subject and the study of the Scripture, there is no way I can support the belief that life begins at conception. Scripture does not support it. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says life begins at conception. There is a text that says very specifically when life, the very first life, began. Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

1 Does this text apply to all life?
2. Is this a model for how life is formed in the womb? the first formation then life is breathed into body?
3. Does the word formed mean conscious or unconscious.
4. In all the major text that are used to support life beginning at conception, the word formed us used? does this mean conscience or unconscience?
5. when the breath leave the body it is called death, post-life. Is the part BEFORE the breath enters the body pre-life?
6. If you believe life begins when the blood come into the body, then when is that and what do you call the condition before the blood?

I think Genesis 1 has more to do with the Spirit brooding upon the face of the water than anything else. Since sea water has the minerals that go into making mankind... except for nitrogen, which might have come from the backwards planet Venus... the theory of the cauldron of waters in Druidism makes sense. And so does the theme of man arising from the sea, or the primordial ooze. The dust of the ground is nothing more than a handful of minerals. So then... isn't the breath of God the electricity and heat that caused the minerals to combine the way they did?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

There is indeed scripture that indicates life begins at conception or at implantation.
Psalm 139
3 For You made the parts inside me. You put me together inside my mother. 14 I will give thanks to You, for the greatness of the way I was made brings fear. Your works are great and my soul knows it very well. 15 My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret and put together with care in the deep part of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw me before I was put together. And all the days of my life were written in Your book before any of them came to be.

or as the NIV puts it
16: Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book

God sees us as people before we are formed. Now this could be argued to be conception or implantation, but it is before we are formed into our human likeness. It isn't our place to decide when this occurs.

The newly fertilized ovum develops at a rapid pace. There is already a heart beating by 6 weeks with the beginnings of arms, legs and facial features. By week 9 the fetus even has fingernails and is opening and closing fully formed hands. By week 12 the baby is fully formed. All organs are in place and gender can be seen on an ultrasound.
At this point the mother is 3 months pregnant and is probably telling her wider circle of friends about the coming baby. If God sees our unformed body, this takes place long, long before the 3 month point since by then we are fully formed.

To say a recognizable baby with working arms, legs, organs is not a live human being is to be in denial. In the 1950's we can forgive people for thinking that at 3 months the baby was probably some blob of tissue, they did not have the equipment that we have today, but today there is no excuse. Now we have 3D imaging and cameras that show the humanity at even 8 weeks gestation. You can get a blood test done that shows if the baby is male and female. You can see the unborn reacting to sounds outside the womb and pulling back to pain. The world of the unborn is very human and very much alive.

it says UNFORMED. To be a person you must be BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT 1 Thess 5:23

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I think Genesis 1 has more to do with the Spirit brooding upon the face of the water than anything else. Since sea water has the minerals that go into making mankind... except for nitrogen, which might have come from the backwards planet Venus... the theory of the cauldron of waters in Druidism makes sense. And so does the theme of man arising from the sea, or the primordial ooze. The dust of the ground is nothing more than a handful of minerals. So then... isn't the breath of God the electricity and heat that caused the minerals to combine the way they did?

What does Genesis 1 have to do with anything

 

[coffee4u]

it says UNFORMED. To be a person you must be BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT 1 Thess 5:23

And you know when that occurs do you? God came to you and personally told you when he gives each person their soul and spirit?

The writer said God saw him, knew him, before his body was formed. And secondly that his days had already been written in Gods book. God didn't see him as a blob or a leaf or as a table, but as a man.

He was a person. He was alive -before his body was even formed and it is fully formed with arms, legs, fingers, toes and organs by 12 weeks gestation.